Grey Knights in 6th Edition

[jeffersonian000]

GKT are always troops. Its Paladins that require an HQ to make them troops.

 

SJ

[Aethernitas]

at first i bought termies as i could use them as troops and well they where termies, coming from running Necrons and a small amount of Dark Eldar they seemed OP but i had bought the army for its psychic powers use amount, but when i compared termies with other army's i realized how bad they were ... in comparison no AP2 and no 2x strength and for about the same pts, and no option for TH/SS combo and depending on HQ they could be troops ... so now i am trying to get some more PA as they are more OP for the pt cost

 

This is wrong in so many ways :)

[Gentlemanloser]

But Strikes being better than GKT in just about every situation is correct.

 

I've no desire to reopen that discussion though. :P

 

Edit: That being said, maybe my current thinking is wrong, but I see TDA as the platform to use if you want AP2 Melee Weapons (as they are almost all Unwieldy, and you require the 2+ Save to live past Power Weapons to get to swing your AP2 weapons).

 

And our GKT can (like WolfGuard) get AP2 Melee Weapons for no additional cost, and retain our shooting.

[Aethernitas]

But Strikes being better than GKT in just about every situation is correct.

 

I've no desire to reopen that discussion though. ;)

 

Edit: That being said [...}

 

U cant say that and follow up with your first argument :P For me it comes down to personal preference.

 

If you compare a 220 pts PAGK squad with 2 Psybolter with a 225 pts Termi squad with one Psybolter:

 

PAGK have 10 wounds

TAGK have 5 wounds

 

PAGK 1/3 chance to fail armour save

TAGK 1/6 chance to fail armour save

 

PAGK die to AP3 or better with no invulnerable save whatsoever

TAGK die to AP2 or better if they fail their 5++

 

PAGK more vulnerable to templates due to smaller bases and higher modelcount

TAGK less so due to bigger bases and smaller modelcount

 

PAGK 1 base attack

TAGK 2 base attacks

 

PAGK 16 bolter shots and 4 (8 when standing still) psybolter shots at 24"

TAGK 8 bolter shots and 4 psybolter shots at 24"

 

PAGK expensive cc upgrades (especially profit from psybolt ammunition)

TAGK cc upgrades for free (and optional brobanner)

 

PAGK Warpquake, Hammerhand

TAGK only Hammerhand

 

PAGK dedicated transport options

TAGK no such thing

 

I'm sure there are some points still missing but when u compare those facts it seems to me TAGK are actually more survivable point for point and have greater cc capabilities (also point for point). The argument "but everyone uses AP2 weapons everywhere" is just another example of judging units in a vacuum as I as player can react to that by using transports, choose my positioning wisely, deny line of sight or just manage to stay in cc most enemy turns.

 

A nice way to compare those units would also be to let them face off against each other. If you are interested I can post some hard numbers. SPOILERS: Termis win shooting when both units move and draw if not (both with an additional slight edge for the termis cuz they get a 5++ against possible rending). In cc termis own PAGKs quite hard.

[spartan249]

Interesting... for once, GL and I agree about something.

 

TAGKs have less firepower and less real survivability then PAGKs in many different situations. PAGKs have double the guns and get 1.5x more attacks on a charge, and cover skews the survivability juxtaposition to the PAGK's side vs low ap weapons. Now, the only situation where they are better is in close combat, and that's mostly because of the power weapon changes.

 

In addition, you get greater board presence and thus more strategic options. Terminators have slightly better tactical flexibility, but pay for this by sacrifing a lot of ranged firepower.

[Gentlemanloser]

Basically that. :)

 

There are quite a few old threads on this, I've no desire to derail this one.

[Aethernitas]

Fair enough. Let's agree to disagree.

[spartan249]

Now, I'm considering doing a section on allies with GKs as the main element. Is there any interest in this?

[AnImA8]

Now, I'm considering doing a section on allies with GKs as the main element. Is there any interest in this?

 

Please do! I've been wanting to discuss ally options for a while but there seemed to be some ban on discussing non-marine units at all (is this still in effect?)

 

Personally I think either Guard (for bodies, more reliable anti-air, and ranged firepower) or basic marines (for some melta/plasma goodness) are the way to go.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Now, I'm considering doing a section on allies with GKs as the main element. Is there any interest in this?

Interest here, for sure. I'm actually subscribed to this thread, lots of good info here for GK.

[spartan249]

New section up. If anyone has any insights/questions that need answering for other readers, I'm all ears.

[AnImA8]

So here's a question for y'all, now that we're on the topic of allies too: if you take a Guard detachment, given how inexpensive Vendettas are, is there any reason not to take Vendettas over Stormravens? They're both essentially going to serve the same purpose which is hunting other flyers. And the only thing I can see the SR having over the Vendies is that you can carry your primary detachment GK's in the SR's. But aside from playing Purifiers, everything else can Deepstrike, or at the very least be given Rhinos, so transporting in the SR is low on my list of uses for the SR. Any thoughts?

[spartan249]

The one bad thing about vendettas is that they can only target a single unit in the context of allies. Stormravens are technically more accurate and versatile with mindstrikes. In the main role of anti-air, a single or double vendetta squadron works much better then a single stormraven. With a triple squadron though, I'd say double stormravens are worth considering over that, as that 400 point squadron can still only fire at 1 target, while two ravens can engage up to 4 targets.

[AnImA8]

Ah good point, I had forgotten about the anti-psyker capability of the SR's, and the fact that Vendettas would be acting as a squadron together. XD

[Castellan Alaric]

I know it wouldn't be a particularly "hard" battle per sae for a season gk player such as yourself, but you haven't put the Black Templars up there yet. There are a couple things bt's can do that can disrupt strategies and such.

[spartan249]

I suppose I could put a blurb up about BTs... I haven't heard any cries of distress from GK players about the horrors of the Black Templars (other way around, in fact), as BTs are sorely in need of some updating to make anything other then their mono build work, but whatever.

 

To be honest, I treat BT like I treat BA: Shoot them up, then assault when I judge the situation to be most advantageous to me. While BA get to me quickly via Jump Packs and such, BT get close to me by simple virtue of Righteous Zeal and Rhinos (given the debuff the Rhino got... not caring much). Terminators are either walking and shooting missiles at me, at which point I will either sit in cover and ignore until they get close enough for me to worry (or shoot them with plasma/lascannon until they are neutralized), or they are deep striking and either shooting or running (If they shoot, I plasma cannon them. Pretty much renders them a non-factor. If they run, I still plasma them, then finish off the remains with whatever is handy). Other then that, BT armor is grossly overpriced for pretty much the same thing as C:SM, and assault isn't all that scary a proposition since I'm not dealing with higher initiative or Preferred Enemy anymore. The lack of any psychic defense also pretty much seals the deal.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Curious piece of wargear that I haven't been seeing getting used, and I thought I'd ask why. The Psyocculum. I understand 25pts isn't a light investment, but look at what it does:

 

BS10 when shooting at a Psyker+Its Unit. That means 2+ with re-rolling 2+ to hit. Now it didn't make much sense in 5th Ed, but 6th edition has seen a massive resurgence of Psykers.

 

Codicies which must use psykers: Tyranids, Grey Knights

Codicies which usually use psykers: Eldar, Chaos Marines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves

Codicies which might use psykers: Orks, IG, Vanilla Marines

 

Now observe the above list. Now think about the codicies which are left-- how many of those still tend to utilize the listed Codicies as Allies?

 

Imagine a Psyocculum in a 10-man Henchman squad with 10 Plasmaguns (140pts) behind a Defense Line, or 5 Henchmen with 5 Plasmaguns in a Chimera (so 5 can shoot out the hatch-- 125pts).

 

Anyone else thinking this is a good idea? The Stormraven's Mindstrike Missiles have been getting some love since the trending meta towards Psykers, but I haven't seen the Psyocculum getting any bumps.

[Zeratul29]

Honestly, I think the psyocculum is over looked because the Ordo Hereticus Inquistitor has the worst options out of the 3 inquisitors. I believe is the only unit who can take it, besides the Culexus, who doesn't have IC rule So he is over looked for the other two options, and he also takes up an hq slot

 

Though I do think the idea of it seems more viable this edition, becaus Psykers have become even more prevalant.

[spartan249]

Cool... if prescience didn't already achieve a similar effect against any target. Sadly, that henchmen unit isn't kosher (no one would shut up about GKs if they did >.> )

[GOFADK]

Imagine a Psyocculum in a 10-man Henchman squad with 10 Plasmaguns (140pts) behind a Defense Line, or 5 Henchmen with 5 Plasmaguns in a Chimera (so 5 can shoot out the hatch-- 125pts).

That would be cool, but you can only give 3 Henchmen plasma or meltaguns.

 

But you could go for 3 plasma servitors + 1 or 2 Jarikos + 3 plasmagun Henchmen and hope for the +12" range from the jarikos.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Sadly, that henchmen unit isn't kosher (no one would shut up about GKs if they did >.> )

Damn you Army Builder! Making me look stupid on international forums. Sigh....

 

For any who do not know, AB isn't always correct. Things like this (ie no limit on Acolyte specials) creep in there. lol

[saffo]

I am new to these forums, so please have mercy on my soul. I am also an Imperial Guard player that uses Grey Knights as my allies. I saw you guys talking about some ideas for this and thought I would post my thoughts. YMMV.

I do a couple things. Most of the time I am playing guard as MSU, plasma/melta with massive artillery. I am actually looking at buying the Forgeworld artillery "Basilisks" that are T7, 2W and only 75 points (but cant move). Next I need a cheaty....err perfectly legal now.... Forgeworld artillery Manticore :jaw:.

-I use strike squads for warp quake because I am highly susceptible to deep strikers. They also help heavily with volume of fire against termies (with psybolts and prescience making a big difference).

-Sometimes I take Coteaz so I can shoot stuff that deep strikes me with his special been expecting you shenanigans.

-I like the psychic communion, which I combine with the Guards HQ addon units to make +2 -2 to rolls for reserves for me and my opponent.

-I like the grand strategy to make my Grey Knight units "scoring". Since my master list is Guard, this is really useful. I wanted to also ask your opinion about this approach. In my local gaming group, I am then able to claim objectives with those units. Do you consider that kosher?

 

Just a few thoughts.

 

Thanks!

[AnImA8]

-I like the grand strategy to make my Grey Knight units "scoring". Since my master list is Guard, this is really useful. I wanted to also ask your opinion about this approach. In my local gaming group, I am then able to claim objectives with those units. Do you consider that kosher?

 

Just a few thoughts.

 

Thanks!

 

To my knowledge this is not kosher since under the allies section, Allies of Convenience are treated as enemies for all intents and purposes. The BRB enumerates specifics like psychic powers, but these are just examples and not explicit restrictions on the preceding lines.

[Brother Maikel]

-I like the psychic communion, which I combine with the Guards HQ addon units to make +2 -2 to rolls for reserves for me and my opponent.

Psychic Communion can only be cast on your turn, so you can't modify your opponents' reserve rolls with it.

 

-I like the grand strategy to make my Grey Knight units "scoring". Since my master list is Guard, this is really useful. I wanted to also ask your opinion about this approach. In my local gaming group, I am then able to claim objectives with those units. Do you consider that kosher?

 

GK and IG are Allies of Convenience, so any GK troops choices you bring, and any other units you make scoring via Grand Strategy are able to claim and deny objectives. In fact, as of right now you can use the Grand Strategy rule to make non-troops choices from your IG list into scoring units as well, so long as they meet the requirements for Grand Strategy. This might be FAQ'd away in the future though, so watch out.

 

Interesting thought: if you bring a GKGM and a couple squads of troops as an ally for Orks or Dark Eldar (Allies of Desperation), can Grand Strategy override the Desperate Allies rule, and make your units scoring anyway? What if your primary detachment is GK and you ally in Orks/DEldar?

 

Edit (ninja'd, sort of):

To my knowledge this is not kosher since under the allies section, Allies of Convenience are treated as enemies for all intents and purposes. The BRB enumerates specifics like psychic powers, but these are just examples and not explicit restrictions on the preceding lines.

It doesn't change whether they can score or deny though. You can't join them or cast on them, but the units are still scoring and they're still part of your army. In fact, if they couldn't score then the section on Desperate Allies wouldn't have to explicitly call out as an addition to the restrictions on AoC that the Desperate Allies become non-scoring and non-denying.

[saffo]

-I like the psychic communion, which I combine with the Guards HQ addon units to make +2 -2 to rolls for reserves for me and my opponent.

Psychic Communion can only be cast on your turn, so you can't modify your opponents' reserve rolls with it.

 

But If I go first, isn't it in effect until my next turn?