Scars

[b1soul]

It really seems that the bromance between Jaghatai and Russ has been retconned...probably in an effort to distinguish/distance the two "barbarian" legions from each other. I am really looking forward to interaction between these two primarchs in Wraight's new novel

[Emperor's Furor]

Yeah the white scar librarian in Brotherhood of the Storm told the munitorium officer not to bring up the space wolves as people have done compared them in the past and the white scars find it a great insult now.

[Gree]

So this is about the White Scars revealing their ''true allegiances''. Might that mean the Khan tried to join Horus? Is there anything especially interesting in the spoilers?

It really seems that the bromance between Jaghatai and Russ has been retconned...probably in an effort to distinguish/distance the two "barbarian" legions from each other. I am really looking forward to interaction between these two primarchs in Wraight's new novel

Did they ever have a bromance in the first place? Besides the whole barbarian motif?

[Emperor's Furor]

 

So this is about the White Scars revealing their ''true allegiances''. Might that mean the Khan tried to join Horus? Is there anything especially interesting in the spoilers?

It really seems that the bromance between Jaghatai and Russ has been retconned...probably in an effort to distinguish/distance the two "barbarian" legions from each other. I am really looking forward to interaction between these two primarchs in Wraight's new novel

Did they ever have a bromance in the first place? Besides the whole barbarian motif?

Well going from Brotherhood of the Storm Horus expected the Khan to keep his oath when it came down to it, however the Khan appeared worried by what was going on. In Scars we are given the backstory on two khans from the white scars, one Terran and one Chorgris who were both in Brotherhood of the Storm.

[Marshal Rohr]

It would be a nice twist if the Terran White Scars side with Horus and the natives stay loyal. Kind of a flip flop from everybody else.

[Emperor's Furor]

I don't think that's a twist, I think that's the way it's going already.

[b1soul]

@Gree:

 

In Collected Visions, they are described as the closest of brothers. That's one of the reasons the Khan finds it very hard to abandon the SW to the AL...but he does so because the Emp needs the Scars at Terra ASAP

[Emperor's Furor]

Well that doesn't appear to be true now, otherwise why would the Librarian and Legion as a whole be insulted by being compared to the Space Wolves?

[godking]

Well that doesn't appear to be true now, otherwise why would the Librarian and Legion as a whole be insulted by being compared to the Space Wolves?

Because they are not spacewolves completly different views abbout how to conduct warfare . That does not mean that they dont like each other.

 

I can see Russ and Jaghatai as friends their differences are not such  that they can't be friends.

 

Jaghatai and Guilliman however.......

 

If they had to work together for an extended period of time they would have come to blows.

[Emperor's Furor]

They see it as an insult though, you'd be honoured to be compared to a friendly legion or one you respected.

[Gree]

Well going from Brotherhood of the Storm Horus expected the Khan to keep his oath when it came down to it, however the Khan appeared worried by what was going on. In Scars we are given the backstory on two khans from the white scars, one Terran and one Chorgris who were both in Brotherhood of the Storm.

In retrospect this seems like it would cheapen the whole deal with the Dark Angels. Suddenly the Fallen and the terrible big secret the DA have seems not as bad if a bunch of White Scars declared for Horus.

 

Didn't some Iron Hands also turned traitor? I heard something about that as well?

Jaghatai and Guilliman however.......

 

If they had to work together for an extended period of time they would have come to blows.

Why would they have to come to blows? I don't recall Guilliman as having any particular issue with the Khan.

[b1soul]

In retrospect this seems like it would cheapen the whole deal with the Dark Angels. Suddenly the Fallen and the terrible big secret the DA have seems not as bad if a bunch of White Scars declared for Horus.

 

Didn't some Iron Hands also turned traitor? I heard something about that as well

 

Really depends on how many Terran White Scars there are. I'm guessing that by the time of the late Crusade/Horus Heresy, only a small fraction of the White Scars are Terran and maybe not all the Terrans turn. I believe close to half the DA turn.

 

A Raven Guard defected to the Night Lords. Don't think any Iron Hands have turned traitor. Post-Heresy, the Iron Hands experience an internal schism and a portion of them are exiled to become the Sons of Medusa. The Sons of Medusa remain staunchly loyalist though. The schism only occurs over a difference in Mechanicus creed.

 

 

Well

that doesn't appear to be true now, otherwise why would the Librarian

and Legion as a whole be insulted by being compared to the Space Wolves?

 

Yes I agree...the brotherhood between the Khan and Russ seems to have been retconned.

 

There is a possibility that perhaps the two legions are quite friendly but

the Scars still don't like to be compared to the Wolves because the

Scars feel they're very different from the Wolves in spirit. Sort of

like "yes, we're friends with the SW but we have a fierce pride in our

own identity".

 

It does seem a bit odd that the Scars would be so vehemently against such comparisons if they were close

friends with the Wolves.

[Greyall]

Actually, it wouldn't. Like you said, it's not the object of comparison per se, it's the fact most people just go down the "both use pelts and cut heads = now kiss" route. I'm sure the Scars and the Wolves endured a not-so-little amount of people just putting them in the same file under "Barbarians". If they went along nicely, surely it was because they were both freedom-loving, rule-despising, down to earth guys, not because they were 'Barbarians'.

 

So it makes sense that they felt offended for both the Legions, to an extent, if that comparison was made.

[godking]

 

Well going from Brotherhood of the Storm Horus expected the Khan to keep his oath when it came down to it, however the Khan appeared worried by what was going on. In Scars we are given the backstory on two khans from the white scars, one Terran and one Chorgris who were both in Brotherhood of the Storm.

In retrospect this seems like it would cheapen the whole deal with the Dark Angels. Suddenly the Fallen and the terrible big secret the DA have seems not as bad if a bunch of White Scars declared for Horus.

 

Didn't some Iron Hands also turned traitor? I heard something about that as well?

>Jaghatai and Guilliman however.......

 

If they had to work together for an extended period of time they would have come to blows.

Why would they have to come to blows? I don't recall Guilliman as having any particular issue with the Khan.

 

Come to blows is an over exaggeration but mr logistics and the center is where i am jaghatai Khan would find it very difficult at best to work together.  The white scars already had issues with Terran white scars finding it hard to conform to Chogorian warfare and the empires logistics department not knowing where they where.

 

Guilliman and the Khan where not enemies but are too different to ever work together effectivelly.

[Gree]

 

 

Well going from Brotherhood of the Storm Horus expected the Khan to keep his oath when it came down to it, however the Khan appeared worried by what was going on. In Scars we are given the backstory on two khans from the white scars, one Terran and one Chorgris who were both in Brotherhood of the Storm.

In retrospect this seems like it would cheapen the whole deal with the Dark Angels. Suddenly the Fallen and the terrible big secret the DA have seems not as bad if a bunch of White Scars declared for Horus.

 

Didn't some Iron Hands also turned traitor? I heard something about that as well?

>Jaghatai and Guilliman however.......

 

If they had to work together for an extended period of time they would have come to

blows.

Why would they have to come to blows? I don't recall Guilliman as having any particular issue with the Khan.

Come to blows is an over exaggeration but mr logistics and the center is where i am jaghatai Khan would find it very difficult at best to work together.  The white scars already had issues with Terran white scars finding it hard to conform to Chogorian warfare and the empires logistics department not knowing where they where.

 

Guilliman and the Khan where not enemies but are too different to ever work together effectivelly.

 

 

Guilliman calls Russ one of his most trusted allies in Know No Fear. Guilliman may not exactly like the khan, but if he can work well with Russ he can work effectively with the Khan. They already fought together at Ullanor at least.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

 

 

 

Well going from Brotherhood of the Storm Horus expected the Khan to keep his oath when it came down to it, however the Khan appeared worried by what was going on. In Scars we are given the backstory on two khans from the white scars, one Terran and one Chorgris who were both in Brotherhood of the Storm.

In retrospect this seems like it would cheapen the whole deal with the Dark Angels. Suddenly the Fallen and the terrible big secret the DA have seems not as bad if a bunch of White Scars declared for Horus.

 

Didn't some Iron Hands also turned traitor? I heard something about that as well?

>Jaghatai and Guilliman however.......

 

If they had to work together for an extended period of time they would have come to

blows.

Why would they have to come to blows? I don't recall Guilliman as having any particular issue with the Khan.

Come to blows is an over exaggeration but mr logistics and the center is where i am jaghatai Khan would find it very difficult at best to work together.  The white scars already had issues with Terran white scars finding it hard to conform to Chogorian warfare and the empires logistics department not knowing where they where.

 

Guilliman and the Khan where not enemies but are too different to ever work together effectivelly.

 

Guilliman calls Russ one of his most trusted allies in Know No Fear. Guilliman may not exactly like the khan, but if he can work well with Russ he can work effectively with the Khan. They already fought together at Ullanor at least.

 

+1 

 

Just because they don't see eye to eye does not mean they can'f fight well together, just Guillimans organisational and dictatorial skills which he uses best in a honorable battle would of been seen as to cumbersome to Kharns eyes as Guilliman would of despised Kharns combat tactics of withdrawing to re deploy (probs would of seen as cowardly) Guillimans combat style is his social weakness, but at least he is willing to change his views and perceptions  

and admit truths. Guilliman and Khârn would be my to most ideal generals to fight beside. 

[godking]

 

 

 

Well going from Brotherhood of the Storm Horus expected the Khan to keep his oath when it came down to it, however the Khan appeared worried by what was going on. In Scars we are given the backstory on two khans from the white scars, one Terran and one Chorgris who were both in Brotherhood of the Storm.

In retrospect this seems like it would cheapen the whole deal with the Dark Angels. Suddenly the Fallen and the terrible big secret the DA have seems not as bad if a bunch of White Scars declared for Horus.

 

Didn't some Iron Hands also turned traitor? I heard something about that as well?

>Jaghatai and Guilliman however.......

 

If they had to work together for an extended period of time they would have come to

blows.

Why would they have to come to blows? I don't recall Guilliman as having any particular issue with the Khan.

Come to blows is an over exaggeration but mr logistics and the center is where i am jaghatai Khan would find it very difficult at best to work together.  The white scars already had issues with Terran white scars finding it hard to conform to Chogorian warfare and the empires logistics department not knowing where they where.

 

Guilliman and the Khan where not enemies but are too different to ever work together effectivelly.

 

Guilliman calls Russ one of his most trusted allies in Know No Fear. Guilliman may not exactly like the khan, but if he can work well with Russ he can work effectively with the Khan. They already fought together at Ullanor at least.

 

Russ is different from Guilliman but understands and can use the concept of logistics and will usually be where he is supposed to be. Jaghatai understands logistics but has to be forced to use it and will be where he wants to be not where you want him to be.

 

Are Guilliman and Jaghatai going to come to blows no.

 

Will there be a ''what the fxck are you doing'' moment from Guilliman when the Khan is not where he is supposed to be to back him up most certainly.

 

The center is where Jaghatai is and if you cant keep up thats to bad for you the munitorium can only ''ask'' the White Scars to slow down down so the can keep up Guilliman would not ask.

 

Next to that Guilliman is at his core an empire builder Jaghatai at his core is an empire destroyer.

[Gree]

Russ is different from Guilliman but understands and can use the concept of logistics and will usually be where he is supposed to be. Jaghatai understands logistics but has to be forced to use it and will be where he wants to be not where you want him to be.

 

Are Guilliman and Jaghatai going to come to blows no.

 

Will there be a ''what the fxck are you doing'' moment from Guilliman when the Khan is not where he is supposed to be to back him up most certainly.

 

The center is where Jaghatai is and if you cant keep up thats to bad for you the munitorium can only ''ask'' the White Scars to slow down down so the can keep up Guilliman would not ask.

 

Next to that Guilliman is at his core an empire builder Jaghatai at his core is an empire destroyer.

Well you could say that I guess, but I'd have to say you are selling Guilliman too short.

[Emperor's Furor]

Guilliman likes everything arranged and organised, the Khan goes and does what he wants and to hell with anyone who can't keep up, I think they'd not work well together but wouldn't hate each other on a personal level.

[Kol Saresk]

On the inverse, they could work very well together. Khan can keep the enemy disorganized while Guilliman readies the crushing blow. That was part of the beauty of the Legions. While each one was modular, when they came together it would be like watching an orchestra where all these different, seemingly unrelated parts could come together and make one heck of a performance.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Jaghatai and Guilliman however.......

If they had to work together for an extended period of time they would have come to blows.

Why would they have to come to blows? I don't recall Guilliman as having any particular issue with the Khan.

Because there is a general dislike of the Ultramarines, and people want to believe that their favorite chapter isn't friends with them.

As far as a fluff justification, there isn't one. Guilliman would have used the Scars to their best potential, and assumed any of their shortcomings were something he could not affect. Guilliman was a master of warfare. He knew how to integrate the Imperial Army, and space assets, and titans, etc, and utilize their strengths and weaknesses. Incorporating the abilities and limitations of the White Scars would have been just another cog to figure out where it fit in the machine.

People seem to have this imaginary view of Guilliman where he was unable to get along with anyone because he was quoted once as calling the Alpha Legion's tactics a waste of time and ammunition, and Alpharius took offense to it.

[Emperor's Furor]

How can you factor in something that is impossible to predict?

[Kol Saresk]

By minimizing any possible effects. Any battle will have many "impossible factors". Part of Guilliman's ability isn't that he gets rid of these impossibilities, but that he does what he can to make them work for him. The White Scars actually present a pleasant advantage to someone like Guilliman. If you cannot predict what your allies will do, then there is very little chance of your enemy predicting their movements as well.

[b1soul]

Guilliman calls Russ one of his most trusted allies in Know No Fear. Guilliman may not exactly like the khan, but if he can work well with Russ he can work effectively with the Khan. They already fought together at Ullanor at least.

 

Being able to work well with Russ =/= being able to work well with the Khan

 

The SW and WS fight very differently

 

So it makes sense that they felt offended for both the Legions, to an extent, if that comparison was made.

 

The Khan and Russ probably respect each other as fearsome warriors with similar values in some respects but they likely also recognise the major differences between the two of them and their legions. I still find it a bit odd that the Khan is closer to Horus than he is to Russ, but I'm interested in how Wraight explains it

 

 

Russ

is different from Guilliman but understands and can use the concept of

logistics and will usually be where he is supposed to be. Jaghatai

understands logistics but has to be forced to use it and will be where

he wants to be not where you want him to be.

 

Yes it seems like the SW are more willing to compromise and cooperate if such cooperation will more efficiently achieve a goal

 

 

Guilliman

likes everything arranged and organised, the Khan goes and does what he

wants and to hell with anyone who can't keep up, I think they'd not

work well together but wouldn't hate each other on a personal level.

The question of whether Bobby and the Khan will work well together really turns on whether Bobby will try to control the Khan. Bobby loves to manage. The Khan hates to be managed.

 

Bobby probably knows this. Will he still try to manage the Khan?

[Wade Garrett]

The White Scars actually present a pleasant advantage to someone like Guilliman. If you cannot predict what your allies will do, then there is very little chance of your enemy predicting their movements as well.

Umm...no.

How can you assemble any sort of practical or theoretical when you have no earthly idea what your ally/support forces are up to? Are the Scars guarding your flanks like they should be? In the middle of the area you've just told your artillery to flatten? Only the Khan knows, and he's not overly fond of staying in touch.

 

Rob would work better with Angron, at least you know he's hurling the bulk of his army at the thickest concentration of the enemy as fast as possible.