Ferrus Manus most redundant of Primarchs ?

[Hellios]

Not trying to take this thread off topic or into the realm of "X is totally stronger than Y, bro," but does anyone else recall - and I'm showing my age here, as this was many years before the Horus Heresy novels - that it was outright stated in an old codex/White Dwarf that in terms of brute physical strength it was actually Magnus and Russ, not Vulkan and Ferrus, who were the largest and strongest of the Primarchs? Again, not trying to start an argument, just curious to see if anyone else who has a memory better than mine can confirm or deny this.

 

Magnus, know as the red, and the cyclops. Cylops not only have one eye, but they are also a type of giant. Magnus was the largest of all the primarchs (a giant among giants), with Mortarion being the second tallest (although I imagine him being fairly skinny). With his psychic might Magnus is almost certainly the strongest. Without it... It is possible he didn't work out as much as the other primarchs (being a book kinda guy and all...), and so others beat him in terms of physical strength. Certainly others were more skilled in close combat.

 

Also, leav the lion alone. While he might have a host of problems an ego isn't one of them. As a strategist none of the other primarchs have a solid claim at being better than him. Some might be able to claim they are his equal. If you are refering to him believing he is the only one who can do things... That is to do with his mental state. He doesn't raise himself above others because he thinks he is better. He raises himself above others because he can't trust them. He has no choice but to rely on himself. He has to be better than the rest.

[Memento Of Prospero]

as far as the great crusade goes, I would say that Lorgar was the most "redundant" of Primarchs. Weakest fighter, and wasted time preaching faith in his father, which meant that the ultramarines had to go and undo.

At least Lorgar's conquests could still pay tithes to the Imperium (unlike the bombed out butcher's yards Angron left in his wake) and his Legion never started a war with any of the others until Chaos took a hand (Russ and Angron on Ghenna, Russ and Magnus on Shrike).

It's hard to act tough and pick fights with other legions when your Primarch would get his ass handed to him by Alpharius or Omegon

[Augustus]

Who was given leadership of the retribution force? Who did Dorn trust to carry out the orders against Curze?

You're right. Curze should have been given it.

No wait, Alpharius.

No wait, Perturabo.

No wait, Lorgar.

Vulkan? He probably thought he would have been chained down by compassion.

Corax? Maybe he thought Corax's modus operandi was sufficient for the task at hand.

So really...if you think about it. He didn't have too many options.

[Wade Garrett]

Is the thing about Ferrus being the leader on Isstvan V in

Massacre?

 

Because in "Fulgrim" and "The First Heretic" they never said who the overall loyalist commander was, or even if there was one, while in "The Outcast Dead" Dorn is trying to micromanage the whole thing from Terra. And being roundly ignored by Ferrus as he does.

[Augustus]

I think it was in the Outcast dead? Maybe Nemesis

 

It is in neither. I did find a reference to "Ferrus' Fleet"; but that is ambiguous.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I can't speak to Dorn giving Ferrus command, but both Vulkan and Corax seemed to accept his command of the situation despite the Iron Hands being the smallest contingent numbers-wise.

 

Which raises an interesting corollary.  Who commanded the Second Wave Legions?  They all arrived together, so it makes sense that they were traveling together.  Perturabo seems the best choice -- in terms of Legion designation, he has seniority (IVth, compared to VIIIth, XVIIth, and XXth) but that may not really matter -- but the plan smacks of A&O, and I doubt any of the other three would willingly follow Lorgar or Curze.

[Wade Garrett]

Going by big Traitor pow wow in The First Heretic it seems as if Lorgar was at least nominally running the show.

 

Which...isn't quite as insane as it seems, recall that in A Thousand Sons he was the one to pull Russ and Magnus away from each other's throats, and you probably want somebody with peace making and wheel greasing credentials to handle the...unique group dynamic of Perturabo, Alpharius, and Curze.

[Marshal Rohr]

I would imagine the Crusade would not have worked for 200 years if it was nigh impossible to get Curze, Perturabo, and Alpharius to do things as a group. As funny as it is when you make it sound like he sits in on briefings dragging a claw across a skull or gnawing on babies, Curze was still a Primarch and as such probably had the ability to do commander-y things. Perturabo and Alpharius have both been recorded as being able to work with others else where. Even Angron went to the meetings. 

[Kais Klip]

I can't speak to Dorn giving Ferrus command, but both Vulkan and Corax seemed to accept his command of the situation despite the Iron Hands being the smallest contingent numbers-wise.

 

Which raises an interesting corollary. Who commanded the Second Wave Legions? They all arrived together, so it makes sense that they were traveling together. Perturabo seems the best choice -- in terms of Legion designation, he has seniority (IVth, compared to VIIIth, XVIIth, and XXth) but that may not really matter -- but the plan smacks of A&O, and I doubt any of the other three would willingly follow Lorgar or Curze.

You pretty much quote Massacre on this in that the second wave and the traitor plan of action "had all the hallmarks of the Alpha Legion". Of course Horus would be given all the credit, all the less heat for Alpharius and co when they come out of the closet waving the aquillian banner.

 

In terms of leadership I don't think anyone went over the top, in my head I just imagine your typical locker room of top of their game "alright you all know what needs to be done, kick some arse." professionals before drop time. Ofcourse someone picks up the stick in the field but at the end of the day the collective wins over in such as hoc leadership, as the Iron Hands can attest to.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Rather than the Legion numeration having an effect on seniority between Primarchs, the order of discovery may have had more significance - when Massacre says that Ferrus lead other Legions & Primarchs, it specifies younger Primarchs (as in, discovered later). Admittedly, the only Primarchs discovered before him were Horus & Leman Russ, but it does imply that the punctuality of their discovery, in combination with their Leadership skills and general character may have been a deciding factor in who took charge. Which would suggest Perturabo.

[Kol Saresk]

The First Heretic actually makes it look Lorgar came up with the plan. Or at least, he leads the briefing on it and reminds everyone of their roles. Glean from that what you will.

[Deadlight]

as far as the great crusade goes, I would say that Lorgar was the most "redundant" of Primarchs. Weakest fighter, and wasted time preaching faith in his father, which meant that the ultramarines had to go and undo.

At least Lorgar's conquests could still pay tithes to the Imperium (unlike the bombed out butcher's yards Angron left in his wake) and his Legion never started a war with any of the others until Chaos took a hand (Russ and Angron on Ghenna, Russ and Magnus on Shrike).

Like Monarchia??? :P

[Wade Garrett]

as far as the great crusade goes, I would say that Lorgar was the most "redundant" of Primarchs. Weakest fighter, and wasted time preaching faith in his father, which meant that the ultramarines had to go and undo.

At least Lorgar's conquests could still pay tithes to the Imperium (unlike the bombed out butcher's yards Angron left in his wake) and his Legion never started a war with any of the others until Chaos took a hand (Russ and Angron on Ghenna, Russ and Magnus on Shrike).

Like Monarchia??? :P

I think you mean Khur, the planet the city of Monarchia was located on.

And yes, it was a model of compliance and paying your tithes on time until Roboute Guilliman decided to orbitally bombard it back to the Stone Age.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Now, now.  We all know that wasn't Gilly's call; the Big E made him do it.  Probably still shouldn't have been done, but that's grimdark for you.

[Conn Eremon]

as far as the great crusade goes, I would say that Lorgar was the most "redundant" of Primarchs. Weakest fighter, and wasted time preaching faith in his father, which meant that the ultramarines had to go and undo.

At least Lorgar's conquests could still pay tithes to the Imperium (unlike the bombed out butcher's yards Angron left in his wake) and his Legion never started a war with any of the others until Chaos took a hand (Russ and Angron on Ghenna, Russ and Magnus on Shrike).

Like Monarchia??? :P

I think you mean Khur, the planet the city of Monarchia was located on.

And yes, it was a model of compliance and paying your tithes on time until Roboute Guilliman decided to orbitally bombard it back to the Stone Age.

If some alien species came along and cast Fist From The Heavens on New York City, would Earth be knocked back to the Stone Age?

[Marshal Rohr]

They wouldn't have to do that. All they have to do is blow an EMP at the right level and invade.

[Wade Garrett]

"Their warriors have walked the streets of Monarchia, forcing the people to abandon the city. Those who resisted were butchered. Fate willing, they will be remembered as martyrs. Monarchia is not alone. Sixteen cities across the planet stand empty, likewise swept clean of life."

-The First Heretic, page 27

 

The eyes of every warrior, officer, serf and slave were fixed on the planet Khur, and the capital city that had once been visible from space. In a sense, it still was: An ashen stain blackening a quarter of a continent.

-page 32

 

"I am sure none of us are blind to the echoes of those ancient events taking place here. How many orbital bombardments have we prosecuted ourselves? How many times have we battled in the ruins of a sky blasted city? This was more than simple destruction, this was eradication. The Ultramarines did as they meant to, and wiped every significant remnant of Khur's culture from the face of the planet. A lesson for us, and a lesson for the people."

-page 67

 

That sounds like a bit more than "just" New York going kerblooie, Cormac.

[Conn Eremon]

Yeah, okay, I apparently had the scale wrong.

 

Western Europe, then.

 

Because, I mean it would suck all kinds of hardcore. But I don't see Western Civilization falling overnight unless far more than a quarter of the continent (Especially if it's Australia. Sorry Australia) is bombed.

 

Granted, one would think such a bombardment would be a disastrous, extinction level event. Tantamount to all of Yellowstone's hotspots going off at once, the existence of which proves that God hates us. But did First Heretic describe that happening at all? Didn't seem to faze the Legion that was forced to kneel at ground zero.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, when I read Xaphen's monologue about all of Khur's culture being wiped out, I assumed it meant...the entire culture was wiped out.

 

Perhaps not with the mass bloodshed Angron or Russ would have done it with, but all the industry, works of art, records of the worship of the God Emperor....yes, that would be a monumental task, but the Ultramarines, Custodians, Guilliman, and the Emperor were there two months waiting on Lorgar.

 

I'd say taking a space age civilization back to square one (which, short of planetary genocide, is what it would take to un Lectio Divinatusify a world the Pre Heresy Word Bearers reshaped) in sixty days is definitely within that bunch's capabilities.

[GhostMalone]

Cormac Australia is the Stone Age.

[Conn Eremon]

I guess it makes sense if Monarchia was Khur. I mean, not all worlds in 40k have such widely spread populations. So if the majority of Khur's population resided in Monarchia.

And even though there were plenty of survivors for Khur to live on, I'm sure that the mortals left behind to achieve re-Compliance, as there must have been, might have had a hand in seeking the coffin over their religiously-bent society.

[Augustus]

Were those accounts of destruction through the eyes of the Word Bearers and people of Khur? If so, perhaps their account is subject to hyperbole and exaggeration?