jaxjace Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 i got a crazy theory, :unsure: Horus and every primarch and every original legion and every loyalist chapter has dna in a gene bank and is just sitting there waiting for the emperor to get up check his facebook, and fix the flaws. also if you all beleive hard enough the warp can be a HAPPY place.... sorry you were saying loken is a psyker? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2799784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 sorry you were saying loken is a psyker? Indeed i was...... or if he is, he's very very minorly psychic, like "deja vu" levels of psychic. What if the process that "kept dormant" his abilities also shielded him from the effects of being around a pariah, to an equal degree? I feel that Garro, Loken , Tarvitz, Qruze, Varren, and others were put through mental conditioning to suppress their psyker talents. This was done to them by their Legions on the orders given by the Emperor on Nikaea. This Suppression of their abilities was VERY successful. Only after going through the Hell that was Isstvan III, are the walls broken through. Is that not how brainwashing is often broken down, by the person going through some other mental trauma? Pg 159 of the Dark Heresy RPG, Latent Psykers Some have been known to flower into full-blown psychic ability---a phenomenon known as emerging---under stress, often with spectacular results. In Garro: Oath of Moment I think we see what happens to a Astartes when this process that "kept dormant" the psyker abilities is undone. Loken's mind is ripped WIDE OPEN. The effort to remember things causes him real pain. He cant remember who Torgodden is?!!? The force unleashed is more then a bit spectacular. The other thing about Brainwashing is that it is never perfect. The suppressed thoughts sometimes leak through the mental walls. Maybe just enough leaked through Garro's Walls to put him at your " very very minorly psychic, like "deja vu" levels of psychic" ? Also called Omicron Grade. Oh and most things i just said are my ideas and not cannon, encase anyone here is confused about that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2799819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja6fett Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I'm gonna say this again: They test you for that stuff. The whole bit in the Salamander series with that main character is considered a gigantic anomaly AND that Salamander is considerably younger than either Garro or Loken when that happens. I refuse to believe unless it's flat out stated in a Horus Heresy book that either of them could be psykers. Also, the stuff with Garro has more to do with the Emperor as a divine presence than any psyker nonsense on Garro's part. Especially considering how big a role Keeler and the Lectitio Divinatus played in that book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2799827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 That would work, Walkier, other than the fact that the Librarians weren't brainwashed. The Ultramarine Librarian that Garro picks up is entirely aware that he's psychic, and is consciously not using his powers. From that, it doesn't seem they brainwashed them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2799837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 That would work, Walkier, other than the fact that the Librarians weren't brainwashed. The Ultramarine Librarian that Garro picks up is entirely aware that he's psychic, and is consciously not using his powers. From that, it doesn't seem they brainwashed them. Well i agree with you actually to a point. I would say Ultramarine Legion seem to have gone on the "Honer" system. A fact that is throwing up red flags to me when i think about Roboute Guilliman. But just because the Smerfs were on the Honer system dose not mean the others were. Each Legion seems to have done their own thing. The Dark Angles completely ignored Edict of Nikaea. As did the 1k Sons. The Space Wolves cant see they are in Violation so they think it dose not apply to them. Non of this guarantees how the Luna Wolves, and others handled the situation. I don't think Horus would be as trusting of his "Sons" as Guilliman. Going to trust a bunch of "hive scum" with "wyrd" powers because they "swear" not to use them? Or how about the Night Haunter trusting his murderers and beater? Not likely.' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2799851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Gladius Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 the one thing that throws it right open is the fact that loken is one of the eight, and arnt that happy band of individuals they form all psykers?? Its not a flat out statement, but its something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2799855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 The original topic is back that way guys... I'd suggest creating another topic if you want to continue the discussion In a totally unbiased choice, I would probably say Sigismund at the Siege of the Imperial Palace. Killing all that came against him, 14 of the very best Chaos had there is pretty damn awesome and something I (eventually) look forward to reading. And with all the characters, I think the timeframe in which you pick them is important, given their development over the years or due to external factors like Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2799860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 The original topic is back that way guys... I'd suggest creating another topic if you want to continue the discussion In a totally unbiased choice, I would probably say Sigismund at the Siege of the Imperial Palace. Killing all that came against him, 14 of the very best Chaos had there is pretty damn awesome and something I (eventually) look forward to reading. And with all the characters, I think the timeframe in which you pick them is important, given their development over the years or due to external factors like Chaos. Well i think i'm on topic. I said Loken is the "Best" for a number of reasons, one of them is that he is a psyker. If Sigismund fought Loken aka Cerberus, The Emperors Champion would get overwhelmed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2799865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 The original topic is back that way guys... I'd suggest creating another topic if you want to continue the discussion In a totally unbiased choice, I would probably say Sigismund at the Siege of the Imperial Palace. Killing all that came against him, 14 of the very best Chaos had there is pretty damn awesome and something I (eventually) look forward to reading. And with all the characters, I think the timeframe in which you pick them is important, given their development over the years or due to external factors like Chaos. Well i think i'm on topic. I said Loken is the "Best" for a number of reasons, one of them is that he is a psyker. If Sigismund fought Loken aka Cerberus, The Emperors Champion would get overwhelmed. Oh my, no. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2799870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 The original topic is back that way guys... I'd suggest creating another topic if you want to continue the discussion :huh: In a totally unbiased choice, I would probably say Sigismund at the Siege of the Imperial Palace. Killing all that came against him, 14 of the very best Chaos had there is pretty damn awesome and something I (eventually) look forward to reading. And with all the characters, I think the timeframe in which you pick them is important, given their development over the years or due to external factors like Chaos. Well i think i'm on topic. I said Loken is the "Best" for a number of reasons, one of them is that he is a psyker. If Sigismund fought Loken aka Cerberus, The Emperors Champion would get overwhelmed. Oh my, no. I'm sorry, I just can't get the image of you saying that after spitting out some tea in disbelief, while your monocle falls out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2799903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crandall87 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Back on topic: I think Abaddon would win but I would want Sevatar to win because I like him as a character and hope we see more of him in the HH series. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2799912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 The original topic is back that way guys... I'd suggest creating another topic if you want to continue the discussion :tu: In a totally unbiased choice, I would probably say Sigismund at the Siege of the Imperial Palace. Killing all that came against him, 14 of the very best Chaos had there is pretty damn awesome and something I (eventually) look forward to reading. And with all the characters, I think the timeframe in which you pick them is important, given their development over the years or due to external factors like Chaos. Well i think i'm on topic. I said Loken is the "Best" for a number of reasons, one of them is that he is a psyker. If Sigismund fought Loken aka Cerberus, The Emperors Champion would get overwhelmed. Oh my, no. Why? WHY do you torture us B) I havent listened to the audio book with Loken/Cerberus in but i dont think that he could kill Sigismund even with psyker powers, except if he was around Alpha/Beta grade. Sigismund is just too good and he is bound to have had experience fighting psykers in the Crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2799983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I'm sorry, I just can't get the image of you saying that after spitting out some tea in disbelief, while your monocle falls out. You're not far wrong. I mean, there's a reason Sigismund was called the Emperor's Champion, and it's not because every two-bit thug in ceramite could take him down. Not even a Custodian was awarded that title. It was Siggi. He was, after all, the one guy who said "Sure, cool, this Chapter idea is brilliant. But mine will be six times the size of everyone else's, just because I say so. Later, Terrans." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2800011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 It's not often I agree with M2C, but he's right in this case. Loken most definitely was not a psyker. Want to know how I can tell you this with absolute certainty? Because... That's not been the author's intent with him thus far. Also. Hidden psychic powers are revealed under high stress. Do you think the onset of the Horus Heresy would have provided enough stress for Loken? :( So, no, Loken is not a psyker. Don't accuse me - or any other user - of being narrow-minded because of that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2800017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 He was, after all, the one guy who said "Sure, cool, this Chapter idea is brilliant. But mine will be six times the size of everyone else's, just because I say so. Later, Terrans." If that's what he said, then it must have been off the records, since the Inquisition so far has not been able to prove that anything fishy like that is going on with the Black Templars. Also, The Imperial Fists Legion was finally divided according to Dorn's agreement, so he would have divided the Legion properly, i.e. into Chapter sized bits. So it was not so much the case of "Siggi" claiming several thousand warriors for his own Chapter, as more a failure to communicate a desire to keep the Black Templars Chapter at the standard size it was founded at to his successors. Also, Dorn apparently didn't point that out to the Templars either. But then, why should Dorn's personal Chapter be seen as an example for a successor Chapter, when they had Siggi. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2800028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I'm sorry, I just can't get the image of you saying that after spitting out some tea in disbelief, while your monocle falls out. You're not far wrong. I mean, there's a reason Sigismund was called the Emperor's Champion, and it's not because every two-bit thug in ceramite could take him down. Not even a Custodian was awarded that title. It was Siggi. He was, after all, the one guy who said "Sure, cool, this Chapter idea is brilliant. But mine will be six times the size of everyone else's, just because I say so. Later, Terrans." I love you and i'm not ashamed to admit it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2800032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 He was, after all, the one guy who said "Sure, cool, this Chapter idea is brilliant. But mine will be six times the size of everyone else's, just because I say so. Later, Terrans." If that's what he said, then it must have been off the records, since the Inquisition so far has not been able to prove that anything fishy like that is going on with the Black Templars. Also, The Imperial Fists Legion was finally divided according to Dorn's agreement, so he would have divided the Legion properly, i.e. into Chapter sized bits. So it was not so much the case of "Siggi" claiming several thousand warriors for his own Chapter, as more a failure to communicate a desire to keep the Black Templars Chapter at the standard size it was founded at to his successors. Also, Dorn apparently didn't point that out to the Templars either. But then, why should Dorn's personal Chapter be seen as an example for a successor Chapter, when they had Siggi. While this is all most likely true, pending whatever changes happen in any future editions/codices/novels, it's way less cute than what I said. Deep down, you know it. Looking for truth and sense in a thread this inane is a fool's crusade, dude. It was just a joke. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2800034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I think the end of this thread is near as the commentary is getting more off topic. Please provide on topic commentary/debate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2800037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 On topic: As much as I enjoyed the brief fight scene of Nicodemus in "Iron Within", that was just one instance of one Ultramarine in a fight. It was a high ranking Ultramarine, and it was a good fight, but to take this isolated instance as him being the number one figter of the Ultramarines Legion would be a bit premature. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2800102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I would have to say or would be either be Abaddon or Sigsmund, but my Black Legion fanboysim wins out and I'll have to go with Ezekyle here. Honestly, we've only seen Abaddon fight Loken and win because of his termie armor and we haven't seen Sigsmund fight at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2800147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I would have to say or would be either be Abaddon or Sigsmund, but my Black Legion fanboysim wins out and I'll have to go with Ezekyle here. Honestly, we've only seen Abaddon fight Loken and win because of his termie armor and we haven't seen Sigsmund fight at all. He had a bit of a jolly on mars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2800270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I have to vote for Sigismund as well! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2800363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Thank you A D-B. Sigismund and Abaddon are heads and tails of the same coin. On one side you have the Emperors personal legion an on the other the Warmasters. There's a reason Dan Abnett set up Horus and Dorn being so close and the Unstoppable Force to the Immovable object comparison. The Imperial Fists just havnt had their time in the limelight yet for all to see their awesomeness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2800372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Btw, was Sigismund appointed Emperor's Champion during the Crusade, or was he appointed shortly before the Siege of Terra? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2800593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Shortly before I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/5/#findComment-2800661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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