Aethernitas Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Below is a typical nid list I play nowadays. I dunno if it's appropriate to post this here but I felt that it is as a reply to spartans post :devil: Some thoughts bout the list: In general I sit back with the bulk of the army till I've bound the most dangerous enemy units in cc with the ymgarl and the tyrants - both of which I have great control over what and how they assault which versus GKs is especially helpful to get in contact with all the I6 halberds to reduce it to I1. As of now Tyrants and Ymgarl have proven very reliable killers of anything short of big paladin squads and big crusader/deathcult blobs. The shrike squad is a result of my games versus the new C:SM dex to have counterattack unit to halt DPs berserking through the core of my army. They stand back out of sight and only come forth when they are needed to countercharge. This list is not built to table an opponent (even tough in some rare occasions it did) but to killing the most threatening units of the OPFOR and sitting on more objectives (alternatively contesting more effectivly). It has repeatedly beaten GK lists but I have to admit that spartans first posted list could pose quite the challenge - especially if all the squads combat-squad :\ *2000 pts* HQ Tyrant: lashwip & bonesword, brainleech worms, old adversary, wings - 270 Tyrant: lashwip & bonesword, brainleech worms, old adversary, wings - 270 TROOPS Tervigon: adrenalen glands, toxin sacs, catalyst - 195 Tervigon: adrenalen glands, toxin sacs, catalyst - 195 Termagant Brood: 10 termagants , fleshborer - 50 Termagant Brood: 10 termagants , fleshborer - 50 ELITES Ymgarl Genestealer Brood: 8 ymgarl genestealer - 184 Ymgarl Genestealer Brood: 8 ymgarl genestealer - 184 Hive Guard Brood: 3 Hiveguards - 150 FAST ATTACK Tyranid Shrike Brood: 3 Shrikes, lashwhip & boneswords, scything talons - 150 HEAVY SUPPORT Biovore Brood: 1 Biovore - 45 Biovore Brood: 1 Biovore - 45 Trygon: toxin sacs - 210 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 That's a bit on the lighter side of model counts, so target priority and damage mitigation would be what I do, since the flyrants are more then the first can handle in CC. Combat squads would be a given, even if it yields first blood, as I'd rather have the flyrants in the open after killing 5 guys so I could shoot at them. The paladins eat just about any tyranid CC unit I've run into so far, so the second would have to prioritize the smaller bugs and let the big ones in to falco-punch them away. These are the instances where warding staves are very important, as without it, the paladins would take much more severe losses without the buffer of the stave bearer and draigo to soak up the AP2 hits. Either way, I don't think they pose more of a challenge then IG/DE, who don't need to get anywhere near you to remove models quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Again, in a vacuum, GKs have options to defeat any 'Nid unit. In a vacuum. On the table, we can see a number of different combinations that may or may not effect what we have on the table. In my case, all-melee 'Nidzilla+SotW lists are my bane. At 1500pts, I currently play a Ghostwing list with: Mordrak+5x Ghosts w/ 3x Halberds, 2x Swords Libby w/ Staff+Homer (normally selecting Psychic Scream and Prescience) 10x GKT w/ 2x Psycan, 2x Hammers, 4x Halberds, 4x Swords 10x GKT w/ 2x Psycan, 2x Hammers, 4x Halberds, 4x Swords Versus 'Nidzilla, I'm faced with very fast enemy units that get into CC by turn 2. That's 1 round of shooting before the melee mosh pit opens, and the remaining turns are spent stuck in assault. I might lose 2-3 models per unit, kill 15-20 'Nids, and still lose due to mission conditions. If I'm lucky, I can force a draw. Yes, I realize its an artifact of my army list, and not a reflection of the codex. Yet, againt MEG, IG, Good/Bad Elves, Warp Critters, and Green Skins, I've got a very successful track record with my Ghostwing list. Hell, against shooty and mixed-shooty/melee 'Nids I have a good track record. But all melee 'Nids stall me out. I have considered Banners to bypass SotW, which gives the added benefit of extra attacks at thelose of a NFW per unit. To do so, I have to drop a Ghost and the Libby's Staff to net enough points to blow on three Banners. Libby has the Staff to suck up Challanges, and the Ghost is an extra wound/save in Mordraks Wound-Pool, two things that help quite a bit versus other opponent lists. And no, being told to play a different list is not on the table, as this is the thread about GK in 6th, not the "Help Jeffersonian000 understand Mordrak sucks" thread. Ghostwing is a very enjoyable list to play, and 'Nids are my bane. But guest what? 'Nids are every list's bane, due to the exact same issues I've been facing. Yes, we can build specifically to defeat this type of opponent, but does that weaken our lists versus everyone else? SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 So you're arguing that all melee Nids are the bane of all armies, yes? Well, they should be wiping the floor everywhere then, we should be seeing entire clubs flooded by all melee tyranids, shouldn't we? It's only natural that such a warp in the metagame would show like a sore thumb, no? Against some of the lower tier codices, tyranids most definitely have the potential to overwhelm the opponent with simple mass of force. Grey Knights are most certainly not one of those codices. IMO, any constant instance of overwhelming done by an all melee build is a consequence of the type of army being run by the GK player. As versatile as we are, there are always one or two areas where a list will be weak in, it's an established paradigm in this game. In this instance, terminators have the big weakness of lack of numbers, and this is being exploited by the tyranid players. I'm noticing a common misconception people seem to hold about GKs, which is that GKs can create functional armies with a minimal amount of models. This is most certainly not true in my experience... no army can create a functional army based on a small amount of models. I think the true power of GKs is in the versatility and cost effectiveness of it's most basic troops combined with excellent support options and force multipliers. IMO, armies that do not emphasize terminators as the main force have less openings and more tactical options due to both battlefield presence and increased damage output across phases. Terminators make great diversions and shock troops due to their relative durability to standard arms, but sacrificing everything to do so... I'm not so hot on that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnImA8 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 So you're arguing that all melee Nids are the bane of all armies, yes? Well, they should be wiping the floor everywhere then, we should be seeing entire clubs flooded by all melee tyranids, shouldn't we? It's only natural that such a warp in the metagame would show like a sore thumb, no? What? He never said anything like this... What he said was that his list is designed to be effective against all comers (and I guess he has a track record to believe it is) but that fast, melee nidzilla poses a threat beyond what his all-comers list can handle, and if he adjusts the list to deal with it then he's worried that it will compromise his lists overall roundedness... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 In effect, that is what is being said. Unless you're playing moneyhammer, chances are that you build your army as an all-comers list. Thus, a list that demolishes all-comers lists demolishes a large majority of the meta. I'm saying that melee Nids are ok, but are not one of these metagame breaking lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnImA8 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 In effect, that is what is being said. Unless you're playing moneyhammer, chances are that you build your army as an all-comers list. Thus, a list that demolishes all-comers lists demolishes a large majority of the meta. I'm saying that melee Nids are ok, but are not one of these metagame breaking lists. No, you've added in your own false conclusion to what he's saying: what he's said is that HIS all-comers list gets demolished by melee nids; what you've added is that therefore melee nids demolish ALL all-comers lists. You cannot generalize to a universal claim from an existential claim. There are many different types of all-comers lists (at least one for each race--theoretically speaking--and for some races, multiple per list.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 We all draw conclusions from communication, whether it is implied or direct. All comer lists are, by nature, water style lists. Some codices do better then others in this role, and an all melee tyranids force is an attempt to use this to create a situation of <100% of the OPFOR vs the entire tyranid force. This works against some, but very seldom against GKs and armies specialized in MSU/shooting and screening tactics. If a GK all comers list is losing to a focused build, it has to be very formidable indeed, as GKs excel in just about every facet and can do so affordably. In my experience, I find this to not be the case, and classify this phenomenon as more of a localized situation of out-metagaming. I'd rate this match-up as 7:3 in our favor, given our great range of tactical and strategic options and their limited options for both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 But guest what? 'Nids are every list's bane, due to the exact same issues I've been facing. Yes, we can build specifically to defeat this type of opponent, but does that weaken our lists versus everyone else? ... Pretty sure Spartan was not drawing false conclusions or putting words in jeffersonian's mouth. But anyhow, no need for squabbles as such-- I feel there has been some excellent advice on combatting Tyranids and I may speak for everyone where we'd all like to keep things constructive. I for one, as a Blood Angels player, have extreme trouble with Tyranids due to the fact that they can out-melee me. Out-playing through objectives-focus is only possible for BA due to mobility. For GK you'll have to use mobility/screening/fixing and other tactics to scratch out board control for yourselves. As mentioned, Heavy Infantry-only lists have extreme trouble with anything but Fixing. Tyranids can be Monstrous Creature-heavy, Light Infantry-heavy, Medium Infantry-heavy (warriors etc) or they can be a balance of all three. I would contend that Balanced-'Nids is the easiest of the three to beat, and MC-heavy is easy for a prepared list but the most difficult for an unprepared one. Light Infantry-heavy you simply approach them like you would approach all board-control lists-- you have to either have your own screens/fixes to hold them off while you concentrate on key objectives, or you must use mobility to ensure concentration is met that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnImA8 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 But guest what? 'Nids are every list's bane, due to the exact same issues I've been facing. Yes, we can build specifically to defeat this type of opponent, but does that weaken our lists versus everyone else? ... Pretty sure Spartan was not drawing false conclusions or putting words in jeffersonian's mouth. But anyhow, no need for squabbles as such-- I feel there has been some excellent advice on combatting Tyranids and I may speak for everyone where we'd all like to keep things constructive. Wow, not sure how I missed that part of Jeffersonians post. Well then I recant my defense of him lol. And I apologize for seeming pedantic or derailing the thread at all. My usual issue with nids is the way in which every loss of my own is such a dramatic decrease in offensive ability compared to the loss my opponent incurs. This is especially difficult since our effective threat radii are comparable so I can't really keep him at arms length. Typically the way my games run is that I try to isolate key objectives to force my opponent to split his forces, but usually that just results in him sending a detachment of gaunts the way of the uncontested objectives while his Tervigons spew out more. The first couple of turns basically become me using my vehicles defensively to screen, while my available weapons focus down his Hive Guard. Meanwhile his Hive Guard wreck my vehicles and his forces start to close the noose as he casts the run and shoot psychic power on his most opportune units. The large blasts from his Tervigons pull off a few of my Strikes or Purifiers here and there along with some shots from the termagaunts that have broken through. The Trygons usually show at some point and it's pretty much over by turn 3 or 4, as he's either reduced my units to where they have negligible combat effectiveness, or has bogged them down with unit after unit of fearless gaunts. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 Like I stress repeatedly, model count is more important then quality models exactly because of situations like this. Keep upgrades limited to things that directly add to damage output and bring as many guys as you can. My statements about the ease of the match-up bank on the fact that GKs have such ready access to so much shooting. One serious counter-charge unit is never amiss, as that option being open frees up squads to shoot at other priority targets, thus increasing your overall operational security. This is why I say henchmen are gold: they provide great capabilities for almost nothing, allowing you to continue stocking up on bodies/guns with little lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnImA8 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Yea I can't deny that logic Spartan. My only real issue with the more bodies line is that I've always been a Puritan Grey Knights player since the Daemonhunters days, so I'm reluctant to take an inquisitor and--the more and more seemingly necessary--henchmen, nevermind someone like Coteaz. My new list is practically running 30 Strikes, and I'm hoping that this will suffice on the body count... but now that I'm down in college I won't be able to test it for some time haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFive Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Spartan249, how would play vs a Death Wing army? we normally play around 1750 and i cannot seem to get past all his TH/SS TDA's and he has allot .... we have also been using thees rules http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...258911&st=0 so this might be some fun for those interested would love it if you could make an entry for DA and there variants thanks for the great guide, this will help me alot :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 OH, that's the one I've been forgetting... kept on getting the feeling someone was missing. Well, Deathwing generally have the advantage in close combat due to their great saves and ability to deny most of ours, so I fight from the outside, using my volume of shots to focus fire and erase the closest squad with weight of fire. Warp Quake and IBEY keeps them at a distance, and I backpedal (or advance, if they find some reason to back up) to maintain mid-range as long as possible while I shoot them with all I have. 3++ or not, they fall to weight of saves, just like any other infantry unit. They may have the advantage in close combat, but we hold the undeniable edge in ranged combat. Ply this advantage as long as possible, that should be enough to see you through. Of course, if you're playing the hobby cheap army of Terminators, your work is much harder to do, as the ranged edge is mitigated and reliance on CC to make up for the less powerful shooting is a detriment. I'd suggest holding as much of your army in reserves as possible, waiting for the Deathwing Assault to come in first, then deep strike so that you are dictating the positioning of the battle. From here, it's a crapshoot, as you have less firepower to force saves with and have less maneuver options available due to having less units to use. Generally, the same principle applies, as you'll have to try to maintain ranged combat as long as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Most people seem to overlook that GK termis can actually go toe to toe (or point to point) with TH/SS termis. Just add a warding staff and u look at 215 pts for TH/SS termis and 220 for ours (assuming 5 man squads). Statistically those cc's outcomes will depend mostly on who charges whom. With 4 hammers + staff + charge those pesky 2+/3++ termis are toast. Adding more AP3 weapons on either side obviously shifts the statistical outcome more and more to the hammer heavier side of things with GK's having the big advantage of hammerhand. That said I personally don't often play those all-hammer squads but when I do those 20 pts for warding staff dmg-mitigation-goodness are a must have and realizing that those hammertime squads are quite popular on B&C I thought it makes sense mentioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I have a hard time when charging (or being charged) making a single member of the squad be the closest for wound allocation. I'm sure a Nemesis Staff would soak a few hits, but not enough to really make an impact. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 It only has to be one of the models in base contact (OR the one closest if there are no friendly models in base contact) with one or more TH/SS termis (or generally the ones striking at the current initiative step) of the enemy squad as the owner of the defending unit can allocate the wounds to a possible model (the warding staff that is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Heh, my lack of 6th experience showing again. Could have sworn wound allocation in CC was the same as shooting. Oh well. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 Getting into CC with TH/SS is gambling at it's finest. Yes you have the chance of killing them, but the reverse possibility of getting wiped out in a heartbeat is also probable. Warding Staves only go so far, as it's only one model with the 2++. A single failure of that save will result in you taking everything on squishy 5++, while every wound they have is shielded by their 3++. It's a stacked fight when both squads are at full strength in CC, so don't fight fair. Making the fight as unfair as possible is the GK way, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Heh, my lack of 6th experience showing again. Could have sworn wound allocation in CC was the same as shooting. Oh well. ;) Oh man... GL u should really go and grab your miniatures getting yourself some hands on experience :) Getting into CC with TH/SS is gambling at it's finest. It sure is and I don't propose to try to assault them urself as a plan A. Better to kite and shoot them at least 1-2 turns (just as u said spartan) cuz even killing one or two of them increase your chances dramatically. Just don't be afraid to finally charge if the odds are in your favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Oh man... GL u should really go and grab your miniatures getting yourself some hands on experience Actually, I wasn't far off. It is closest, like shooting, just with the B2B clause in there. Sure, if there are multiple minis that are the closest, it's your decision who to allocate to, but that's like shooting. And it's far easier to pull that off in shooting, than it is in CC with random charge lengths and pile ins. I really only see the Stave as a good option on ICs, for challenges. And not worth it for trying to soak hits on units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 10, 2012 Author Share Posted November 10, 2012 Staves have saved my paladins from many serious CC threats that would have otherwise destroyed them outright. There is no reason to not take one just because it requires a bit of creative positioning. Running them with and without speaks volumes, as paladins are very good, but not the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFive Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Warp Quake and IBEY keeps them at a distance, and I backpedal (or advance, if they find some reason to back up) to maintain mid-range as long as possible while I shoot them with all I have. 3++ or not, they fall to weight of saves, just like any other infantry unit. i don't have many guys in PA for Warp Quake(whats IBEY?), mostly TDA's and henchmen(none for CC regretibly) but i have been looking to get more They may have the advantage in close combat, but we hold the undeniable edge in ranged combat. Ply this advantage as long as possible, that should be enough to see you through. that is true, the other guys in my group hate my henchmen Of course, if you're playing the hobby cheap army of Terminators, your work is much harder to do, as the ranged edge is mitigated and reliance on CC to make up for the less powerful shooting is a detriment. I'd suggest holding as much of your army in reserves as possible, waiting for the Deathwing Assault to come in first, then deep strike so that you are dictating the positioning of the battle. From here, it's a crapshoot, as you have less firepower to force saves with and have less maneuver options available due to having less units to use. Generally, the same principle applies, as you'll have to try to maintain ranged combat as long as possible. what do you mean by a Hobby cheap army? i can take no offence as i don't know what that is ... i do try to keep it cheaper, but not as bad as that sounds ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 10, 2012 Author Share Posted November 10, 2012 IBEY = I've Been Expecting You. It's Coteaz's special rule that lets you shoot at stuff when it drops near him. Terminators cost much less then PAGKs to collect, so it's Hobby Cheap. Less time spent painting, less money spent, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFive Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 IBEY = I've Been Expecting You. It's Coteaz's special rule that lets you shoot at stuff when it drops near him. ah, i have only ever used once, as they tend to avoid Coteaz's as i tend to camp him w my henchmen for divination rolls Terminators cost much less then PAGKs to collect, so it's Hobby Cheap. Less time spent painting, less money spent, etc. at first i bought termies as i could use them as troops and well they where termies, coming from running Necrons and a small amount of Dark Eldar they seemed OP but i had bought the army for its psychic powers use amount, but when i compared termies with other army's i realized how bad they were ... in comparison no AP2 and no 2x strength and for about the same pts, and no option for TH/SS combo and depending on HQ they could be troops ... so now i am trying to get some more PA as they are more OP for the pt cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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