spartan249 Posted November 4, 2012 Author Share Posted November 4, 2012 Well... dark reaper exarch + farseer using Perfect Timing could achieve what I said. Expensive trick, I admit. In any case, using terrain placement aggressively to block off potential firing lanes is a good trick to use when using procedurally generated terrain. I usually house rule terrain placement first, then fortification just to be fair to those people who took the time and money to build and paint a personal fortification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Alaric Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 look @citadelarmyguy i appreciate your opinions and such but throwin me under the buss like that isn't the classiest thing man ("i'd eat my hat"), i played BT and it was a close quarters designed force. 24" and in with the 3 vindy's. the short side deployment and actually rolling for terrain (i don't do that usually - house placement like @spartan) really hamstrung me. if we rolled up either of the other deployments i could have brought me powerful close range firepower to bear and beat him down a bit easier. furthermore, he had eldrad casting 3 powers a turn and another farseer casting other things to buff his crazy shooting. him seizing busted a vindy turn 1 (i reserved 2) and all of those ap3 ignoring cover save templates will make any power armor force cringe man (unless you're deathwing). now, in regards to outflankers and deep strikers BT don't really have access to any good ones. sword brethren are too expensive to be honest. this is the GK subforum though so i'll bring it back. with dreadknights and storm ravens i think the fortress wouldn't be as daunting of a challenge, but that still doesn't negate cover save ignoring blasts or ap3 shooting that still needs to be dealt with. ok, soapbox stepped down off of. basically with the proper strategy you can take care of a FoR. i'd say templars (run more fluff-like, cc heavy) aren't the best solution. gk has a plethora of ways to deal with it as well. NDK's teleporting, henchman throwing customized lascannon shots and other shenanigans are all valid thoughts imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 look @citadelarmyguy i appreciate your opinions and such but throwin me under the buss like that isn't the classiest thing man ("i'd eat my hat") My bad Alaric, I hadn't even read into it as a personal attack, I didn't mean nothing by it mate. I'm sorry I came across as a classless hack, I just get passionate about people who think the Fortress is OP and I spoke without consideration. I certainly above all things did not mean to generate any implications towards your ability or skill level. My apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monodominant Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I wanted to add one small piece of experience that should be mentioned when facing Tyranids given the ease with which you mention we should take them down. As a caveat I am not talking about games that you have arranged with someone in particular (hence you know your are fighting Tyranids and know what to take) but rather in pick up games or Tournament games with a fixed list. We suffer GREATLY from Shadow in the Warp especially given the relative close range we need to get to, in order to do damage. In my game vs Nids I kept failing the LD in 3d6 (which makes sense given the average of 10.5) which meant no Hammerhand, no Force Weapon attacks and no Prescience. So this should be taken into account. That along with the fact that Biomancy means we may end up facing Toughness 8 MCs or MCs with Feel no Pain, EW and It will not die means its not as easy as it might sound... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 First thing that came to my mind: Dark Reapers. Dark Reapers in a FoR would be very annoying. :blush: That Exarch is a MEQ exterminator. There are other things you can drop in the FoR for similar effect; we won't autowin against one. It's nice to know where your opponent's strat will likely be centered, but not a guarantee of victory. Also, the Fortress model is beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I wanted to add one small piece of experience that should be mentioned when facing Tyranids given the ease with which you mention we should take them down. As a caveat I am not talking about games that you have arranged with someone in particular (hence you know your are fighting Tyranids and know what to take) but rather in pick up games or Tournament games with a fixed list. We suffer GREATLY from Shadow in the Warp especially given the relative close range we need to get to, in order to do damage. In my game vs Nids I kept failing the LD in 3d6 (which makes sense given the average of 10.5) which meant no Hammerhand, no Force Weapon attacks and no Prescience. So this should be taken into account. That along with the fact that Biomancy means we may end up facing Toughness 8 MCs or MCs with Feel no Pain, EW and It will not die means its not as easy as it might sound... We don't need Psychic powers to beat Tyranids...unless I'm missing something? Are you remembering to use Daemonbane on their Psykers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share Posted November 5, 2012 If you're relying on CC to combat tyranids, I think you're doing it wrong. CC is a last resort to use against them. Shooting is the first and best answer to them, seriously. Now, perhaps it's just a consequence of the types of lists I run, but I find barely any trouble with them, even with Iron Arm in the equation. I am of course assuming you have stormravens. Where I once had extreme trouble just surviving with my Iron Hands, I simply harvest like the grim reaper, with only a few of the tougher tyranids putting up any real fight. Target priority and a ton of shooting works wonders for me in keeping them at arms reach (coteaz and warp quake help out with that tremendously). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 ^ ^ ^ Pretty much. They're nothing more than Orks with claws and their big creatures have relatively bad saves. Almost everything they have dies to Storm Bolters and Psycannons. If you're in close combat, well, at least be glad you're not Vanilla Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Alaric Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 look @citadelarmyguy i appreciate your opinions and such but throwin me under the buss like that isn't the classiest thing man ("i'd eat my hat") My bad Alaric, I hadn't even read into it as a personal attack, I didn't mean nothing by it mate. I'm sorry I came across as a classless hack, I just get passionate about people who think the Fortress is OP and I spoke without consideration. I certainly above all things did not mean to generate any implications towards your ability or skill level. My apologies. it really not that big a deal man and i'm not tryin to whine or anything just seemed a little pointed. no worries. your thoughts are all valid and such my force just wasn't designed to deal with it at all haha bolt pistols and chainswords aren't the greatest thing to assault a massive fortress throwing ap3 blasts around...lol i didn't even get within like 24" of it to be honest. manned by all that shooting it's pretty tough for most armies to deal with. and you're good man, citadel? damn impressive. no sweat for sure man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratul29 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 I've also found that pretty much most ALL eldar players bring eldrad now... its annoying, espeically when i faced karandras, Eldrad and a squad of warlocks with my 10 man squad of GKT's, i got them down to 1 wound a piece and killed all the warlocks, but that reroll failed saves power, plus continuesly Lo'S! everything onto karandras was annoying for his 2+ armour save, looking back now, i would have been much better off blowing him to bits with ranged weaponry :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 6, 2012 Author Share Posted November 6, 2012 You know what solves the problem of bouncing off of 2+ saves... A squad full of Daemon Hammers. Don't laugh, I do it, and it cuts through just about everything I charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 As to 'Nids, the only opponent I have lost to repeatedly is an all melee 'Nidzilla/shadow in the warp list. They move too fast to keep them at range, make using our powers near impossible, and have way too many attacks to absorb. Even though I've never lost a single unit (just several models) to 'Nids, I've yet to kill enough of them to matter, nor been able to hold an objective. Every game has been a loss due to literally not having enough models on the table (our biggest weakness). I'm sure that if the 'Nid army build was more "balanced", I'd have won each game. However, against an enemy that runs every turn, can feet into assualt, and force failures to activate psychic powers, GKs are a bit screwed. SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnImA8 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 As to 'Nids, the only opponent I have lost to repeatedly is an all melee 'Nidzilla/shadow in the warp list. They move too fast to keep them at range, make using our powers near impossible, and have way too many attacks to absorb. Even though I've never lost a single unit (just several models) to 'Nids, I've yet to kill enough of them to matter, nor been able to hold an objective. Every game has been a loss due to literally not having enough models on the table (our biggest weakness). I'm sure that if the 'Nid army build was more "balanced", I'd have won each game. However, against an enemy that runs every turn, can feet into assualt, and force failures to activate psychic powers, GKs are a bit screwed. SJ I actually faced the same problem. It got to the point where my friend simply doesn't like playing his nids against GK's (not just me, any GK player) because it's "too easy of a matchup" for him. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 6, 2012 Author Share Posted November 6, 2012 Lack of numbers is not our problem, as henchmen are readily available. Close combat is not our problem either. Not even shadows in the warp is that big an issue, as it does not make you peril above 12 nor does it do anything about brotherhood banners. Hell, we have OSRs we can shoot into close combat that obliterates hordes and tanks alike. We have the most point efficient assault unit in the game. How exactly is it that you are losing? What exactly is he using that you can't handle? I have yet to face a tyranid list that overwhelmed me with numbers, and they have certainly tried. Nevermind. I just saw that you use terminators. All is explained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnImA8 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Lack of numbers is not our problem, as henchmen are readily available. Close combat is not our problem either. Not even shadows in the warp is that big an issue, as it does not make you peril above 12 nor does it do anything about brotherhood banners. Hell, we have OSRs we can shoot into close combat that obliterates hordes and tanks alike. We have the most point efficient assault unit in the game. How exactly is it that you are losing? What exactly is he using that you can't handle? I have yet to face a tyranid list that overwhelmed me with numbers, and they have certainly tried. Nevermind. I just saw that you use terminators. All is explained. I personally don't run terminators often. I'm more liable to run Purifiers or Strikes. And I typically do so to the exclusion of Henchmen because I've been a Puritan GK player since the Daemonhunters codex and the "Way of the Water Warrior". Also do you really use OSR's? I've used them on occasion for fun in 6th, but I had thought that the general consensus online was that they were in no way worth it... My friend tends to run 6 Hive Guard, Swarmlord with Tyrant Guard, a pair of Tervigons, a couple of squads of Termagaunts, and then some combination of Trygon(s), Ravenors, Zoanthropes or more Hive Guard depending on points and personal whim. Needless to say that the combination of speed, durable threats, and seemingly endless termagaunts (who can now tie us up continuously with Fearless) really screws over my lists and the Stormbolters just aren't enough to stem the tide... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Lack of numbers is not our problem, as henchmen are readily available. Close combat is not our problem either. Not even shadows in the warp is that big an issue, as it does not make you peril above 12 nor does it do anything about brotherhood banners. Hell, we have OSRs we can shoot into close combat that obliterates hordes and tanks alike. We have the most point efficient assault unit in the game. How exactly is it that you are losing? What exactly is he using that you can't handle? I have yet to face a tyranid list that overwhelmed me with numbers, and they have certainly tried. Nevermind. I just saw that you use terminators. All is explained. Henchman are garbage against 'Nids, and I never said anything about losing CC, nor about Perils. What I did say was that I'm unable to kill enough 'Nids to clear an objective or remove enough units to gain kill point or any of the other possible win conditions. OSR's miss, and the only one that does not scatter requires a 200 HQ as well as a friendly unit to target. In point of fact, I've stated a number of times in the past, any list can be tailored to defeat any other list. So yes, if I had Karamazov, Cortaez, and slew of Hench-squads, I could potentially win against a max Monsterous Creature 'Nid melee only list with Shadows spewing from every major unit. Possibly. But I don't play a Cortaez-Hench list. I play Grey Knights. And as it stands, 'Nids are by far the most difficult opponent I have faced. Not because they can roll me, but because they effectively neutralize me as well as far outnumber me. And that is a tough situation to win from. Again, if the 'Nid list was more "balanced", I can see my army winning. However, if my list was more "balanced", I can see my army getting rolled rather than stalled. SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monodominant Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 I agree with the above... The game here doesnt evolve around knowing what your opponent has... so set fixed lists for all comers (tournament based) are the usual thing you face. So I cant really bring in Karamazov or tailor a list... I will play with my standard list + any tweaks from the experience gained from tournaments... As such I tend NOT to have Karamazov or squads of hencemen and as the above mention the problem occurs when you are swarmed in assault... so you dont get to shoot and the 3-4-5 nids you kill mean you are gonna be stuck in combat... and when he has 2 things that keep generating troops every round, it means I am at a huge disadvantage if I lose a single troop! So, yea Tyranids have been a very tough match up for me so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Same here! I'd say my ratio vs nids is 50% wins-50% loss. A good player will send lots of termagants and still spawn more. Two tervigons will spawn an average of 4 units of 11 in a game, I think. Now that fearless doesn't autokill them, they can bog us down a lot. Add 2-3 units of 2 zoathropes with those pesky St5 AP3 blasts and the game gets hard. The toughest I've faced had actually very few TMC. Just the tervigons. As I remember it, I think it was the Swarmlord (for laughs! - He got killed because of the Daemonbane rule by my last paladin which had actually died in that same round, I think!), 2unit of 3 zoathropes, 1 unit of Ymgarl Genestealers (which almost destroyed a unit of Paladins when they came in!), 2 tervigons (as troops), 3-4 termagant units of 20-25. My friend got lucky and added something like 5 units of 12 termagants (and had to use models from his bucket of hormogaunt, as the bucket of termagant was empty). As we play with lots of terrain (cities of death style), killing around 140+ models is not easy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 I go along with my previous speakers. As a player of significant Inquisition/Grey Knight as well as Tyranid armys I would even favor Nids when it comes to all-comer lists tough I have to say I know that matchup only from the Nids side of things. Strangely enough on B&C and also on DakkaDakka most people seem to agree that Nids aren't that big of a problem for GKs cuz of all the fancy tools we can bring down on horde armys and versus MCs. At the end of the day non-tailored GK lists tend to struggle versus horde-nids cuz of the lack of flamers (psycannons are so superior u know) and a shortage of purifiers. MCs beeing helpless versus GKs is generally true but only before factoring in SotW. Most GK units have a Ld of 9 and while I agree it's still damn risky to assault GKs with nid MC I regularly murder whole squads with my tyrants. I especially enjoy stomping/facemelting those fancy all-hammers-termi squads with my screamer-killer broods. One thing I haven't really found an answer for (except for double dakka-flyrant maybe which for me counts as kinda tailored) are Stormravens and their mindstrike missiles. Those thing casually peril my (non flying) synapses to death which especially hurts when it comes to my Tervigons. Once again - thats all under the assumption of using non-tailored lists. When using the full potential of Matt Wards feverish dream induced codex awesomeness/abomination Nids hardly stand a chance - even when tailoring themselve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 6, 2012 Author Share Posted November 6, 2012 Well, I don't understand how they can be so difficult for so many of you, as I either bring paladins, strikes, and two storms, or a lot of strikes and henchmen, and both obliterate all the Nids that come my direction. And why in the world are ymgarls destroying paladins? I usually get charged once per opponent, and he's lucky if he kills one or two in return for a squad wipe. Hmm... seems like specifics are necessary. Since I can't imagine how you could stack the odds against GKs, you guys have to show me list vs list how this is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 My liste was pretty usual, around 1500pts (without all the details, that was some time ago). Nothing fancy, not a great list, an average one. GKGM Coteaz 6 Paladins (2 psycannons) 10 GKSS, psybolts, 2 psycannons, (rhino?) 10 GKSS, psybolts, 2 psycannons (rhino?) Psyfleman Psyfleman As I remember it, the 10 Ymgarl genestealer should have done about 6 wounds on the paladins (40 attack with +1 attack morphing, assault, rending and all), they probably did 8. That killed something like 3 and left the other three with 4 wounds. The Paladins still managed to survive (the GKGM came to their help, I think) and a lone paladin, with 1 wound left, managed to kill the swarmlord, IIRC. The Psyflemen were utterly useless, trying to take wounds off the tervigons. The Zoathropes did a number on the GKSS (even with the -4 to Ld, some tests were bound to get through!) and then the 140-some termagants hit and it was just shooting dice by the bucket from there on... In retrospective, I had a very average list, and might not have played my best game. Also, that was 5th ed, so a bit different from now. I still think a non-tailored GK list will struggle against a Tervigon-termagant heavy list, unless maybe it has a triple NDK with HI, like some all-comers lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 6, 2012 Author Share Posted November 6, 2012 I have never run tailored lists, and I still don't have trouble killing enough tyranids to cripple them. Tervigon/gaunt Spam is all I fight nowadays, and it's the same result everytime. Unless I get horrific rolls, there is some face to floor action in the store that day. If you guys have trouble with tyranid hordes... I shudder to think how badly IG brutalize. They're way better then tyranids and also throw 100+ models easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 In some way, I've had better luck vs IGs (same opponent!). Nids are so fast that I can't get enough shooting through. Guards, on the other hand, are more static. Sending in 2 NDK with teleporters and HI keeps him busy while I can concentrate fire on the next important threat. I can also move up and seize mid-field objectives, which I have trouble doing vs Nids. What list do you usually use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 6, 2012 Author Share Posted November 6, 2012 Depending either on my mood or on a dice roll, my list will waver between the following 2. 2000 pts HQ Coteaz: 100 pts OX Inquisitor: Beamer, ML 1 - 100 pts Troops Strike Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts - 240 pts Strike Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts - 240 pts Strike Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts - 240 pts Strike Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts - 240 pts Henchmen: 7 Acos (Bolter), 3 Pcannon Servitor, 2 Jokaero - 165 pts Henchmen: 10 Acos (Sbolter), 2 Jokaero - 140 pts Elites Techmarine: Beamer, 3 Skulls - 119 pts Fast Attack Stormraven: TLMM, TLLC - 205 pts Stormraven: TLMM, TLLC - 205 pts 2000 pts HQ Draigo: 275 pts Coteaz: 100 pts Troops Paladin Squad: 10 'Dins, 4 Psycannons, Stave, Banner - 675 pts Henchmen: 7 Acos (Bolter), 3 Pcannon Servitor, 2 Jokaero - 165 pts Henchmen: 10 Acos (7 Bolter, 3 Pgun), 2 Jokaero - 147 pts Strike Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons - 220 pts Fast Attack Stormraven: TLMM, TLLC - 205 pts Stormraven: TLMM, TLLC - 205 pts The first one has the least amount of trouble with melee nids, while the second one sometimes has close games based on mission. Furthermore, Guard can either pull a full out Earth army style (one of the weaker ones IMO, as it is vulnerable to terrain placement and maneuver warfare) or an Earth/Fire army style (Much stronger, as it can actually take advantage of terrain rather than be limited by it, and can enact maneuver warfare itself to great effect due to the overwhelming amount of powerful shooting units). Either way, GKs are at a disadvantage because we are under the burden to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I'm kindof with Spartan on this one, but no one has mentioned the premier anti-light infantry unit in the game: Purifiers. A tervigon spam list can't bog down Purifiers, not with Cleansing Flame. They'd have to really get their Shadow up in there close enough to try blocking it, in which case those Shadow in the Warp models are in danger. Obviously it will still be a hard game but Purifiers are some of the best crowd-control units around. Not to mention a Crowe-list is laughing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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