Unremembered Empire....initial review

[karden00]

So...Is Luciel Theil...Dead?

How would hte Alpha's have known about him? I guess there are ways, he might have been fairly well known, but still, I hope he is still running around out there =(

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

We could point out so many things that show at this point in time, in this particular fight, Lorgar was outclassed to the extreme. Where he had only put a dent in Corax's breastplate and break a(singular here) claw, Lorgar had been cut by the Raven's wing blades repeatedly, his faced scarred by the Raven's claws and then stabbed and sawed through by those same claws afterwards. The exact wording was that "the Raven Lord was carving his brother in half." When Corax removed his claws, he snagged bone and it is said that the removal did more damage than the impalement. Page 458 describes how Lorgar was shaky and weak as he picked up his crozius, after he used Curze as a crutch to get up and Curze shoved him away.

 

So yes, by the time he recovered enough to contribute to the battle between Corax and Curze, I fully believe it would have been over and any help Lorgar could offer would be redundant as he would either be finished off, or told off.

What are you talking about? A marine...a lowly Astartes was enough to completely mess up Curze when he fought the Lion. I'm sure Curze outclassed that marine by many miles, yet that marine was able to make a difference. A "shaky and weak" Lorgar is still much more powerful than a marine.

 

Curze and Corax exchanged a few words, Corax flew off, and almost immediately Lorgar was able to stand with Curze's help. How do you know that Lorgar wouldn't have recovered in time to trip up Corax from behind? You don't. You don't know how long a fight between Corax and Curze would've dragged out. Such a fight likely would've been much longer than the fight betwen Corax and Lorgar. The longer the fight drags out, the more likely Lorgar will be able to interfere. I'm sure Corax was aware of this.

 

It's also ridiculous to suggest that Corax could've relied on Curze to prevent Lorgar from interfering. I mean...really? Why would Corax trust Curze to "tell off" Lorgar? That would be supreme folly on Corax's part. If there's merely a chance that Lorgar might attempt to backstab, that's enough of a risk to give Corax pause before engaging an opponent as formidable as Curze.

 

Note: I'm of the impression that Lorgar cracked open Corax's breastplate and that he basically disarmed one of Corax's hands (breaking the lightning claw [if you want to use the singular] on one of his hands, which probably means breaking the three blades on that hand). Note that Corax had to replace the broken lightning claw with a power whip, which likely means that the broken lighting claw was rendered useless by Lorgar's blow.

 

One, if Lorgar could trade a thousand blows in the blink of an eye, I'm pretty sure that Lorgar crawling his way back to his feet at normal speed, Corax and Curze would be moving far too fast for him to just "jump in".

 

Second, he didn't "stand up". He grabbed onto Curze, pulled himself to his knees, was shrugged off, told how pathetic and weak he was, and then when Curze saw Argel Tal, he was told how corrupt he was and how deserving of death. Afterwards, he retreated from the main lines. He obviously recovered so fast that he wasn't even sure he could fight normal Astartes. So obviously he would have gotten the jump on one of the two fastest Primarchs currently depicted. Because reasons. Now funnily enough, if you tried to throw Argel Tal in the mix..... But Lorgar? Who can barely stand? Who only got onto his feet after pulling himself up while using someone else as a crutch and then retreated from battle? Not likely. At this point in time, this is not the Lorgar we see in Betrayer. This is not the Curze we see in Savage Weapons or Prince of Crows. This is not the bullet-proof Corax we see in Raven's Flight. This is the Corax, Lorgar and Curze who can fight faster than mortal eyes can perceive. This is the Lorgar who did all he could do to defend himself and failed. This is the Lorgar who only managed to break a nose and a lightning claw while being eviscerated. This is the Lorgar who needed help just to get off the ground. This is the Curze who could move fast enough to surprise Corax. This is the Curze who looked down on Lorgar with a sneer of contempt and disgust. This is the Corax who was burning with hatred. This is the Corax who cared more for his sons than simple retribution. These are the Primarchs we see in The First Heretic.

 

And I don't recall saying that Corax would rely on Curze to keep Lorgar away. It's a simple fact that we can rely on Curze to keep Lorgar away. Curze has never been shown to be a "team player". Even at Istvaan V, the Traitors were killing each other as much as the Loyalists. Curze is not the person who would just welcome help from someone he is looking down on.

 

And the whip replaced the claw on Istvaan V. Deliverance Lost points out that Corax just never bothered fixing it. It broke, he dumped it and he moved on. The only reason his jump pack was fixed was because the Raven Guard took it upon themselves to fix it, not because he asked for it to be fixed.

[Aegnor]

Can't wade through all of this thread, so excuse me if this point was raised after I gave up.

 

I really liked the book. I liked poor Vulkan. I liked Kurze. I loved Guilliman. I liked the Lion. The ambush by ten marines on RG scene was cool in my eyes.

 

One idea re the Pharos lighthouse. It's a Necron artefact yeah? There's a reference to the Cabal, or Eldrad, being scared by memories the light triggers. The design (black, non reflective) and tech (non psychic, accessing something like the Webway) sounds Necron. The name Pharos fits with the Egyptian theme of the new crons too. I wonder whether besides the suggestion that the lighthouse helped attract the Tyranids, it also attracted the Silent King back to the galaxy. In that regard, the Pharos device might have worked a bit like the Monolith in 2001, a tripwire to alert its creators to the emergence of advanced life there.

 

In that case it certainly underlines the dangers of messing with tech you don't understand, albeit in a pretty longterm kind of way.

[Kol Saresk]

I thought Necron artefacts usually interfered with the warp?

[Aegnor]

Lots of them do, but the Dolman gates let them use the Webway, or some version of it. It makes sense the Necrontyr must have had some form of faster-than-light communications. I wonder IF it Necrontyr if it fell into disuse once they became the Necrons given it seems to rely on empathy with the users emotions - maybe that's why if it is Necrontyr, Sotha didn't become a tomb world.

[FunkyMonkey]

Do Necrons still have the "inertia-less" FTL drives for their voidships that they had before 5th/6th Edition?  Or has that been entirely been replaced with the Dolmen Gates as the explanation for their FTL travel capabilities?

[Cerbero666]

The use of empathy to run the machine sounds more Old Ones stuff to me, maybe their way to space travel, more advanced than the Webway and free of the dangers of the warp (apparently).

[Verity]

I've ended up growing to dislike this book, despite my previously positive reaction. Amongst other things, the portrayal of Curze just seems a bit too flat...In the short stories he was featured in, and the flashbacks in various novels, he seems so much more solid and you get a real sense of his character and his drive. In this one, he seems to be lacking those bits. It's the same problem I felt was present in Vulkan Lives.

 

Anyone else get that, or just me?

[Atekim]

Finished reading it, all in all I think it was brilliant.

 

I liked the portrayal of Guilliman. Compared to most other primarchs, who are comic-cookie cutter over the top characters most of the time, he felt like a real person and what is more important very very human. Not above bickering with his mother and joking a bit. (I found that nice, since it shows that they were not raised in a vaccum, at least not all of them. To often they regard normal humans as...sub-lifeforms or something with a complete disregard for them. Even the the Salamanders - who are "supposed" to be the most empathic and human Astartes seem to be more removed from humanity. The Ultramarines were actually portrayed as I would expect from the Salamanders. Not completely removed from humanity, but actually working together. Heck they even have a non-astartes househould-guard. Kudos).

 

I also liked that Abnett always tries to bring the powerlevel of the primarchs down to a more believable level, however the only critique I have is that while doing it so for the loyas primarchs, the one traiter we have in this novel continous to be completely over the top. I am ok with what he does until he met Guilliman and Jonson, since that is what he does...but as soon as he faces two other primarchs, one of which had the :cuss kicked out of him previously...it's to much that he walks away from that without scratch.

 

 

The biggest fault of the novel is not in the novel itself actually. He writes in the end what a great struggle that book was to write because of all the different characters and strands that needed to be woven togehter. I believe him. But it also illustrates that the HH is WAY to much all over the place. Heck, I am sure I missed 2/3 of most reverences simply because I happened not to read a short story, audio drama or simply forgot about a minor detail written two years ago.

 

The really should come up with a story guilde (similr to the one you have for Pratchetts Discword) showing were each storyline is interwoven with each other.

 

That being said I have a small question. When they are Sotha and the Lion confronts Gulliman about using xenos technology, he calls Jonson out about he himself using xeons technologies on the "Invincible Reason", somethin about them having analyzed their warp signature or something. What the hell was that all about? I am sure that is a reference to some short story but I just cannot remember.......

[Cactus]

I think The Lion, one of the four stories in The Primarchs, is what you're thinking of Atekim. Iron Hands, Death Guard and alien technology.

[Wade Garrett]

Xenos technology?

 

The device Lion picked up in that story eats the souls of children and gave a Death Guard the Mark of Nurgle. That's not just "xenos" technology.

 

And I'm certain making use of it isn't going to come back and bite the Dark Angels later.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

 

Xenos technology?

 

The device Lion picked up in that story eats the souls of children and gave a Death Guard the Mark of Nurgle. That's not just "xenos" technology.

 

And I'm certain making use of it isn't going to come back and bite the Dark Angels later.

 

 

Sent back to caliban perhaps, and maybe used by Luther I hope!

[Captain Idaho]

I would like to point out Curze didn't come away without a scratch. In fact, Guilliman drew blood twice.

[Kol Saresk]

I would like to point out Curze didn't come away without a scratch. In fact, Guilliman drew blood twice.

Not to mention Polux drew some blood as well.

[Aegnor]

Xenos technology?

 

The device Lion picked up in that story eats the souls of children and gave a Death Guard the Mark of Nurgle. That's not just "xenos" technology.

 

And I'm certain making use of it isn't going to come back and bite the Dark Angels later.

It's not clear that the entity-device the DAs took is what gave that character the Mark of Nurgle. Indeed I don't think it did. Nurgle gave him the Mark, presumably because he was pleased with the character's actions. Which means at least one of the gods wants the DAs to have the device. Which isn't great and supports your comment that it will come back and bite the DAs.

[Atekim]

 

I think The Lion, one of the four stories in The Primarchs, is what you're thinking of Atekim. Iron Hands, Death Guard and alien technology.

 

 

I admit I am drawning a blank here. It's a device that eats the soul of children? What for? Just because (eg. what else does it do? I suppose it has some other practical application, otherwise Jonson wouldn't have kept it?) And what has that to do with the Invincible Reason and why is it detectable for the Ultramarines....?

 

Need me to find a copy of the primarchs......see that's what I hate about the whole thing...just miss one short story or forget about it because it was just average and bland and you have no idea what they are even talking about.

[Cactus]

Briefly, and from memory,

the Death Guard (led by Calas Typhon) and Iron Hands are squabbling over an ancient xenos device that's being studied in an Imperial facility. The Lion shows up, slaps them both down, talks to the device (it's sentient) and cuts a deal whereby it will help him with his warp travel. Some more Iron Hands appear and tell the Lion about Guilliman rallying loyal forces at Macragge. The Lion takes the xenos-thing and makes for Macragge, determined to slap Roboute down too if he appears to be building his own seccessionist empire.

 

 

I assume that the Ultramarines spotted something unusual about the Lion's arrival in the Macragge system, something related to his use of said xenos-thing. They don't know what, just that it wasn't a normal transition from the warp.

[Emperor's Furor]

Yeah Roboute states as much during his heart to heart with the Lion, he says something a long the lines of, that wasn't a normal warp translation.

[Atekim]

Cool, thank you both for clearing that up for me. I admit that was bugging me a bit.

 

Another quick question I am not sure I missed a tidbit somewhere. Do we actually know what Olls mission is? (One of the perpetuals). I think we saw him twice so far in Know No Fear and another short story, but so far he is just running from point a to b dodging enemies and daemons etc. but do we know where he actually is supposed to end up and what he's planning to do? He was again mentioned in this book but again, no idea what he is actually supposed to do.

[Aegnor]

I'd assume it's to make it to Terra in time for the final showdown.

[Kol Saresk]

No, we don't. We just know that it was given to him by Grammaticus and apparently is something the Cabal doesn't want to happen.

[Aegnor]

Not just the Cabal. Chaos doesn't want Oll to succeed either, given they have daemons chasing him.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, but I was focusing more on the fact that John was an agent of the Cabal under severe scrutiny and that whatever he sent Oll to do, was against the will of his masters.

 

Damon Prytanis had a daemon sent after him an he was supposed to kill John Grammaticus.

[Cactus]

Cool, thank you both for clearing that up for me. I admit that was bugging me a bit.

 

Another quick question I am not sure I missed a tidbit somewhere. Do we actually know what Olls mission is? (One of the perpetuals). I think we saw him twice so far in Know No Fear and another short story, but so far he is just running from point a to b dodging enemies and daemons etc. but do we know where he actually is supposed to end up and what he's planning to do? He was again mentioned in this book but again, no idea what he is actually supposed to do.

 

A lot people (me included) have speculated that he will arrive on the Vengeful Spirit in time to interrupt the Emperor's showdown with Horus. He seems to be a reinterpretation of Ollaneus Pious whose death, in the original tale, caused the Emperor to realise that there was no hope of redeeming Horus so he opened an alpha-plus can of psychic whoopass on his favourite son. This is only speculation though, none of the books have stated outright what Oll's mission is.

[Sabadin]

Actually, in one of his internalized thoughts in Mark of Calth he talks about how stupid it feels to be risking his life to go to terra to preserve "that man's dreams" after refusing to take part in his plans all these millennia. Between that and the vision from Grammaticus showing Oll standing between Horus and a wounded Emp they've spelled out his goal pretty clearly.