Kol Saresk Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Yes, well agreeing to do something, doesn't necessarily mean you will like it. Sort of like working part-time at a fast food restaurant during high school. It's almost guaranteed you won't like it, but the money is worth the trade-off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3271563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Still problematic. One dude kidnaps you, breaks you to his will and forces you to kill for him. You break out and have a chance of at least making his life harder for some time...only for another dude to show up and kidnap you - robbing you not only of your vengeance but also of honourable death alongside folks that you could call family - and force you to kill for him. Now, you might have taken a liking to killing by that time, but you won't tell me you're not dreaming of tearing the heads off both of your kidnappers. Especially as the attempt will serve as a subsitute for that honoruable death you missed out on, and free you from the unending pain of a dozen nails or so inside your head. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3271574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 And that is why Angron became a traitor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3271581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 I havnt finished it yet but I feel like the warp storm in the Ultramar sector is going to become the reason it went from 500 to 8 worlds. Also, an excellent reason for the UM to miss Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3271584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 I havnt finished it yet but I feel like the warp storm in the Ultramar sector is going to become the reason it went from 500 to 8 worlds. Also, an excellent reason for the UM to miss Terra. The Ultramarines and everyone else who has gone to Ultramar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3271587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 And that is why Angron became a traitor. And the reason why it took him 200 or so years to betray the Emp is... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3271589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Because he already told Khârn that he was going to play the role of Primarch and it took two hundred years for the Heresy to develop and become the actual Heresy in which Angron can now attempt to kill the Emperor. After the Emperor finally answers why he did nothing. Which is probably another reason since that's an answer Angron wants and dead men neither tell tales nor learn new ones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3271599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Yeah, I just don't see it. I'll just say that the whole Angron/Emperor dynamic was unduly complex even before ADB made the Nails a constant in Angron's life. Not really in the mood for getting into a further back-and-forth about this so I'm bailing out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3271617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 So the fact that Angron found his true purpose wasn't enough for him? What was stopping him from accepting his Legion and complying the planet himself? I understand these are complex questions that the creators didn't stop to consider when they wrote Angron's story, but him playing the victim is unacceptable to me. Whether it's just the nails or his own conscience, his reasons for becoming a traitor are weak IMO (in universe). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3271633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasphexia Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 So the fact that Angron found his true purpose wasn't enough for him? What was stopping him from accepting his Legion and complying the planet himself? I understand these are complex questions that the creators didn't stop to consider when they wrote Angron's story, but him playing the victim is unacceptable to me. Whether it's just the nails or his own conscience, his reasons for becoming a traitor are weak IMO (in universe). There's been half a dozen good accumulating reason as to why he finally cracked and went over, if anything he's had one of the more thorough explanations than what has been the average so far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3271639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Well he didn't wanted revenge on Nurceria, so until he returned there I doubt he wanted to revenge on Emps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3271708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 I don't think he wanted a revenge. Just an answer to "why?" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3271713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 The only release Angron ever had, was when he was totally lost in the nails. This was a being tormented full time, almost completely broken physically, and 99% mentally as well. You get only the smallest glimpses of what he could have been, and instead you see a being of nearly limitless potential that has been devistated in any number of ways. Why not betray the emperor earlier? Because he was already shown to be unable to finish the deed on his own when he was teleported away and despite the YEARS of having to listen to 'rawr Angron smash is all the World Eaters can do' he was still a Primarch with a level of intelligence one would expect. So he waits, and now given the chance he easily goes Traitor to maybe get his chance, when he obviously (Night of the Wolf) had philosophical differences with the Emperor, the Imperium, and the Great Crusade in the first place. There is a ton of psychology going on in this novel, and a lot of what Angron and the World Eaters do makes sense when viewed through the eye of someone who is truly damaged. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3271756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 I hope we get some answers to some of the more common sense questions fans have had for years regarding the Heresy at some point in these novels. One of the most asked is why in the world did the Big E just snatch Angron away from his slave army and let them die? Why didn't he either A. teleport them out as well or more likely considering how dangerous that would have been with so many people involved B. just send down Custodes or the World Eaters to wipe the local army out? Instead the Big E settled for C. teleport Angron, abandon his brothers and sisters and the only life he knew and foist a Legion on him and force him to kill for him. It just does not make any sense for the Big E to settle for option C. In this book it was refreshing to see Angron be tormented by this question and demand to know why. We as readers deserve to know why as well. As for the novel, it is typical ADB brilliance let loose on the world. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3276915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Very_Noisy_Marine Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 I actually thought the series had gotten a bit stale. I didn't even finish a couple of the more recent novels, but Betrayer was awesome! I could not put it down. I actually passed up a couple of compelling social engagements to keep reading. Thanks ADB for such a great experience. The character development in this book was masterful. Top 3 HH novels for sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3276972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMaster Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 The Emperor may not have liked the company his son was keeping, thus leaving them to die. That Angron later went on to become a piece of :) oath-breaking bastard-psycho with no real honor is probably because of the nails. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3277136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 The Ultramarines and everyone else who has gone to Ultramar. Except for that really really big mural of Sanguinius smiting the heck out of traitors and daemons on the gate leading to the throne room and end of FTT/cover of Unremembered Empire having the BA crew hanging in Ultramar really kind of muddies that issue up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3277142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 The War is only started in FTT and Emperor Secundus. Later Sanguinius went to Terra, in time to save the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3277182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Well I stumbled upon this quote, I am not sure if it is legit, but it fits nicely within context of discussion of the Angron - Emps relationship. The Emperor was a brilliant scientist, a powerful warrior, and great psyker, but he was a terrible father... Roboute Guilliman Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3277210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Well, wouldn't you be tired of having kids after ~38k years of doing the deed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3277259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Erebus Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 The exchanges between Argel Tal and Khârn, and Lorgar and Erebus regarding Calth were quite revealing to me. Argel Tal basically puts out that Calth had been an operation designed to purge the Word Bearers of their unreliable elements. In effect we have Lorgar sacrificing half of his fleet and a portion of his legion in an effort for his legion to become competent, or that is how I took it to be anyway. Lorgar seems saddened by the legion's losses but failure on the part of Kor Phaeron and Erebus to achieve complete victory doesn't seem that much of a surprise. It's as if he expected those two to fail because of their pride and hubris, and it possibly reflects how distant the Word Bearers Primarch has become from what were his two most trusted advisers.. I like Erebus as a character but the dressing down he received from Lorgar (in the form of sarcastic wit rather than anger or rage) was quite amusing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3278408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMaster Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Well I stumbled upon this quote, I am not sure if it is legit, but it fits nicely within context of discussion of the Angron - Emps relationship. The Emperor was a brilliant scientist, a powerful warrior, and great psyker, but he was a terrible father... Roboute Guilliman That quote is absolutely silly, and to see it be given the light of day is laughable. "and great psyker" Guilliman and his grammar eh? rofl this quote was written as in a joke article about the Emperor and then people decides to flash it around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3278471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 The exchanges between Argel Tal and Khârn, and Lorgar and Erebus regarding Calth were quite revealing to me. Argel Tal basically puts out that Calth had been an operation designed to purge the Word Bearers of their unreliable elements. In effect we have Lorgar sacrificing half of his fleet and a portion of his legion in an effort for his legion to become competent, or that is how I took it to be anyway. Lorgar seems saddened by the legion's losses but failure on the part of Kor Phaeron and Erebus to achieve complete victory doesn't seem that much of a surprise. It's as if he expected those two to fail because of their pride and hubris, and it possibly reflects how distant the Word Bearers Primarch has become from what were his two most trusted advisers.. I like Erebus as a character but the dressing down he received from Lorgar (in the form of sarcastic wit rather than anger or rage) was quite amusing. I enjoyed it myself, another step on the path for Lorgar further evolving him to more of a pragmatist, and less emotionally connected to his sons. The old Lorgar would not have spent his sons lives so ruthlessly. (unless you count sending them into the Eye of Terror, but you could call that the first step on the path.) He has also evolved past the man Erebus and Kor Phaeron secretly despised for his weakness. He now despises them and somewhat pities them because he knows that they don't know as much as they think they do. (Add Ahriman to this list as well.) Layers within layers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3278502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaSY Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 According to Betrayer, it was said that the warp storm was supposed to cut Ultramar from the rest of galaxy for centuries if not mistaken... There must be something happened for Blood Angels and White Scars(if im nt mistaken about Unremembered Empire cover/elements that wasnt with Khan in Chondax) to be able to go to Terra Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3278626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Since I haven't read Betrayer yet I tried to avoid this topic, but I'd like to know if it's depicted in the novel where does Khârn come from?? Thnx!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267769-betrayer/page/8/#findComment-3278940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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