Scars

[b1soul]

Russ took it upon himself to teach Angron a lesson, he did but Angron was to stubborn and bull headed to realise what Russ was trying to get at.

Angron made some very good points about the nature of the Imperium and the Emperor's desire to dominate/enslave everything. You could argue that these lessons, taught by a gladiator who had fought for his freedom, were completely lost on Russ, the Emperor's lapdog. 

 

A lesson that wasn't lost on Russ: you don't engage Angron in a duel without getting your arse whooped

[Emperor's Furor]

I dunno, it's possible Russ was deliberately holding back so that he could make the point that Angron inevitably goes so far out of control he has no one around to support him and that his own legion is so far out of control none of them realise he's in trouble.

 

Angron doesn't realise the true problem, yes the Emperor desires to control everything but there's a good reason for it, if humanity is to survive in that galaxy then they need to pool their resources because everything else wants to kill them. Angron thinks you can let everyone do what they want and they'll be fine, that's simply not true in 40k. 

[Scribe]

There are zero grounds for claiming Russ held back. He held his LEGION back, but it was Russ who engaged first.

 

Angron also likely does not think you can let everyone do what they want, what he states (accurately) is that the Imperium is slavery, and that Russ is only 'free' by virtue of his choice to submit to the Emperor's will.

 

EDIT: I highly doubt Angron, who claims to have died when the Emperor forced him away from his brothers and sisters, cared for humanity as a wider entity.

[GhostMalone]

I believe that 30k had more hope than 40k and on the note of 40k it's not really as grim dark anymore.

 

Angron realised that his sons were slaves as was he, the only time in angrons life were he was truly free was in the midst of a real battle and he wanted his sons to feel that same freedom. It wasn't about rebelling or anything he just did not care for humanity he knew he was a tool and whoever offered him the chance for freedom through blood had his allegiance

[Conn Eremon]

The point of whether or not Russ held back only matters if who the better fighter is matters. And it shouldn't based off of a single fight. A Primarch beating or losing to another Primarch doesn't mean anything. They are all near equals and such fights by and large came down to circumstance. If Russ and Angron fought again, later or before, the outcome of that fight would not depend upon the one we have seen. And losing doesn't belittle a Primarch at all. Even if Russ lost the duel, he's still the guy who beat Magnus. Which doesn't belittle Magnus, because he was in a very tormented, hesitant state even after his fateful decision to defend himself and his sons. The Lion being able to whittle away at Curze doesn't belittle Dorn, who got sucker punched by Curze. It's a my dad can beat up your dad mentality taken to a sad level. If this was an unnecessary rant, sorry. Sometimes I just gotta rant.

[Emperor's Furor]

I wasn't definitively saying Russ held back, I was only suggesting it was a possibility to help him prove his point, of course he possibly didn't hold back.

[Wade Garrett]

Being a duelist melee murder machine is kind of Angron's thing, though, and it isn't as if he has a whole lot going for him if Russ/Lion/Dorn/whoever can whip him one on one. "Angron's occupation is gone" and all that.

[Conn Eremon]

Angron is a duelist melee murder machine. But that does not mean he can not lose in a duel. If Russ, the Lion, Dorn or whoever manage to beat him, it doesn't mean Angron has lost what makes him unique. It just means he has lost a fight. It happens. It should happen. One's strength means nothing when accompanying a perfect record. That's boring and pointless. Like Superman if all his foes were normal schmucks.

[GhostMalone]

Mass fire would sunder him, angron in your face scary angron charging towards you still scary angron surrounded by heavy bolsters firing in unison at him not as scary

[depthcharge12]

Mass fire would sunder him, angron in your face scary angron charging towards you still scary angron surrounded by heavy bolsters firing in unison at him not as scary

 

Well according to galaxy in flames...heavy bolters coming in like rain only serve to piss him off further...

 

Tarvitz had the good tactical French advance in full gear when angron popped out :P

[Kol Saresk]

Well IIRC, it was the World Eaters who were doing the massed fire while charging at him like it was Super Smash Bros. melee.

[GhostMalone]

:cuss dads pissed off quick fire before he grounds us!!

[Greyall]

Angron, Fulgrim and Sanguinius seem to be exceptions of a kind when talking fighting prowess. Whereas usually Primarchs are treated as different but more or less equally competent at face-burying, Fulgrim is constantly mentioned as the most proficient in swordsmanship, Sanguinius as the ultimate combatant and Angron as the unstoppable force among his brothers. Of course they'll lose and get hurt - though, interestingly, Angron's mythos on this matter remains intact. He's done more damage to himself than all enemies mentioned combined.

 

Horus gets a bit of this, too, but it's more of a status thing. By now, though, he should be sufficiently infused with warp favours that he can dual-wield Baneblades.

 

In time...

 

Jonson: I'd say the Lion become a force to be reckoned with in name, although his future plot might not place him before Greater Daemons and Primarchs, again.

 

Lorgar: Unless they want to return him to his dark days, will be massively dangerous in the future, Betrayer's gunship-dropping was just a taste.

 

Perturabo: He'll shine brighter, methinks, guy's the people's champion after Angel Exterminatus.

 

Dorn: He has yet to land a punch on a traitor, to my memory, and most of his fighting accounts are defeats, especially against Curze. Rogal is sure to get his crowning moment of right hooks.

 

Angron: Interestingly, the closer we've seen him to a great fight was with Guilliman, and although Angron got the upper hand, Papa Blue was at a disadvantage so he got the moral victory. We know he beat Russ but that's past. The thing is, no one seems to be complaining, which leaves me to wonder if Black Library won't try to pull a Badass in Theory (Mostly) on Angron. Having Marines turn tail and run from him is a good start. I'm up for that if it's well done, much as I'd like to see him unleash all hell on a brother.

 

Sanguinius: The only one who comes close to Angron in reputation, since Fulgrim's swordsmanship is almost treated as non-lethal in-universe and each brutal beating the Phoenician's traitor brothers lay on him get so many cheers from readers he's little more than a schemer with weird bedroom habits both inside and outside the 4th wall. The Angel's first appearance on Signus didn't go so well, but he ended up waking from a coma and nailing two Greater Daemons in less time than I take to feed my hamster - bonus points since one of said Daemons pretty much just melted and died with less dignity than most Eldar couples at the time of their fall.

 

Ending on topic. Jaghatai Khan is sure to be made properly awesome in the next books; trope-wise, he's the always-serious badass who struggles to keep his itchy swordhand down, so I'd be very surprised if at some point he doesn't cut a Daemon Prince in half. And then another ten. There's just too much momentum building on the Khan for him not to deliver. For starters, he's never been mocked and is even rarely mentioned by his brothers, and you can from those scarce moments that it's out of respect.

[Entei]

I think Russ is very close to what Angron would have been if he never would have been a slave. The argumentative, rebellious and savage, but still respected leader.

And about powerlevels: It seems like it's possible that nearly any of the primarchs could defeat anyone of his brothers(with a few exceptions ofc, I don't think Alpharius could ever beat Angron in fair combat...) Even though it seems improbable. But when the traitors start becoming daemonprinces I guess it's nearly impossible.

[High MarshalGR]

Angron is a duelist melee murder machine. But that does not mean he can not lose in a duel. If Russ, the Lion, Dorn or whoever manage to beat him, it doesn't mean Angron has lost what makes him unique. It just means he has lost a fight. It happens. It should happen. One's strength means nothing when accompanying a perfect record. That's boring and pointless. Like Superman if all his foes were normal schmucks.

 

He lost the war against Russ. He won the duel, lost the war and was totally blind to see what Russ did. Other than that, I won't go into the morals of the Imperium. The reason is, it has it's pros and cons. Some choose to see the one, some choose to see the other, some see it's grey shades. It's not perfect, it's a system which goes from human beings to human beings and is a nice discussion but for another thread. This was more extensively analysed in Horus Rising me thinks.

 

So, I'll leave that aside for now.

 

@Greyall: Interesting thing is, the current alive ones are the Lion, Perturabo (the master of being underestimated), Lorgar, Angron and maybe Dorn. It will be interesting to see the Lion awaken from his slumber now that he is far more experienced in dealing with Chaos entities. He could have even formed formidable plans in all those milennia.

Papa Blue got the moral victory because he was handicapped. Not a great fighter in my opinion, but still Angron revealed his true self and fought him 2 vs 1. That throws his honor in the garbage, so let's move on.

Sanguinius... He indeed was a balanced fighter of terrifying proportions, let's not forget what happens when the Angel got angry. A really nice figure from many points of view.

Perturabo is just... Perturabo. From what I can gather, he was usually underestimated, his victories didn't really got the glory they deserved, garrison duty along with constant sieges wore him thin and Horus continued to play with him to make him easily swept towards Chaos.

 

Also, another nice reference, maybe Big E shouldn't have teleported Angron from his next day tomb. I know this is what a father is supposed to do, help his son survive and then let him find his own reason to live the next day, but reasoning wasn't Angrons strongest point.

 

EDIT: 

@Entei: Russ and Angron were pretty different me thinks. Their character was different, not only their upraising. The one was raised by wolves, the other by humans who put him to fight. They had differences in moral views, reasoning skills, adaptability, honor. They had common points, but they had their differences as well as all Primarchs. Russ wasn't a savage for me. He was kinda brutal, but not what I would call savage. He had a purpose, a dream for what he did. Angron needed no purpose, only something to offer him the chance of bloodshed (don't forget Khorne). Also, Russ knew who and when to obey. He wasn't just a smart prick ignoring everyone and doing his sh1t.

[Greyall]

Perturabo is massively dangerous. His "ability" to learn things at lightspeed and then putting them in practice even faster makes him a superior technical fighter.

 

In Angron's defense, I don't recall him ever linking honour to one-on-one fights. Or mentioning honour much at all, actually. You'll want Sanguinius for those matters. Angron's about killing, period, but if it helps him redeem, he'll charge anything from a brother in disadvantage to a Titan, one thousand Marines/any living being, three thousand Marines/any living being or, if nothing else is in front, the ground itself.

 

But back on the Khan: there's mention of an Ork Warboss being killed by him in Brotherhood of the Storm, anyone care to spoiler if Jaghatai curbstomps the green guy or if it's pretty well-fought?

[b1soul]

I dunno, it's possible Russ was deliberately holding back

 

 

Perhaps Angron was holding back since y'know, Angron didn't actually kill Russ or even try to kill Russ as the "Great Wolf" crawled away

 

I'm pretty sure that Angron would be able to kill the crawling Russ before Russ' marines could bring Angron down with bolter fire. Primarchs are a blur to a marine who is a blur to a guardsman.

[Greyall]

Certainly, I think Russ pretty much accepts that his life is on Angron's hands. And still the Wolf's won, it was his plan all along, even if I don't think a brawler like him would hold back on a fight with the most dangerous Primarch.

[Emperor's Furor]

Well two points, The Khan is considered the best swordsman, even more so than Fulgrim. I can't remember the exact quote but the white scar captain says the orc warboss who died, went tragically or something i.e Khan took him apart in seconds.

 

Dorn thinks he could beat every Primarch he says as much in the lightning tower, the only thing he fears is the possible truths Curze told him.

[Entei]

@Entei: Russ and Angron were pretty different me thinks. Their character was different, not only their upraising. The one was raised by wolves, the other by humans who put him to fight. They had differences in moral views, reasoning skills, adaptability, honor. They had common points, but they had their differences as well as all Primarchs. Russ wasn't a savage for me. He was kinda brutal, but not what I would call savage. He had a purpose, a dream for what he did. Angron needed no purpose, only something to offer him the chance of bloodshed (don't forget Khorne). Also, Russ knew who and when to obey. He wasn't just a smart prick ignoring everyone and doing his sh1t.

 

Yea but I said if Angron didn't have the butcher's nails he might have been pretty similar to Russ. To be honest I don't think Angron would have been the same character at all without the nails, something that his brothers, particularly Lorgar, acknowledges(he sees glimpses of nobility in Angron just for a few moments in The Butcher's Nails if I'm not mistaken). Russ kinda seems like a sane, more lighthearted version of Angron to me. But I might be wrong.

 

And by savage I meant savage in combat, compared to the other primarchs such as Guilliman or the Lion, but you are right that brutal might be a better word.

[Greyall]

@WoT: That's freaking awesome, I'm all for Jaghatai being a master swordsman. As for Dorn, I think he's being too confident, to be honest. He's supposed to be one of the biggest Primarchs and yet Curze completely mauled him, even if it was by surprise. No doubt he's a great technical fighter and has church bells for knuckles, but nothing until now suggests he could take on the heaviest hitters among the Primarchs. Surprise me, Black Library.

 

@Entei: It's hard to imagine Angron without his tragic traits and story. He's smart and deep, yes, he shows that much against Russ, but all Primarchs are. But then ALL his talks are either about killing, the nails or the Emperor's betrayal. Guilliman mocks or scorns him, but then Guilliman doesn't soil himself when he's not angry. And you know Angron's not looking for pity since that probably ranks first in things that make him eat your shoulder. What he's trying to stress is how impossibly a-holic it is for seventeen demigods who can build floating fortresses or turn cesspits into model worlds to completely spit on their brother's condition (forget joining minds to try and remove the darn things). It's not as if Angron is clingy or anything, the guy can take care of himself, he'd just like not to be treated as a [deliberate] madman each time he contacts one of his brothers.

 

Little wonder he and Perturabo are said to have interesting conversations, Perturabo knows what being misunderstood and looked down means (it also means you get to land uppercuts when you finally snap, incidentaly). Ironically, Angron's defeat at the hands of Russ (Russ' men) and not by the Ultramarines makes perfect sense, since Guilliman's strategists play to an army's tactics, but Russ not only knows rage, he also learned how Angron and the World Eaters connect (they don't), so he played to an army's collective mind.

[Emperor's Furor]

Was it Perturabo and Angron who walk out of the room after Lorgar threatens Daemon Fulgrim, and Angron is chatting away while Perturabo just has a wry grin on his face?

[Greyall]

Yep =) Which is how all their conversations are said to go. Well, I'd be grinning too if I'd just seen Lorgar shatter Fulgrim's wntire body.

[Emperor's Furor]

I'd love to see that relationship more, I picture it as fairly odd and comical.

[Týr]

I would like to adress the view that some Legions (the Wolves and Scars) are savages.

 

No Legion is savage nor is any primarch. A primarch is a primarch and an Astartes is an Astartes. I belive Prospero Burns was pretty clear in pointing out the Wolves wasn't savage in any way. There are two things that lead people to belive they can term a Legion to be savage.

The first thing is their reputation. As Ogvai tells Hawser in Prospero Burns all Legions have reputations. These reputations are what people wrongly interpret as sterotypical/cliché fluff traits of Legions. e.g. Dorns Legion being "siege masters", "Last Stand experts" and "Stubborn and disiplined". In the Wolves case it's that they are "savages", "wild" and "ruthless".

All these things are only reputations that a Legion projects towards outsiders. Every Legion is so much more than what the others think of them and they all have the odd exception that dosen't fit the sterotypical description of his Legion. 

A reputation of a Legion is nothing more than a reputation. It's not truth Perhaps it has some fraction of the truth but never the whole story. As Ogvai tells Hawser. If the wolves were as savage and wild as their reputations tells they are, then they would all be long gone and dead.

 

The second thing is the culture the Legions adopt from a certain homeworld. A Legion adopts many customs from their Primarch and the world he is found on. When a Legion like the Wolves and Scars adopt their culture it appear to outsiders they aer savage because that's how people would interpret the culture of their worlds. 

Because they grow a beard, talk funny, have certain philosophical views dosen't mean they are any less Astartes. They are still killing machines with strength and intellect beyond any mortal. Again it's only superficial. The real Legion is what is underneath reputation and culture. 

Often what makes Legions different are much more subtle and deeper than just "these guys are good at building stuff while these guys are good with an axe". 

 

So my point is don't fall into the trap of categorising Legions by their sterotypical fluff definitions as this say's nothing about the Legion. It will not get you any far.