I need advice on 40K RPG Books

[Cmdr Shepard]

Greetings Brothers and Sisters,

I need your help.

I'm thinking about buy some FFG 40K RPG books mainly for fluff reasons, even though I'm sure I'll use them for play some game too .

I heard many good things on such books so I decided to move my first step into 40K RPG universe.

The problem is I don't know what buying first. I'm facing a hard dilemma so I come here to ask for the community help.

For now I thought about these products:

Deathwatch: I always loved the Deathwatch and I find it one of the most interesting organization in 40K fluff. Getting it will make me expand a side of Astartes fluff I always liked.

Rogue Trader: a quite interesting concept since we don't see Rogue Traders stuff very often in "standard" 40K (I referring the the 40K we all play )

They are mentioned in several BL books (Eisenhorn series and Priest of Mars, for example) but we don't have a great to expand our knowledge about this apsect of 40K unverse. Beside Rogue Trader RPG should deal with uncharted reagions of the Galaxy and that could be useful for the fluff I'd like to write for my DIY Chapter.

Black Crusade: I'm thinking about it manly due to an incoming release forcused on Slaanesh and I'm curious to know something more on a matter rarely expanded by "standard" (as before the common 40K we deal with every day fluff. However it is no a very close release.

So if I'd like to choose using the "rule of cool" what would suggest?

Also if I'll decide to play some RPG with my friends which of the three will be more interesting, fun to play?

I really need your help so please feel free to post whatever opinion you have on this matter.

Thank You very much.

[Shuggnuggath]

In my opinion, from a GMing perspective Deathwatch is the most straightforward to run. The spacemarines are given a mission and they carry it out with the means at their disposal. Its up to the GM to throw them some complications in their path and for the most part the goals are fairly linear. I would recommend Deathwatch without reservations for a fairly novice group of players and above.

 

Rogue Trader is a bit more freeform. In a sense the characters have already achieved what would be major goals in some other games. The have a massive spaceship with a crew of thousands and entire armies at their command. In many ways it needs a GM that can 'think on the fly'. I would recommend it to experienced players and GMs. Interesting plots will probably revolve around political manoeuvring.

 

Black Crusade probably sits somewhere between these two extremes. Likely with more backstabbing and shenanigans between the players if they follow different gods.

 

All the 40k RPG books offer a treasure trove of information and are great for just reading for their own benefit. 

[Cmdr Shepard]

In my opinion, from a GMing perspective Deathwatch is the most straightforward to run. The spacemarines are given a mission and they carry it out with the means at their disposal. Its up to the GM to throw them some complications in their path and for the most part the goals are fairly linear. I would recommend Deathwatch without reservations for a fairly novice group of players and above.

Rogue Trader is a bit more freeform. In a sense the characters have already achieved what would be major goals in some other games. The have a massive spaceship with a crew of thousands and entire armies at their command. In many ways it needs a GM that can 'think on the fly'. I would recommend it to experienced players and GMs. Interesting plots will probably revolve around political manoeuvring.

Black Crusade probably sits somewhere between these two extremes. Likely with more backstabbing and shenanigans between the players if they follow different gods.

All the 40k RPG books offer a treasure trove of information and are great for just reading for their own benefit.

Thanks for the info Shuggnuggath

I heard all 40K RPG are so great that a true fan of that universe will find them very interesting just for the info we get. The game aspect is also a bonus ;)

I have to admit I'd been tempted to buy DW several times. My only concern, if we can call it actually a concern, is the fact it is about an aspect of 40K we deal with everyday. I think I lost the count of the standard 40K matches I played with SM in my life. The amount of info on the DW is however a good reason to buy it.

I mentioned Rogue Trader because it is built around completely different from the tabletop armies we play. Is it really too much complicated for who is not a RPG veteran?

So if a tabletop veteran (and with veteran I mean someone who played a lot of 40K matches ;) ) would like to explore less conventional aspects of that universe what would you suggest?

Also is there one of those games which is actually less fun to play than the other. Having the chance to play a fun game is bonus to all the great fluff we get with the books.

Thank You again. As I said I'm facing a dilemma. I thought to get more than one of these "game systems" but perhaps it would be better to choose one and get some expansion...

[Jareddm]

I completely disagree with Shuggnuggath. Of the three original 40k RPGs (dark heresy, rogue trader, and deathwatch) Deathwatch is by far the most complicated as the players start with significantly more powers and abilities at their disposal. Black Crusade and Only War had a major shift in design principles and for the most part are significantly more streamlined than the previous three. . That said, Deathwatch is my favorite of the five and the information regarding the deathwatch and the Jericho Reach is excellent. Just keep in mind that it's all from an RPG perspective, meaning there's a lot more loose ends, and a lot more mystery designed for you to fill in the truth in your campaign. This is true of information from all five lines.

 

Now I don't have a lot of experience with Black Crusade but I do have experience with Only War, which was designed around the changes made in Black Crusade. I would definietely see those two as more of a beginner's RPG than Deathwatch. Rogue Trader is also very open to players given the freedom it offers them, but like Deathwatch, you're starting at a significantly higher level of play. You're never going to be looting bodies, for instance.

 

Again, if you're just buying for fluff, then all of them are excellent and the supplements even moreso.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I completely disagree with Shuggnuggath. Of the three original 40k RPGs (dark heresy, rogue trader, and deathwatch) Deathwatch is by far the most complicated as the players start with significantly more powers and abilities at their disposal. Black Crusade and Only War had a major shift in design principles and for the most part are significantly more streamlined than the previous three. . That said, Deathwatch is my favorite of the five and the information regarding the deathwatch and the Jericho Reach is excellent. Just keep in mind that it's all from an RPG perspective, meaning there's a lot more loose ends, and a lot more mystery designed for you to fill in the truth in your campaign. This is true of information from all five lines.

Now I don't have a lot of experience with Black Crusade but I do have experience with Only War, which was designed around the changes made in Black Crusade. I would definietely see those two as more of a beginner's RPG than Deathwatch. Rogue Trader is also very open to players given the freedom it offers them, but like Deathwatch, you're starting at a significantly higher level of play. You're never going to be looting bodies, for instance.

Again, if you're just buying for fluff, then all of them are excellent and the supplements even moreso.

Thanks for the info on your reply.

Even though I'm buying them for fluff I'm sure I'll end with playing some match (I know it will happen ;) ) so I was looking for something with cool fluff and fun game mechanics.

Does the starting at a significantly level of play create confunsion/difficulties in getting into the game?

I'm not a veteran of RPG but I'm not completely stranger to the genre (I suppose the videogames RPGs do not count so I don't consider myself a veteran ; ).

I forgot to mention Only War because I was looking for something different from the "typical IG soldier" point of view. Is it a truly amazing game?

The freedom coming from Rogue Trader is also very interesting.

In the end I'm looking for the product who can allow me to make a truly interesting characters... good or evil, the importance is they have style ;)

That's why I mentioned Rogue Trader and Black Crusade.

I know I'm making a lot of questions. These are my first steps into the 40 RPG universe. I really appreciate all of your comments, they are proving to be very helpful...

[Jareddm]

Well to be honest, any RPG is capable of making interesting characters. That's up to the players, not the game. Mechanically, I feel a new player would enjoy Rogue Trader for its immense freedom, or Only War for it's mechanical simplicity. In Only War, you're all part of the same regiment, which some people find as constricting, but I feel it helps keep the party cohesive, as character differences come more from personalities rather than every person being wildly different.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Well to be honest, any RPG is capable of making interesting characters. That's up to the players, not the game. Mechanically, I feel a new player would enjoy Rogue Trader for its immense freedom, or Only War for it's mechanical simplicity. In Only War, you're all part of the same regiment, which some people find as constricting, but I feel it helps keep the party cohesive, as character differences come more from personalities rather than every person being wildly different.

 

Very useful info. I run into FFG tutorial PDFs on their site for both Rogue Trader and Black Crusade (I looking for Only War one, if available, right now ;) ) and they are both interesting.

The first look amaizing wide in options, the second mix Astartes and humans which is interesting.

Do you have some info on Black Crusade too?

 

Anyway would expansion would you suggest for Rogue Trader? I read their descriptions and many of them look interesting.

 

I'm looking to the Only War pages right now. You made me curious about it as well ;). I always thought playing a mighty Astartes or a influent Rogue Trader would have made the story epic but IG is the core of humanity, which is quite epic on its own....

[Jareddm]

Personally I'm a fan of all of them, and if they updated the rules for Dark Heresy to be more in line with the newer lines, I'd love that one too.

 

Black Crusade consists of being a rag-tag group of renegades, heretics, hereteks, and chaos space marines, both newly turned and the millenia old kind. It takes place inside a steady warpstorm known as the Screaming Vortex (oh yeah, all of the RPG's settings connect and interact with one another) where there are hundreds of worlds that show all walks of life under chaos. And a handful of them are actually quite peaceful. The goal in Black Crusade is to build up a large enough reputation for yourself so by the time you hit 100 corruption, the gods will favor you enough to ascend you, rather than turning you into a warp spawn.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Personally I'm a fan of all of them, and if they updated the rules for Dark Heresy to be more in line with the newer lines, I'd love that one too.

 

Black Crusade consists of being a rag-tag group of renegades, heretics, hereteks, and chaos space marines, both newly turned and the millenia old kind. It takes place inside a steady warpstorm known as the Screaming Vortex (oh yeah, all of the RPG's settings connect and interact with one another) where there are hundreds of worlds that show all walks of life under chaos. And a handful of them are actually quite peaceful. The goal in Black Crusade is to build up a large enough reputation for yourself so by the time you hit 100 corruption, the gods will favor you enough to ascend you, rather than turning you into a warp spawn.

 

The fact all the RPG settings connect and interact with each other is positive, since it allows us to create larger stories ;)

So if I understood correctly both Rogue Trader and Black Crusade focus on the conquest of worlds in addition to the typical combat/interact scenes. Am I wrong?

I'm not surprised you are a fan of all of them. I just spent few hours reading through mere descriptions and I start to like those book a lot... that's the reason I'm not undecided about the first purchase ;)

 

Which would choose between Rogue Trader and Black Crusade if you had to choose your first 40K rpg book?

Also is there some expansion you would recommend? I plan to buy a core rulebook, the game master kit and one of the expansions for the "system" I'll choose.

 

If all goes as planned and I manage to play a good number of matches I could write some story inspired by the events that took place in the game itself... if I'll ever had the time to write stories... I have still to write a brief narrative report for two small 40K campaign I'm currently playing ;)

[Jareddm]

Rogue Trader's more than just conquering planets. It's about exploiting them for profit as well :)

It's about setting up trade routes and colonies, discovering hidden treasure, bringing in pirates (or allying with them). Out beyond the borders of the Imperium, not even the Inquisition technically has jurisdiction over a Rogue Trader. Though he better make sure he cleans himself up before heading back into Imperial space.

 

As for supplements, Into the Storm is the player's handbook expansion and contains a lot of stuff that was intended for the main rulebook, as well as rules for ork freebootas and kroot mercenaries as playable characters. Definietely one I'd recommend. Battlefleet Koronus has a metric ton of new ships, and combat maneuvers. Unfortunately the planetary assault rules in it are pretty lacking. The Navis Primer has more information on navigators and astropaths than any other 40k source I can think of. In addition, a lot of the supplements work across multiple lines. For instance, Blood of Martyrs, an Ecclisiarchy supplement for Dark Heresy has plenty of detail on religious colonies and missionaries that would be perfect in Rogue Trader.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Rogue Trader's more than just conquering planets. It's about exploiting them for profit as well

It's about setting up trade routes and colonies, discovering hidden treasure, bringing in pirates (or allying with them). Out beyond the borders of the Imperium, not even the Inquisition technically has jurisdiction over a Rogue Trader. Though he better make sure he cleans himself up before heading back into Imperial space.

As for supplements, Into the Storm is the player's handbook expansion and contains a lot of stuff that was intended for the main rulebook, as well as rules for ork freebootas and kroot mercenaries as playable characters. Definietely one I'd recommend. Battlefleet Koronus has a metric ton of new ships, and combat maneuvers. Unfortunately the planetary assault rules in it are pretty lacking. The Navis Primer has more information on navigators and astropaths than any other 40k source I can think of. In addition, a lot of the supplements work across multiple lines. For instance, Blood of Martyrs, an Ecclisiarchy supplement for Dark Heresy has plenty of detail on religious colonies and missionaries that would be perfect in Rogue Trader.

It looks a very good way to explore an unique and unconventional side of 40K universe. I always found the Rogue Traders fluff intriguing but there is not much info in the "standard" fluff. I use the word standard to indetify the fluff directly connected with the tabletop aspect.

I think I just found my first 40K RPG purchase then, even though I'm sure I'll buy the other somewhen in the near future ;)

I thank you once more for your help. You have been very helpful

[Shuggnuggath]

Personally I feel that Deathwatch and Dark Heresy are pretty straightforward from a scenario/mission design perspective. The characters will have a very defined set of mission objectives they need to achieve in order to succeed. The characters will receive the mission from their Watch Captain or Inquisitor.

 

I didn't find the Space Marines abilities that complicated. Anyone who is a fan of marines has a rough idea of what the special organ implants are about. One of the good things about marines is they have really decent combat capability and are unlikely to die in their first engagement. To make it a bit simpler at first just leave out squad mode and maybe even hordes. 

Make sure to use the errata'ed weapons table from the FFG website.

 

From my admittedly limited experience of Rogue Trader the players could very likely decide to ignore the scenario the GM spent weeks designing and fly off to do something random somewhere else at the drop of a hat. The GM needs to think on his toes a lot more.

[Growler67]

IMHO, if you are seeking more depth to the background info and fluff regarding the inner workings of the DW......you will not find it in the Deathwatch BRB.  It does serve to substantiate the basics of the Adeptus Astartes though.  Sure a few tidbits are thrown in here and there but far too few and far between for my tastes.  I've already read all the shorts, paperbacks and the graphic novel.  I've preordered "the Deathwatch" from the BL, releasing this month.  I imagine that will be a better source than the RPG BRB, but that is a WAG not having the book in my hands to read.

 

I've got the BRB and all the expansion modules.  Some of the story lines are better written than others and some campaigns are more appealing than others.  It would be a pretty good place to start off RPGing though.  Get the GM kit though, it's worth it.

[Jareddm]

IMHO, if you are seeking more depth to the background info and fluff regarding the inner workings of the DW......you will not find it in the Deathwatch BRB.  It does serve to substantiate the basics of the Adeptus Astartes though.  Sure a few tidbits are thrown in here and there but far too few and far between for my tastes.  I've already read all the shorts, paperbacks and the graphic novel.  I've preordered "the Deathwatch" from the BL, releasing this month.  I imagine that will be a better source than the RPG BRB, but that is a WAG not having the book in my hands to read.

 

I've got the BRB and all the expansion modules.  Some of the story lines are better written than others and some campaigns are more appealing than others.  It would be a pretty good place to start off RPGing though.  Get the GM kit though, it's worth it.

Sure, the base rulebook isn't going to have everything in extreme detail, but it's certainly more than has been previously detailed on them.   Rites of Battle had a huge section on the inner workings of Watch Fortress Erioch as well as more unique roles in the DW, such as DW chaplains and keepers. From what I can gather, each Watch Fortress is more or less independent with its own standards and traditions depending on where it's located and who's in charge.  Thus the diversity in how the Deathwatch functions across the galaxy is pretty substantial.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I found the wealth of info you all posted very interesting and useful, Brothers!

The reason I was oriented towards Rogue Trader is actually that freedom of movement/play. I'll make it a little more clear. I don't know how many players I'll ever be able to find if I decide to play some 40k RPG match. Two (me included) is certain , three is possible; so if players can go and do some random stuff without the need of an "omniscient" game master it means I could actually start playing as I try to expand the "game base"

We must consider we have to be more "selective" (I don't like to use that word when it comes to games but I hope it will help to make the concept clear) when looking for new players.

For example most of the win at all costs players I met in standard 40K would probably ruin a RPG game. Several of tried to cheat more than in one 40K match and while in such context you can handle them, in a RPG game they will likely ruin the fun. RPG is more about the players after all

That's why I'd like to start with my trusted friends who will never ruin a gaming experience. Rogue Trader freedom of action could benefit us when we move the first steps into the RPG universe ;)

I have one more question: In those RPGs we can use our minis to represent our characters right? So I could get the inpiration to convert a good looking mini and I could even use it in a standard 40K matches....

[Black_Sky]

Dark Heresy follows a very standard RPG format. The gamemaster designs a plot with twists and turns, the players, acolytes of an inquisitor, follows the subtle leads, until such a time that they can unravel whatever mystery the gamemaster designed. The players will be very weak compared to the following games. And as a party they need to work together, as not all will know how to handle tech, drive a car or even read and write.

 

Deathwatch is a mission based RPG, following a squad of deathwatch marines as they complete missions during their tenure. The players will be extremely powerfull compared to the other games, and will be able to handle a lot of different opponents. The squad will rutinely come up against the most iconic foes from the tabletop game, and triumph. As an RPG it explores what it means to have trancended humanity, and how to relate to the mortals around you, as well as brotherhood amongst the squadmembers, despite their different chapter backgrounds.

 

Only War follows a squad of soldiers, as they are tossed from one battlefield to the next. Becoming a guardsman means giving your entire life to the Imperium. The power level is slightly more advanced than Dark Crusade, with more powerfull weapons available, and more skills at character creation. The game incorporates the "no-class" system from Black Crusade. Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch's character system all revolves around fixed classes, with several ranks in each. once you have accrued enough xp, you will advance to the next rank, and unlock the option of spending xp on more advanced abilities. Black Crusade and Only War has the entire skill and talent list open for all characters, but experience costs rise and fall depending on the gods you worship, or the regiment and starting class of your soldier.

 

Rogue Trader and Black Crusade are sandbox games for players. While there is the option for the gamemaster to create a structured campaign, there is also the option of the players goofing around, doing whatever they might fancy. The Rogue Trader (Can be player controlled) will try to amass as much wealth as possible. The Chaos Renegades will try to advance their personal status in order to rise to daemonhood, or even lead a Black Crusade against the Imperium.

Power level in rogue trader is somewhere between Dark Heresy/Only War and Deathwatch. In Black Crusade is is slightly more divergent with levels around Rogue trader mortals and Deathwatch Legionaires.

 

 

Personally I prefer Black Crusade for the freedom in playstyle it presents it's players and the gamemaster. The players aren't restricted in how they want to evolve their characters skills, and the gamemaster has the option of letting the players loose on the galaxy, whenever he needs a break from structured plots.

 

My friends and I also tried converting the aptitude system from Only War to Rogue Trader with some success, and I'm definately warming up to that game.

 

As for as gamemastering goes, Rogue Trader features the weakest gallery of opponents of all the systemt core rulebooks, something a game about exotic alien races sorely needs, and I can only recommend getting some of the supplements in order to enhance the villain gallery.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Thank you for your detailed analysis of the various game systems, Black_Sky!

I ordered ordered Rogue Trader rulebook, RT GM kit, Into the storm and Black Crusade rulebook. They should arrive on Monday, if all goes as planned ;).

I'm gald to see I made the right choice. Since I'm making my first steps into 40K RPG universe I believe the freedom in playstyle could be a benefit to my gaming experience.

If I manage to find a good amout of time I plan to start a Rogue Trader "campaign" and a Black Crusade one. If free time will be lacking I'd choose one and start with it. What would you suggest for my first 40K RPG matches? Black Crusade for the reasons you posted above or Rogue Trader for the chance to venture into the farthest reaches of the Galaxy?

Anyway I have to say Rogue Trader and Black Crusade soon appeared to me the more "charismatic" of the 40K RPG systems. I don't know why, I just had that impression.

As I mentioned in my previous posts, I really like the Deathwatch in the 40K fluff but both Rogue Trader and Black Crusade seemed to give me a playstyle a little different from the common themes we found in the tabletop version. As I said just an intuition ;)