Greyall Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Having not read any WS material, I have to ask: are they THAT unpredictable, or just uncontrollable? Garrett mentioned Angron, and while he's a loose cannon, he's not exactly an unpredictable fellow, as stated. Posts here have talked about the Legion being constantly on the move and very self-minded. In Know no Fear, Roboute greatly admires the Khan's warcraft skills, and he does mention his wild ways as being a downside, but only for him and only preventing the Khan from making it to Roboute's Top 5 Every-War-Winning Primarchs. It is indeed possible that there's a conflict of personalities, the main one being, I think, the Khan's strict warfaring ways vs Guilliman's adaptability and versatility. Obviously, Horus' way of war integrates the Khan in a much smoother way, since he serves as a speartip for his "Go for the head" strategy. That doesn't mean Guilliman and the Khan couldn't work together, but I wouldn't put either in command of the other. That being said, no doubt Guilli would eventually see the greater good and adapt to take advantage of whatever strategy the Khan was employing. As for Russ+Khan, Russ is a self-righteous bastard who sees himself in blue everytime he looks in the mirror. He loves being the executioner and acts as if that position is a recognition of his moral high ground, when it is in fact due to the absence of one. Not to say he's a berserker, but he's a barbarian given a uniform and told to monitor his brothers...you can imagine how well that goes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Having not read any WS material, I have to ask: are they THAT unpredictable, or just uncontrollable? Garrett mentioned Angron, and while he's a loose cannon, he's not exactly an unpredictable fellow, as stated. Posts here have talked about the Legion being constantly on the move and very self-minded. In Know no Fear, Roboute greatly admires the Khan's warcraft skills, and he does mention his wild ways as being a downside, but only for him and only preventing the Khan from making it to Roboute's Top 5 Every-War-Winning Primarchs. It is indeed possible that there's a conflict of personalities, the main one being, I think, the Khan's strict warfaring ways vs Guilliman's adaptability and versatility. Obviously, Horus' way of war integrates the Khan in a much smoother way, since he serves as a speartip for his "Go for the head" strategy. That doesn't mean Guilliman and the Khan couldn't work together, but I wouldn't put either in command of the other. That being said, no doubt Guilli would eventually see the greater good and adapt to take advantage of whatever strategy the Khan was employing. As for Russ+Khan, Russ is a self-righteous bastard who sees himself in blue everytime he looks in the mirror. He loves being the executioner and acts as if that position is a recognition of his moral high ground, when it is in fact due to the absence of one. Not to say he's a berserker, but he's a barbarian given a uniform and told to monitor his brothers...you can imagine how well that goes. I personally think Roboute and Khan could work together under certain circumstances. I think in the end Roboute would leave Khan to do his thing and he would estimate the best use for his troops when coordinated with Khan's so that they are used in the most effective manner. As far as Russ and Khan go, I can't say I don't like Russ. He is a drinker and a boaster, but he is a leader with the full meaning of the word for me. He has great planning skills, he leads from the front inspiring his men who love him and I can't say he is a barbarian. Why? The discipline along with their sense of honor SW present is pretty high for "barbarians". The way they do war is indeed savage and bloodthirsty, but this has it's own pros. Simply Russ realized they are great as executioners and took the place he wanted (or the place meant for him and his legion) as an executioner. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I don't dislike Russ, he's positively awesome. Hell, one howl of his makes an entire Legion spasm uncontrollably. What I'm saying is that he's a wolf (in the wildest, purest sense of the term) on a leash handled by some very dangerous fellows (the Emperor, Malcador, the Custodes to a point). He loves his job as an Executioner and is prone to bouts of counter-intuitive enthusiasm, like it happened with the Thousand Sons and - supposedly - with at least one of the expunged Legions. Edit: actually, in the latter case, he was probably ordered to terminate them, it's just that we know he does it and talks about it with no problem at all." Truth be told, though, he does use his position rather responsibly, as well. His standoff with Angron was awesome, as were the fights with the Lion. In all those moments Russ came out on top as the better person. But when the Thousand Sons are involved the guy is close to insufferable, although even then I couldn't help cheer each time he howled. Effing awesome. I read in another forum something about the ranks of the White Scars being described as more jovial and that their "poetry" also applies to their behaviour and warfaring, meaning that they stick to rapid strikes not just out of pride but out of loving what they do. Yet the Khan seems to be - from what accounts I've read - a rather strict, harsh character. Kind of strange, though not implausible, if it is so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Actually, interestingly enough, I think A D-B managed to shift the whole "The Wolves killed one of Unknown Legions" to the night of the Wolf. It fills all the requirements. It's an event almost no one talks about in the Imperium at large, it was the first time the Wolves went to and attacked another Legion and it was still a censure. It was just one the World Eaters didn't obey. EDIT: Also, FW's Betrayal says that the War Hounds were actually the Emperor's first Executioners. And since they have a confirmed conflict with Thunder Warriors and the Unknown disappeared early enough in the Great Crusade that the only legends even hinting at their existence are seen at Terra, it is actually more probable that the pre-Angron XII did the deed. If the Unknown were indeed executed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Hadn't thought of that, very well put. I'll stick to my gut-feeling that they were also responsible for at least one of the other purges, if only because they are the Executioners/Guard Wolves in name and use by the Imperium, but your option is much more fact-based and Occam Razor-compliant. On that episode, I still can't reinforce how nearly-foolish it was to send a wolf to tame a rabid dog...sheesh, sometimes even an Emperor-admirer like me can't find a single way to stand for the Big E's decisions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 There's also hint about the role of Russ in Aurelian, where Lorgar is told that if he followed a certain future and refuted the Emperor, Russ and the Night Haunter would have cut his heart out and his Legion destroyed. In general though I think A D-B did a good job of enfolding Russ censuring a legion into the Night of the Wolf. It's explicitly stated that they've done it before, even if it didn't have the desired effect (Angron being Angron not withstanding) but it also leaves the fate of the lost Legions ambiguous. They may have been the victims of the Vlka Fenryka or the may not have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I don't dislike Russ, he's positively awesome. Hell, one howl of his makes an entire Legion spasm uncontrollably. What I'm saying is that he's a wolf (in the wildest, purest sense of the term) on a leash handled by some very dangerous fellows (the Emperor, Malcador, the Custodes to a point). He loves his job as an Executioner and is prone to bouts of counter-intuitive enthusiasm, like it happened with the Thousand Sons and - supposedly - with at least one of the expunged Legions. Edit: actually, in the latter case, he was probably ordered to terminate them, it's just that we know he does it and talks about it with no problem at all." Truth be told, though, he does use his position rather responsibly, as well. His standoff with Angron was awesome, as were the fights with the Lion. In all those moments Russ came out on top as the better person. But when the Thousand Sons are involved the guy is close to insufferable, although even then I couldn't help cheer each time he howled. Effing awesome. I read in another forum something about the ranks of the White Scars being described as more jovial and that their "poetry" also applies to their behaviour and warfaring, meaning that they stick to rapid strikes not just out of pride but out of loving what they do. Yet the Khan seems to be - from what accounts I've read - a rather strict, harsh character. Kind of strange, though not implausible, if it is so. I like both WS and SW to be honest with myself, but with the Thousand Sons it's a kinda complicated issue. Big E wanted them prosecuted by SW for their continued use of sorcery even after it was forbidden by the council of Nikea (we should not forget the damage caused to the Webway project by Magnus's spell), but Horus knew the hatred Russ felt towards the use of sorcery so he issued a different order: He ordered Russ to annihilate the SW instead of prosecuting them. Russ obeyed Horus's order and did what his superior asked him to do (with pleasure non the less) as was expected from him (Horus wasn't known as a traitor back then). Leman Russ is indeed a wolf, but as a wolf he is also a guardian and a teacher for his people (Native American Wolf traits), and has the good and the bad points of a wolf I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Russ took it upon himself to teach Angron a lesson, he did but Angron was to stubborn and bull headed to realise what Russ was trying to get at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Agreed, High Marshal, but there are jobs for which a wolf's bad traits outweight the bad - tragically. Of course, Valdor also advocated the Thousand Son's decimation, but Russ got his orders from the Emperor...couldn't he have asked? Actually, I kind of get that he hasn't, it's just that he really likes the idea and gets a +3 bonus to insufferable self-righteousness. Like a well trained wolf, he smelled enough blood in the air that he just bolted for the throat once the leash was loose. Overeager violence is very much a wild animal's trait. @WoT: But did Russ really have the legitimacy to teach Angron anything about violence? Why not Vulkan? Or, if you really wanted the lesson to be rough, Ferrus, Dorn, Sanguinius? What happened was that, "thick" as he is/seems, Angron immediately went for the matter's throat and questioned Russ' overeagerness in following the Emperor's bloody orders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Russ is a wolf. And a fighter. If he has the oppurtunity for a good fight, he will take it. No matter who it is against/ The Emperor is his alpha and the alpha must be obeyed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Verily. But the point remains that he just produced a huge amount of saliva and made for the Thousand Sons' throat as soon as the orders from his Alpha were completely changed. It's the difference between arrest and killing that should've made Russ dial "Terra" to confirm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 True enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I don't even think the Emperor ordered Russ to deal with Angron, I think Russ took it upon himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Thank the heavens he didn't call Valdor to tell him what a great idea he'd just had, then. =) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Agreed, High Marshal, but there are jobs for which a wolf's bad traits outweight the bad - tragically. Of course, Valdor also advocated the Thousand Son's decimation, but Russ got his orders from the Emperor...couldn't he have asked? Actually, I kind of get that he hasn't, it's just that he really likes the idea and gets a +3 bonus to insufferable self-righteousness. Like a well trained wolf, he smelled enough blood in the air that he just bolted for the throat once the leash was loose. Overeager violence is very much a wild animal's trait. @WoT: But did Russ really have the legitimacy to teach Angron anything about violence? Why not Vulkan? Or, if you really wanted the lesson to be rough, Ferrus, Dorn, Sanguinius? What happened was that, "thick" as he is/seems, Angron immediately went for the matter's throat and questioned Russ' overeagerness in following the Emperor's bloody orders. I think he could have asked, but Horus mentioned to him the Emperor changed his mind when he gave him the new orders. This creates a dilemma: When you receive an order from the Warmaster to whom loyalty was considered de facto loyalty to the Emperor, do you ask the Emperor again? I think here is where the personal issues came into play and while Russ did what he was ordered to do, he could have asked. But still, but when Horus was considered loyal, this may have been skipped many times due to his position and rank. Now, in Angron's case, the guy was almost insane. Maybe due to the Butcher's Nails along with his character he didn't even learn from a death situation Russ brought on him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 It took Lorgar giving Angron a verbal beating for him to consider he might've lost the encounter with Russ, and even then I think he quickly changed the matter or ignored it. He's like a chainaxe, that one. Just roar and chop and never stop. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Russ had no reason to question Horus when he changed his orders, after all Horus was Warmaster, the Emperor's proxy and first among equals. As for the Night of the Wolf, Russ took it upon himself to teach Angron a lesson. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 It took Lorgar giving Angron a verbal beating for him to consider he might've lost the encounter with Russ, and even then I think he quickly changed the matter or ignored it. He's like a chainaxe, that one. Just roar and chop and never stop. Russ won the verbal and moral argument with Angron but not by much. Angron was able to hold his own in their argument and made some good points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 It took Lorgar giving Angron a verbal beating for him to consider he might've lost the encounter with Russ, and even then I think he quickly changed the matter or ignored it. He's like a chainaxe, that one. Just roar and chop and never stop. Pretty accurate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 He's like a chainaxe, that one. Just roar and chop and never stop.This sounds like it could make a good song. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3420911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Russ just wishes he was angron. If the red angel had been able to have the nails removed the XII would have been the executioners and the most loyal to the big e. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3421120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Russ just wishes he was angron. If the red angel had been able to have the nails removed the XII would have been the executioners and the most loyal to the big e. I can't agree with this one, since it's a mere speculation. Angron went forward to implanting the Butcher's Nails to his legion, thus I think that means he doesn't really want to get rid of them, as he goes on to promote their use even when ordered to do otherwise. Next thing is, I think he cares more about bloodshed in itself and not it's purpose or it's limit as we can see when he becomes a Daemon Prince of Khorne. As far as Russ wishing to be Angron, Russ is devoted to the soul of the Imperium (which I can't say about Angron, even pre Heresy) and his attitude indicates a man of himself for me, not a copycat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3421290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Russ does not wish he was Angron. Russ is loyal to the Emperor, that is all we know. We do not really get a good book explaining why (Prospero Burns was heinous) but from Betrayer we know he obviously felt compelled by his own sense/desires to confront Angron. Angron implemented the Nails in the Legion as a means it seems (from Butchers Nails) to be make his Legion more malleable to his style of desired warfare. The Legion accepted this as a means of relating with their Primarch, despite the negative consequences. Angron was never loyal. Never devoted to the Imperium, or its ideals, as the Night of the Wolf shows us. Angron at his most lucid would seem to desire nothing more then freedom (Lord of the Red Sands), or liberty in the truest purest sense. The fact of the matter is, that is NOT what the Emperor (or by extension the Wolves) are all about, as Angron quite clearly expressed. The Imperium does not want freedom, or liberty, it wants dominance, control, and efficiency. When the Night Haunter and his results on Nostramo are lauded one must question the morals of even the 30K Imperium. Angron sees this, he calls it how it is, and in the end he fights because its all he has after the Emperor took away his former life, and we see in Vulkan Lives that even a Primarch has emotions, has a psyche that can be damaged. In the end, Angron joins Horus for a chance to avenge his fallen brothers and sisters, he does not care who sits upon the throne (again, from Betrayer) but he does hate the Emperor. He is forced to become a Daemon Prince, until we see otherwise it certainly did not appear to be a choice, compared to Fulgrim's ascension. ----------------- As for Scars, majorly short for that cost, I was a bit shocked. Decent enough however as I do enjoy the author's other works, Wrath of Iron being one of my favorites. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3421387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Guys, the whole "Russ wishes he was Angron" was a joke, I think. Just calm down guys. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3421394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I got the same reaction that I always get when I say that :P but no one can compare to my damaged goods of a father :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/8/#findComment-3421408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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