Unremembered Empire....initial review

[b1soul]

Lorgar was on the ground ready to die. Curze actually had to help him up off

the ground and then shrugged him off. When Curze intervened, Corax was

actually throwing the killing blow. And Corax also fled because he

realized if he didn't punch a hole through the Night Lords' lines, the

Raven Guard would die.

 

 

Primarch's recover remarkably fast...and you admitted it yourself, Lorgar was able to stand in short order,

he was far from dead, no one had to carry him off on a stretcher. He recovered and continued leading his Word Bearers on the

field. Was he weakened? No doubt. Would an injured Lorgar be a non-threat if Corax

exposed his back to him while engaging Curze? Do I really have to answer that for you?

 

Assuming Curze and Corax are pretty evenly matched (which seems likely), we

don't know how long a fight between the two would drag out. Can Corax

really afford to be attacked from behind by Logar while engaged in a

duel with Curze? Interference by a single marine messed up Curze in his

first duel with the Lion, can you imagine the difference another

primarch stepping in might make? I'd appreciate a bit more intellectual honesty from you.

 

We won't be able to do any kind of analysis if we wait for every Primarch fight to start with both opponents posturing. It happens, of course. Just not a lot. Usually someone throws the first punch/stab/strike. And it's perfectly normal, I think.

 

It almost sounds like you're arguing that throwing a sucker-punch isn't hugely advantageous for the guy doing it...and your rationale seems to be every fight starts with a first strike? I mean, there's a world of difference between throwing the first strike against an opponent ready to fight to the death and sucker-punching someone who's verbally reprimanding you.

 

We simply don't know how Curze vs. Dorn played out...but knowing Dorn's personality, at that time, Dorn probably would've viewed striking a brother as something close to heresy.

[helterskelter]

 

Noise Marines = Worst Blues Players Ever

"This is the most depressing thing I've ever heard in my life. IT'S AWESOME!"

Typhus of the Death Guard, listening to the Kakophonii's first and only performance of "The My Legion Brothers Just Left On the Got Betrayed and Virus Bombed From Orbit On Isstvan Train Blues"

by mashed potatoes vairosian

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Lorgar was on the ground ready to die. Curze actually had to help him up off

the ground and then shrugged him off. When Curze intervened, Corax was

actually throwing the killing blow. And Corax also fled because he

realized if he didn't punch a hole through the Night Lords' lines, the

Raven Guard would die.

 

 

Primarch's recover remarkably fast...and you admitted it yourself, Lorgar was able to stand in short order,

he was far from dead, no one had to carry him off on a stretcher. He recovered and continued leading his Word Bearers on the

field. Was he weakened? No doubt. Would an injured Lorgar be a non-threat if Corax

exposed his back to him while engaging Curze? Do I really have to answer that for you?

 

Assuming Curze and Corax are pretty evenly matched (which seems likely), we

don't know how long a fight between the two would drag out. Can Corax

really afford to be attacked from behind by Logar while engaged in a

duel with Curze? Interference by a single marine messed up Curze in his

first duel with the Lion, can you imagine the difference another

primarch stepping in might make? I'd appreciate a bit more intellectual honesty from you.

 

 

THe same situation happened with him, Angron and Guilliman on Nuceria. Was he a threat to Guilliman then? Of course, we could point out that in Nuceria, he didn't need help getting up. We could also point out that Lorgar's mind was distracted in Nuceria. We could also point out that Lorgar chose to fight Corax believing he would be killed. We could also point out that when Lorgar and Corax were fighting, the fight was moving faster than human eyes could even perceive. We could also point at that at this specific moment at Istvaan V, Lorgar had sweat stinging his eyes and it was all he could do to keep from being killed shadow-fast. We could point out so many things that show at this point in time, in this particular fight, Lorgar was outclassed to the extreme. Where he had only put a dent in Corax's breastplate and break a(singular here) claw, Lorgar had been cut by the Raven's wing blades repeatedly, his faced scarred by the Raven's claws and then stabbed and sawed through by those same claws afterwards. The exact wording was that "the Raven Lord was carving his brother in half." When Corax removed his claws, he snagged bone and it is said that the removal did more damage than the impalement. Page 458 describes how Lorgar was shaky and weak as he picked up his crozius, after he used Curze as a crutch to get up and Curze shoved him away.

 

So yes, by the time he recovered enough to contribute to the battle between Corax and Curze, I fully believe it would have been over and any help Lorgar could offer would be redundant as he would either be finished off, or told off.

[Cerbero666]

Guys, I was thinking...I don't know if anyone put this before but, have you noticed the similarities between the Silver Skulls symbol and those of the Iron Warriors and therefore Dantioch mask?? It always seems strange to me, but now that we know that Dantioch and his men are on Ultramar, we can speculate with cool conspiracy theories. Do you think they get absorbed by the Ultramarines? or is just a reminder of the actions that Dantioch did to help Guilliman? Like some honour in his name. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Given the proclivities of the Skulls and the Warriors and how disparate they are, I'm going to go with "unintentional coincidence."

[DuskRaider]

Guys, I was thinking...I don't know if anyone put this before but, have you noticed the similarities between the Silver Skulls symbol and those of the Iron Warriors and therefore Dantioch mask?? It always seems strange to me, but now that we know that Dantioch and his men are on Ultramar, we can speculate with cool conspiracy theories. Do you think they get absorbed by the Ultramarines? or is just a reminder of the actions that Dantioch did to help Guilliman? Like some honour in his name. 

This is actually a really cool idea. Perhaps if Dantioch survives the Heresy we'll find out.

[Noctus Cornix]

Dantioch... I still hate that name.

[Legionator]

The novel was pretty cool, though there are two points I wonder:

 

 

1) The Emperor (may his name be praised) tells his sons they were scattered by some intelligent and malevolent beings in the warp according to Gulliman. So, isn't the whole "golly, there are deamons, no this can't be true!!" stuff in the series is meaningles? Even the Emperor aka the Richard Dawkins of the 30th Millennium admits the existence of paranormal entities at the early times of the crusade.

 

2) Konrad Curze aka Night Haunter aka Gypsy Fortuneteller says Lion that he will be accused of being deliberately late to Siege of Terra in order to see who is winning. But Guilliman, Sanguinius, several members of the other loyalist legions knows Lion's loyalty. According to the old fluff DA and SW was travelling together to Terra, so Russ probably will be aware of the truth. I think now there is no room for that kind of speculation.

 

[Scribe]

1. Whats the exact quote for that?

[Wade Garrett]

Just wait till the next time Gav Thorpe writes a Lion-centric story. He'll be back to being nuttier than Curze and Angron combined before you know it.

[Legionator]

1. Whats the exact quote for that?

 

I don't have the book right now. But Guilliman was also saying that he didn't believe the Emperor in that case. IIRC it takes place where Guilliman thinks about DA's being the first legion and Horus is the first found.

[Kol Saresk]

The novel was pretty cool, though there are two points I wonder:

 

 

2) Konrad Curze aka Night Haunter aka Gypsy Fortuneteller says Lion that he will be accused of being deliberately late to Siege of Terra in order to see who is winning. But Guilliman, Sanguinius, several members of the other loyalist legions knows Lion's loyalty. According to the old fluff DA and SW was travelling together to Terra, so Russ probably will be aware of the truth. I think now there is no room for that kind of speculation.

You haven't by chance read Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe yet, have you?

[Conn Eremon]

Given the proclivities of the Skulls and the Warriors and how disparate they are, I'm going to go with "unintentional coincidence."

 

Or intentional, much like how the Hawk Lords look like the Emperor's Children. Not meant to have an actual relation, but perhaps put there as an excuse for people to play with the color scheme and/or symbol.

[Legionator]

 

The novel was pretty cool, though there are two points I wonder:

 

 

2) Konrad Curze aka Night Haunter aka Gypsy Fortuneteller says Lion that he will be accused of being deliberately late to Siege of Terra in order to see who is winning. But Guilliman, Sanguinius, several members of the other loyalist legions knows Lion's loyalty. According to the old fluff DA and SW was travelling together to Terra, so Russ probably will be aware of the truth. I think now there is no room for that kind of speculation.

You haven't by chance read Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe yet, have you?

 

Nope. It is on my reading list though.

[Kol Saresk]

It sheds a ton of light on that specific instance. Mostly because it's the inspiration for it.

[Kasper_Hawser]

One needs to read Angel of Darkness with a great pinch of salt though, as the story is primarily told from the perspective of a "Fallen Angel", a terran Dark Angel named Merir Astellan. Depending on how one reads it, most of it heavily implies that the Lion was a paranoid person who practised favoritism on his own legion, mainly favouring Calibanites over the Terrans. The book is quite old now though, and as you say, HH now confirms that the Lion was loyal beyond a doubt to the Emperor, but is rather an uneven  mercurial character towards his own sons.

[Artemid]

One needs to read Angel of Darkness with a great pinch of salt though, as the story is primarily told from the perspective of a "Fallen Angel", a terran Dark Angel named Merir Astellan. Depending on how one reads it, most of it heavily implies that the Lion was a paranoid person who practised favoritism on his own legion, mainly favouring Calibanites over the Terrans. The book is quite old now though, and as you say, HH now confirms that the Lion was loyal beyond a doubt to the Emperor, but is rather an uneven  mercurial character towards his own sons.

 

One should read it that way, but many didn't, and took it as near-canon, prompting all the "Lion's a traitor"/"Lion's a fence-sitter" stuff that keeps getting espoused.

[Perrin]

The novel was pretty cool, though there are two points I wonder:

 

 

1) The Emperor (may his name be praised) tells his sons they were scattered by some intelligent and malevolent beings in the warp according to Gulliman. So, isn't the whole "golly, there are deamons, no this can't be true!!" stuff in the series is meaningles? Even the Emperor aka the Richard Dawkins of the 30th Millennium admits the existence of paranormal entities at the early times of the crusade.

 

2) Konrad Curze aka Night Haunter aka Gypsy Fortuneteller says Lion that he will be accused of being deliberately late to Siege of Terra in order to see who is winning. But Guilliman, Sanguinius, several members of the other loyalist legions knows Lion's loyalty. According to the old fluff DA and SW was travelling together to Terra, so Russ probably will be aware of the truth. I think now there is no room for that kind of speculation.

 

 

1. Don't they use the explanation that daemons and other warp things are just xenos that live in the warp, at least pre-heresy anyway.

 

2. A lot could happen between now and then. We still need to see why Sanguinius arrives at Terra but Guilliman and the Lion don't. Maybe the Lion does something that makes the others doubt him? I could see him objecting to Sanguinius being proclaimed the new Emperor, I'm sure there's a quote in one of the short stories where he says something about if the Emperor is dead no one deserves to succeed him, something like that. He also seems pretty arrogant, he might be wondering why Sanguinius has been chosen and not him. Although who knows, the Lion in this novel was a completely different character from the Lion in previous novels unfortunately.

[Kais Klip]

 

The novel was pretty cool, though there are two points I wonder:

 

 

1) The Emperor (may his name be praised) tells his sons they were scattered by some intelligent and malevolent beings in the warp according to Gulliman. So, isn't the whole "golly, there are deamons, no this can't be true!!" stuff in the series is meaningles? Even the Emperor aka the Richard Dawkins of the 30th Millennium admits the existence of paranormal entities at the early times of the crusade.

 

2) Konrad Curze aka Night Haunter aka Gypsy Fortuneteller says Lion that he will be accused of being deliberately late to Siege of Terra in order to see who is winning. But Guilliman, Sanguinius, several members of the other loyalist legions knows Lion's loyalty. According to the old fluff DA and SW was travelling together to Terra, so Russ probably will be aware of the truth. I think now there is no room for that kind of speculation.

 

 

1. Don't they use the explanation that daemons and other warp things are just xenos that live in the warp, at least pre-heresy anyway.

 

2. A lot could happen between now and then. We still need to see why Sanguinius arrives at Terra but Guilliman and the Lion don't. Maybe the Lion does something that makes the others doubt him? I could see him objecting to Sanguinius being proclaimed the new Emperor, I'm sure there's a quote in one of the short stories where he says something about if the Emperor is dead no one deserves to succeed him, something like that. He also seems pretty arrogant, he might be wondering why Sanguinius has been chosen and not him. Although who knows, the Lion in this novel was a completely different character from the Lion in previous novels unfortunately.

Regarding 1): There is nothing paranormal regarding daemons and warp things, they have always been dismissed by the Imperials (AL in Legion) that encountered them as just another xenos horror to crush, rightly so in my eyes. Those that viewed them as some higher power were shown to be deluded about the nature of the warp (Word Bearers, fanatics who where simply awed by ethereal firecrackers and Thousand Sons, who overestimated the warp's benevolence). The only close thing that comes to the paranormal is perhaps psychic powers, and while ADB did make a recent offhand remark that said powers in the universe are ultimately conventional sorcery, that too is quite dismissed with a rational explanation that would be more persuasive than many of the technologies we see in the setting. No gods or kings, only xenos and bare throats! :D

[FunkyMonkey]

How are daemons and warp beings not paranormal?  They can possess people and things and cause the reanimation of the dead.  Furthermore, daemons thrive off of emotion and can't actually die unless their patron god wills them to be eradicated.  Sounds like stereotypical demons to me.

[Conn Eremon]

Doesn't matter what they actually are. The deliberately kept ignorant Great Crusade era Imperium saw them as particularly exotic xenos.

[Kais Klip]

The Umbra, Hrud and a lot of other fringe xenos in the setting posses similar abilities. Even if there is something paranormal in the setting, the abilities we most associate with daemons are present too frequently in other fields to be considered strictly paranormal. The Warp, in-setting wise (don't want to touch that stuff on this forum*) is considered as an extra dimension, and what inhabits it is just another form of xenos. Most _sane_ accounts otherwise is mainly because telling your kid a daemon is just another xeno would be a gross underestimation.

 

*but if you insist, note the face your dog/cat makes when you touch them with a staticaly charged finger. Now stick that expression in power armour. There we go, Lorgar seeing the warp for the first time. Now shoot the b*stard.

 

Edit: just for clarification, I was only partly being funny. I'm no scientist, so excuse any ignorance. Consider static charge, which is a form of electricity. Humans on terra pre m0, and many on those feudal worlds, would look at electricity similar to how 40k Imperial citizens (theists) look at possession. In one, you are giving your static electricity, to the surprise of one (both the dog and those dirty peasants) and in the other you are transferring the soul.

[Kol Saresk]

The daemons are simply something like a throwback to H.P. Lovecraft. It's not that they are supernatural/paranormal, it's that they live in a dimension that is not physical in any sense of the word. It's all created through sheer willpower and one who is strong enough can challenge even the greatest of these creatures. But despite their lack of physicality, these creatures are able to literally reshape the physical world and disrupt the laws of physics just by looking at it the wrong way. The Hrud use an entropy field generated by their biochemical state. Nurgle just farts and a ship will turn to rust and fall apart. The xenos are usually forced to work within the realm of physics and the "paranormal". The gods don't. They have no boundaries but those they set themselves.

[FunkyMonkey]

We've never seen possession or reanimation the way the Chaos forces do it in any xenos species because it's impossible outside of warp abilities.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, it depends on how you define "warp abilities" and "xenos". For example, the Nephilim have been shown to be able to possess the wills of humans. Believed to be a materium-native species. But they do it through psychic powers. Then we get the Enslavers who are immaterium-native and do virtually the same thing. But both species do it through psychic abilities. So its true that it requires abilities that come from the warp, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a creature native to the warp.