Scars Episode XI Updated 16/10 (Spoilers)

[lilMAC25]

Personally I hope the Khan smacks him stupid. All we seem to see is Loyalist Primarchs getting theirs handed to them. Even when the traitors do lose, there's a plus point to it somewhere down the line (The Lion carved Curze apart like a prize steak and see just how he returned to form in Unrememberd Empire)

 

 

In some of those battles though, the Traitor Primarchs already have boosted abilities due to Chaos and the Loyalists hold back because they aren't willing to kill their brothers (yet).

[Emperor's Furor]

Yeah Vulkan held back during duels until Curze finally peed him off enough and knocked him silly.

[Vesper]

 

Personally I hope the Khan smacks him stupid. All we seem to see is Loyalist Primarchs getting theirs handed to them. Even when the traitors do lose, there's a plus point to it somewhere down the line (The Lion carved Curze apart like a prize steak and see just how he returned to form in Unrememberd Empire)

 

 

In some of those battles though, the Traitor Primarchs already have boosted abilities due to Chaos and the Loyalists hold back because they aren't willing to kill their brothers (yet).

 

Well, actually no. By the time we're at, the traitors primarchs aren't strengthened by Chaos yet (safe for maybe Lorgar, but he's a special case). Speak of Daemon Angron, and now you have a Chaos primarch. Speak of Daemon Fulgrim, and that's another one. But those haven't crossed swords with anyone yet. I'd add that Tzeentch might even have cut the warp juice out of Magnus, who is said to be able to blast the whole Space Wolves fleet into oblivion from the other side of the Galaxy.

Then, I highly doubt Russ held back against Magnus, or Guilliman against Lorgar/Angron, or Corax against Lorgar.

So your statement falls a bit flat, because it's far too general and fails to get the spirit behind each of those fights.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I've read the first part of Thousand Sons, and I noticed the remark about Magnus threatening the Wolf Lord that was visiting him to compel him to rejoin the war campaign with Russ instead of dallying on the planet with mysterious non warped humans. The part where Magnus basically said he could have used his powers to destroy the wolf lord's warship anytime he wanted the moment it left the warp.

 

I got the impression that the remark was hyperbole though, and Magnus was just being annoyed and hoping that the wolf lord would pee in his pants in face of a primarch's might, especially one whose specialization is psykery. Whether he can really obliterate a warship in space from afar is really debateable and personally I don't think so. Otherwise he would never need to wear armour and use weapons at all. Not to mention being overpowered for story purposes and would put him practically the level of a chaos god. Even the Emperor can't blast whole fleets from afar, although as I understand it, in First Heretic he did force the whole Word Bearers Legion of approximately 100,000 to kneel with his powers alone.

 

As far as primarch's fights go, seems like the loyalists primarchs are on the losing end. Fulgrim beheads Ferrus. Corax whooped Lorgar's butt but was in turn, smacked by Kurze. Kurze on the other hand, gets smacked by the Lion, as well as a tortured Vulkan, Lorgar and Robuite seemed bout equal, but then Angron comes around and smacks an exhausted Robuite with two to one odds, Kurze smacks Rogal unarmed, Russ smashed Magnus (???) but was previously smacked by Angron in Night of the Wolf.....

 

Yep, its a strange loop of scissors paper stone we're having here. Or in the words of Sheldon Cooper, Rock Scissors Lizard Paper Spock.

 

Primarch fights we have yet to see:

 

Horus himself

Mortarion

Khan

Alpharius

Omegon

Sanguinus (we still haven't seen him fight a primarch although he CAN bring down a bloodhthirster by himself)

Perturbo (haven't read Angel Exterminatus, but as I understand it, Fulgrim tried to backstab him but didn't actually fight the Iron Lord)

 

I'm intrigued of a fight between the lightning doctrine of Khan's legion agains the infantry focused Mortarion though. Normally I say speed wins but Mortarion is probably the sanest and most stable of the traitor primarchs in terms of minds and tactics. I would like to see Mortarion in his terminator armour and Manreaper scythe try to catch Khan zipping around in a bike though. I would say in a straight fight, Mortarion would win, but somehow I doubt the Khan would handicap himself fighting an opponent who is clearly better on foot then the Khan is.

 

Not to say Khan can't carry himself on foot, but based on preferred methods of war, I believe Mortarion has an advantage. Legion vs Legion, as in every case of astartes vs astartes, is probably equal. Space Wolves won over the Thousands Sons, but the Wolves were supported by Sisters of Silence and Custodes so wasn't quite a fair fight, at least until the Thousands Sons started warping themselves and their sorcery went haywire.

[Conn Eremon]

You know, Magnus is a Primarch, a leader of a Legion. He has a fleet. Unless he actually said that he would use his mind powers to bzzzap the Space Wolves out of the void, why would we assume that's what he meant?

[Wade Garrett]

I don't have my copy of A Thousand Sons, but I am almost

certain there's a bit where Ahriman hears Magnus threaten to blow up the Wolves's ship and thinks "He's can't really do that, but the Wolves don't know."

 

Also, Curze never "whupped" Corax. He blocked an attack aimed at Lorgar, and then the Raven chose to aid his sons in cutting their way free of the killing field instead of duelling with Night Haunter.

 

It's kind of the opposite of the Night of the Wolf.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Good point, except I doubt he was implying use of his more "mundane" abilities like simply having the Thousand Sons fleet destroy the wolf vessel,

[Greyall]

@Wade: Aye, Curze didn't get to even fight with Corax, but the Raven's 'fear' is heavily shown, as is his unwillingness in fighting Konrad. Of course, one of his lighting claws was destroyed and his face had been turned into pudding, but the point is made that Curze is one vicious monster who you do not want to mess with.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, according to Curze, the Raven left the fight so he could punch a hole in the Night Lords' lines so the Raven Guard could try to escape.

[Greyall]

Is that stated in First Heretic? Or is it an afterthought?

 

Not saying it isn't true, it'd be quite impossible for Corax to be truly afraid, but I thought it was patent how dreadful Curze's presence is. He seems absolutely delighted by the prospect of killing Corax while the Raven seemed absolutely not-up-for-it, as much by opportunity and the clear disadvantage he was in as by Curze's reputation. Whatever the causes, the book is clear in showing you how "effed-up" Corax situation would have been if he'd stayed and fought.

[Kol Saresk]

On the ground, Curze shook himself free of Lorgar. 'Sevatar,' he spoke into the vox. 'The Raven comes to you, to free his men.'

 

Battle sounds. Bolter fire. The roar of tank engines. 'We will deal with him lord.'

 

'See that you do.'

 

The First Heretic, page 458

[Emperor's Furor]

Doesn't Corax think back on the fight in a book saying he could of killed both Curze and Lorgar but it would of cost him his life and that of his sons?

[Kasper_Hawser]

OK, so Kurze didn't whoop Corax ass, but somehow the Lord of Fear had a profound effect on the Raven Lord to the point where Corax actually felt fear overide his righteous anger at the traitors and retreated. Later in Deliverance Lost, Corax spent some time alone figuring out WHY he felt fear towards Kurze and speculated that it was because Corax could very well had been Kurze if the situation had been reversed. Both were born in darkness but whereas Corax was found and raised by humans, Kurze had nobody.

 

But going back to the moment of First Heretic, the way I read it was that Kurze was seemingly sparing very little effort to not only block Corax lightning claw with his own, but actually holding the Raven Lord from going anywhere. All the while chatting with Lorgar for being weak. From there it is debateable what was going through Corax mind but the next thing I read is that Corax had activated his jump pack to force Kurze to let him go. Kurze then gives a heads up to Sevatar to watch our for Corax returning to the Raven Guard lines.

 

I could be wrong, been awhile since I read Deliverance Lost and First Heretic. But Kurze seems to be the only one to actually bring fear to another primarch's heart, basically to Rogal Dorn and Corax. I haven't read Unremembered Empire, but it looks like even two Primarchs Robuite and Lion have a hard time tracking and fighting Kurze.

[Emperor's Furor]

Not because they are afraid of him though, they are "afraid" of the truths behind him. Rogal feared what he said about the future being true, Corax "feared" what he could of become if things had been different.

[Greyall]

@WoT: I'm thinking he meant that it would have cost him his life due to the delay it would cause, right?

 

Maybe this is a case of interpretation, it's been a while since I read 'Heretic', but I do remember that moment having a lot of tension - the closest to Primarch fear, really. But you make a great point, Kol, which is further supported by Corax being on the cool-headed side, even at Istvaan V.

[Kol Saresk]

OK, so Kurze didn't whoop Corax ass, but somehow the Lord of Fear had a profound effect on the Raven Lord to the point where Corax actually felt fear overide his righteous anger at the traitors and retreated. Later in Deliverance Lost, Corax spent some time alone figuring out WHY he felt fear towards Kurze and speculated that it was because Corax could very well had been Kurze if the situation had been reversed. Both were born in darkness but whereas Corax was found and raised by humans, Kurze had nobody.

 

But going back to the moment of First Heretic, the way I read it was that Kurze was seemingly sparing very little effort to not only block Corax lightning claw with his own, but actually holding the Raven Lord from going anywhere. All the while chatting with Lorgar for being weak. From there it is debateable what was going through Corax mind but the next thing I read is that Corax had activated his jump pack to force Kurze to let him go. Kurze then gives a heads up to Sevatar to watch our for Corax returning to the Raven Guard lines.

 

I could be wrong, been awhile since I read Deliverance Lost and First Heretic. But Kurze seems to be the only one to actually bring fear to another primarch's heart, basically to Rogal Dorn and Corax. I haven't read Unremembered Empire, but it looks like even two Primarchs Robuite and Lion have a hard time tracking and fighting Kurze.

Doesn't Corax think back on the fight in a book saying he could of killed both Curze and Lorgar but it would of cost him his life and that of his sons?

And that is why Corax retreated. It wasn't out of some godly fear of Curze, it was the act of Curze saving Lorgar from a literal killing blow reminded Corax that his own sons were facing their own killing blow. Curze is a perfect example of for every plus, there is a negative. He has visions that can help him in a fight. Meanwhile he is totally reliant on those visions and if something unforeseen happens, he gets bled. He jumps into a fight and Corax runs away. Corax running away allows the Raven Guard to escape the Urgall Depression, which in turn leads to the Raven's Flight. Curze is a consummate killer. But he is not a fighter as even Astartes are able to wound him in close combat.

[Emperor's Furor]

@WoT: I'm thinking he meant that it would have cost him his life due to the delay it would cause, right?

 

Maybe this is a case of interpretation, it's been a while since I read 'Heretic', but I do remember that moment having a lot of tension - the closest to Primarch fear, really. But you make a great point, Kol, which is further supported by Corax being on the cool-headed side, even at Istvaan V.

Yeah I believe he was referring to the delay, if he'd stuck around to fight them both then as time passed, more of his sons would of died and he would of been surrounded and killed.

[Greyall]

But man, did he really believe he would've been able to kill both Primarchs? I know Corax was a monster and boasting is the most common thing to come out of a Primarch's mouth, but damn...

[Kol Saresk]

 

But man, did he really believe he would've been able to kill both Primarchs? I know Corax was a monster and boasting is the most common thing to come out of a Primarch's mouth, but damn...

well, he'd already did a pretty decent job of taking Lorgar out of the fight. So all he had to do was beat Curze and then finish off Lorgar. So it is possible, especially with no fear of it turning into a 2vs1.

[Greyall]

Still, a 2vs1 at Primarch levels of skill is pretty hard. But yeah, Corax has by now been shown as a killing machine who simply was screwed up right at the start of the game. Sort of like Ferrus.

[calgar101]

Corax does believe he could have taken both Lorgar and Curze on and killed them both but only at the cost of his own life. I never got that Corax feared Curze, he feared how he could have easily become like his brother. Corax is actually quite a successful Primarch and one that was underrated I believe until his books.

[Emperor's Furor]

Think he said in the Raven's Flight he'd have no chance against Angron, but Russ or Sanguinius might.

[Greyall]

Aye, we've pointed this out in another thread. Amusingly, Angron, Sanguinius and Horus seem to be impervious to the "In a fight, context prevails" rule.

[Emperor's Furor]

Well Dorn theorized he was better than Horus I believe in the Lightning Tower. I could be wrong though as it was when he was reflecting on what was worrying him about the current situation.

[Greyall]

Did he mean in combat or as a general?