Cactus Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Your first option is disappointing in that the drop site massacre is so well established the incongruity really should have been spotted, or not written at all. The second reinforces the unfortunate impression I have (from Fulgrim and his story in The Primarchs) of Ferrus as a hot-headed fool. Ferrus' life comes across (to me) as one big 'he lost his head' joke. I still prefer the 'bang on the head and amnesia' theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Your first option is disappointing in that the drop site massacre is so well established the incongruity really should have been spotted, or not written at all. The second reinforces the unfortunate impression I have (from Fulgrim and his story in The Primarchs) of Ferrus as a hot-headed fool. Ferrus' life comes across (to me) as one big 'he lost his head' joke. I still prefer the 'bang on the head and amnesia' theory. Yeah, Fulgrim & The Primarchs basically portrayed the Gorgon as : 'Ferrus Mad! Ferrus Smash!' - which really does the character a disservice, and is completely different from how Massacre portrays him, which I much prefer. To be honest his best depiction, albeit short is probably in The First Heretic, although I'm not sure about the description of him tiring in his fight with Fulgrim - after all, Ferrus has been wielding Forgebreaker for almost 2 centuries, and in the fight he was using Fireblade, whilst Fulgrim - the swordsman - is using the colossaly heavy Forgebreaker, so I'd think Ferrus would be the less likely of the 2 to tire first. Then again, I'm biased :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castrmen Orth Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 i rather think that there may be more to ferrus story yet the emperors children guy who was beheaded by fulgrim has been restored to life, and it seems to make fulgrim angry when he is slower than he was or not as perfect as he was, almost as if he is a prototype or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 i rather think that there may be more to ferrus story yet the emperors children guy who was beheaded by fulgrim has been restored to life, and it seems to make fulgrim angry when he is slower than he was or not as perfect as he was, almost as if he is a prototype or something Ferrus Manus's polised skull is in the Lupercal's Court. I doubt there's any coming back from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uprising Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 i rather think that there may be more to ferrus story yet the emperors children guy who was beheaded by fulgrim has been restored to life, and it seems to make fulgrim angry when he is slower than he was or not as perfect as he was, almost as if he is a prototype or something Ferrus Manus's polised skull is in the Lupercal's Court. I doubt there's any coming back from that. Anything is possible with chaos....and bad writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Even though I think this subject is skewed and pointless (all primarchs have dull and reduntant facets, they are supposed to have flaws - not be perfect) I'll chip in on why Ferrus Manus is actually awesome. Ferrus Manus is the no bull:cuss, no excuses, no hypocrisy Primarch. His style of warfare is relentless and high intensity, without the savage butchery some display. No elaborate ruses, no mercy, no respite once the gloves are off. To pit yourself against the Primarch of the X legion is to get caught inbetween an immovable object and the unstoppable force. His currency is honesty, even if you don't like it. He is a true brother to those he loves, and those he doesn't still have his grudging respect. He is self conscious of his weaknesses and always strives to better himself and his legion, in his own harsh way. He is loyal to a fault, he puts most of the Primarchs to shame in that department. To sly is honour is to beacon the wrath of the Gorgon. Of all the Primarchs, he best understand is place in the Emperor's plans. He does not question them, only furthers them to the best of his abilities. He understands the value of both creation and destruction - That is why he is dedicate to his craft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Now that, sir, is a wonderful thought. And accurate, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I wish I would stop fat fingering on my phone and not sound like an illiterate buffoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Really? Ferrus's loyalty puts most Primarchs to shame? How exactly is he more loyal than Rogal Dorn? Than Sanguinus? Than Guilliman, Vulkan, or the Khan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 @Wade- despite being close to a few of his brothers who turned traitor (Horus and Fulgrim), he didn't allow his brotherhood get in the way of his duty. None of the other primarchs you named had the such a temptation. It's also because of his prior close association to the traitors that Ferrus made such an aggressive attack on the traitors at istvaan, to show he was still loyal despite his prior associations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 @Wade- despite being close to a few of his brothers who turned traitor (Horus and Fulgrim), he didn't allow his brotherhood get in the way of his duty. Dorn, Sanguinus, and the Khan all had friends on the other side. It didn't slow them down at all on Terra. Not to mention that calling Fulgrim's attempt to swing Ferrus's loyalty "temptation" is giving it way more credit than it deserves. The Phoenician literally just landed on the X Legion flagship and yelled "HEY! LET'S GO KILL DAD!" because apparently his daemonsword ate the part of his brain that lets him tell Ferrus from Angron, the only Primarch that might have been convinced by that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Hyperbole time, again. Did you know that most means strong majority? The Khan Did not even bother applying the Edict of Nikaea and is at odds with his father's philosophy. Guilliman? Emperium Secondus? Mmmm. So that leaves, Dorn, defacto Champon due to his ass being on Terra at the time and Sanguinius who is just as loyal to his father. So that's 2 out of 17. Yeah, I think we are good on that statement Wade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Also, Fulgrim failed because he was full of himself and figured he would weigh more than the Emperor in the Balance. Ferrus never cared for politics or the title of Warmaster. He had no beef with big E. In fact, he was so Outraged at the idea that he stormed off after him and was ready to go on a rampage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castrmen Orth Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 the bit about the polished skull, where did that come from? seems strange that similar experiments are being carried out in the III legion, i feel there may be a tragic twist to come yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 the bit about the polished skull, where did that come from? seems strange that similar experiments are being carried out in the III legion, i feel there may be a tragic twist to come yet "Warmaster" Audio drama. If he doesn not stay dead, Who other than red shirts are dead in all of the Heresy at this point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castrmen Orth Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 dont get me wrong i think he is dead, but not staying down, sort of like tarik "tormageddon" i think he will be kept in some kind of hellish lifeless undeath by Mr fabius Bile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 He is a daemon now, for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Well, one point that suggests his Loyalty to the Big E was remarkable amongst the Primarchs was the fact that he was trusted enough by the Emperor to lead later discovered Primarchs and their Legions before Horus became Warmaster. And even though he was a very obvious candidate for Warmaster, he didn't give two that Horus was promoted above him, even though most other Primarchs who were extremely unlikely to even be considered for the position where whining about it incessantly. I mean, Fulgrim even offered Ferrus another chance at joining the Traitors' side when the trap at Isstvan V was sprung - which the Gorgon must have known would save the lives of thousands of his Legionaries, and undoubtedly his own, and yet he effectively spat in Fulgrim's pasty little face - because he was fully prepared to sacrifice himself, and every one of his 113,000 Legionaries for the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Hyperbole time, again. Did you know that most means strong majority? The Khan Did not even bother applying the Edict of Nikaea and is at odds with his father's philosophy. Guilliman? Emperium Secondus? Mmmm. So that leaves, Dorn, defacto Champon due to his ass being on Terra at the time and Sanguinius who is just as loyal to his father. So that's 2 out of 17. Yeah, I think we are good on that statement Wade. The Khan defended Terra during the Siege, and when if you want to hold the Nikea Edict against him, HIS gene sons didn't immediately bust out Dark Age of Technology doohickeys both the Emperor and their Primarch had forbidden as soon as they were deprived of said Primarch. Glass houses, stones, avoid throwing. As far as Guilliman's actions, what exactly is treacherous about gearing up to fight on when you're cut off from everything else? Do you think if Ferrus had been trapped on Medusa by the Ruinstorm, he'd led his entire Legion to a pointless death in the Warp because "MAH LOYALTY"? And Ferrus as Warmaster-God Emperor on Earth, no. The Warmaster has to be a diplomat. He has to be a politician. He has to be somebody who can grease the wheels and keep lunatics like Angron and Curze, puffed up egos like Magnus and the Lion's, and fanatics like Lorgar and Mortarion inside the tent spitting out. Ferrus is as diplomatic as a beserk Reaver Battle Titan, making him Warmaster would have been a disaster. Look, I'm not saying he was the least loyal Primarch, I'm saying that trying to argue for which of the nine loyalists was the most loyal is like trying to argue which one was the most brave. Can't be done. Well, unless you're a drooling fanboy on the level of an Ultramarines player who sleeps with a copy of Codex Space Marines 5th edition under his pillow. But none of us are that silly, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 You know what, forget about it. Reading comprehension is hard. I never said he was THE MOST. I said he is has higher loyalties than most primarchs.This does not mean or imply in a post heresy setting. This means out of all 18 at the time. Who said he should be warmaster? IHF said he was a candidate, I personally don't think he would have taken it/received it in any case had Horus not been around. He did not want the job because he knew he wasn't it. He hates politics and the whole circle jerking. Also, it is not about what his legion did after his death either. So if that's the best rock you have for my glass house, look deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Who was given leadership of the retribution force? Who did Dorn trust to carry out the orders against Curze? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 The tricky part of Ferrus is how differently he's been portrayed in different sources. Fulgrim portrays him as a fuming, aggressive idiot frankly, which is pretty at odds with the cold, brutal strategist mentioned primarily in Massacre. When it comes down to it, Ferrus is stupidly loyal - it doesn't matter if what the Big E tells him to do is pointless, or should be ignored due to changing circumstances, he'll do what he's ordered to the letter, even if it kills him. So yeah, he's a great commander over other Primarchs and Legions for specific engagements, but, true - he'd make a pretty bad Warmaster - he'd just end up pissing off half the Primarchs without caring, and he'd inevitably try and put down anyone who didn't do as he ordered. As was his own admission, he's a warrior first and foremost - made to destroy, not manipulate the political intricacies of the Imperium. And yes, his Legion went more than a little crazy after his death, but that's because their loyalty was primarily to him, and it was structured in a manner that encouraged insularity and internal conflict to strengthen it as a military body. But his loyalty was only to the Emperor, as a tool of the father who created him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I don't consider Ferrus "redundant", not even mediocre as he feared he was; the guy was the love child of Leonidas and Tony Stark, not to mention one of the five in Guilliman's all-important bro list. I'll consent he was a man lacking in extremes, (and I'll disagree with above posters in that I believe Dorn takes the crown on machine-like obedience to orders over Ferrus) and it was that piston-like, binaric reliance and spartan mindset that marks him out as exceptional to me; sometimes you just need the no-BS assessment and solution, and Ferrus 'It is done.' Manus was that. In terms of achievements, if you need more than lists of bland, uncelebrated victories (but victories nonetheless) you need to look at his non-martial achievements, and Ferrus' technical prowess (Keys of Hel and all that) puts him far above the achievements of his brothers; Alpharius and Omegon accomplished feth all that we know of, and neither did Lorgar achieve much worth celebrating before the Heresy. I'm sure I'm missing some accomplishments and their absence, but Manus in no way is one of the first three or five primarchs closest to the crown of uselessness or redundancy (Lorgar is way up there, as are A&O in contribution to the Imperium before the heresy). For the sake of Your Daddy Sucks lists: -1 (contribution below what is expected 0): Lorgar -0.25: A&O (going by Guilliman, and I doubt the usefulness of everyone's browsing history to the IoM) 0: Khan/Mortarion/Vulkan's Organic Dairy Farm of the Far Future/Sanguinius(?)/Angron 1: Magnus, Ferrus, Horus (post Ullanor) 2:Guilliman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlight Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 as far as the great crusade goes, I would say that Lorgar was the most "redundant" of Primarchs. Weakest fighter, and wasted time preaching faith in his father, which meant that the ultramarines had to go and undo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 as far as the great crusade goes, I would say that Lorgar was the most "redundant" of Primarchs. Weakest fighter, and wasted time preaching faith in his father, which meant that the ultramarines had to go and undo.At least Lorgar's conquests could still pay tithes to the Imperium (unlike the bombed out butcher's yards Angron left in his wake) and his Legion never started a war with any of the others until Chaos took a hand (Russ and Angron on Ghenna, Russ and Magnus on Shrike). :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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