Lord Asvaldir Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Obviously if people want to play NL for fluff then people will play NL But in terms of rules, of you are looking to play a jumpy. stealthy, pod army, RG just do it so much better. The only thing NL have is TfM The reason why i posted this is because i was hoping FW fixes NL, because i love the fluff, models and paint scheme but right now i am tempted just just play my NL with RG rules I think you're just not seeing it, NL and RG are similar but just not the same. RG are better at some aspects of drop assault/stealth like utilizing any unit with combi weapons or support squads, while NLs are better at utilizing units like assault marines, terminators and anything close combat related. You really can make an optimized NL list that is equal to an optimized RG list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgascoine011 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 You didn't even know there were new rules, a LOT of things have changed. Night Lords are fine and do not in any way lose out to Raven Guard if you build the list to their strengths. Do you know Night Lords got revamped Legion perks and book VI added new Rites and a character? All power-armored specialist units, including Dark Furies and Mor Deythan who survived the core upgrade better than most, suffer when compared to terminator uniques or core choices. You are objectively wrong. Urgh, once again, i only didnt know they got combi weapons I have the new rules for all books and all legions And new legion rules for NL? You mean 5++ cover for the 1st turn? The same thing i say every legion/army/fraction can get simply by standing in a wood, this is literally the most pointless rule any legion can get. The only thing it helps with is 2++ cover on podding dreadnoughts and even then you can just pod them into terrain. The new TfM is the only thing going for NL. I am not saying NL sre bad, its just they need a few fixes Namely: Raptors getting chainglaives as standard, terror squads being cheaper and access to chainglaives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Really, just because you can get +5 cover by standing in a forest you think strike from the shadows is completely useless? You see absolutely no value in a cover say that you can have anywhere on the board for the first turn, which is particularly helpful for drop pod units if you get first turn? Plus unlike other factions if you have Curze or use terror assault that +5 cover is nearly guaranteed to be +4, or you can use legion recon company or drop assault vanguard which further stack on benefits to that rule. Yes both raptors and terror squads could use a pts decrease, but that's pretty much only because their equivalent normal marine units, assault marines and veterans got a decrease in the last update, so our units should reflect that pts change. Really though it's not the end of the world, NLs are still very effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Woods are not always available, or not always in a convenient location, and don't help against barrage. Night fighting + guaranteed cover save = good. I'm sorry you can't see that. Terror squads may be a tad expensive, but they are still fine. They are better off than most specialist units in power armor. Many Legion uniques could use some fixes. Night Lords core rules are fine, and they do not suffer in comparison to Raven Guard. Again, your core premise is flawed, but by all means, if your only goal is having the best rules, go Raven Guard, and then when you discover that they aren't the master race you seem to think, we'll see you hop over to another Legion forum that's flavor of the month. I hear Thousand Sons are our new lords and masters. ;) Or.... you could post a list and get some suggestions from the wonderful folks in this forum and this thread (they are very polite and helpful murderers, after all). Lord Asvaldir and LtDan 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) Dude. It's 5+ cover in the open. It stacks with stealth (hello night fight) and shroud; it lets you deploy extremely aggressively since you get a 4+ cover save in the open from all the shooting, while not hindering your maneuverability/fire lanes. Curze instantly gives his squad a 2+. It doesn't help dreadnought since they don't have the LA rule. NL don't need fixes. They're capable of doing pod heavy lists, backed up with some of the best melee units in the game. You get deep striking terminators with combi plas, you get terror squads as the best infantry shredders in the game, you get one of the best non-primarchs as sevetar. Coming into a thread, telling people who've played extensively with these rules, that the army is bad, while displaying an utter lack of your own knowledge isn't the best strategy. If you need help making a good list or not being bad in-game, we can help. And just for the record, my Night Lords win far, far more than my Raven Guard do @wither: since woods are almost always area terrain, they do help vs barrage Edited February 16, 2017 by SkimaskMohawk Withershadow, Lord Asvaldir, AceofAllTradez and 3 others 6 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Last time I used woods it was on a "Nurglified" board and it was just the Citadel Woods and kitbashed trees as singles without the little area base. Everything other game seems to be on an "ice and rock" planet or a manufactorum or ruined city of some sort. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angmarred Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Can someone post a solid sample Terror Assault list with Curze? I've been trying to put one together but can't seem to get everything to click. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Are there any other useful RoWs for the NLs? Just watched the MWG batrep between a terror list and RG and saw them get chewed up. Honestly the preferred enemy on the terror squads makes back its points almost instantly, however, the terror squads folded against assault squads decently equipped. I think that terror squads lose out quite a bit on the talent for murder, wouldn't it be better to maybe run big NL assault squads with apothecaries now? Cheaper, can get a FNP now, and can make use of TfM. It will also free you up from having the heavy slot restriction and having to take three terror squads minimum. 1 Praetor/Delegatus 3 Apothecaries with jump packs 15 man Raptor squad 2 15 man assault squads Leviathan in pod with melta lance Sicaran with lascannons 2x2 lascannon Javelin speeders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Well the whole point of TfM is not being fair on its application, so ganging up on one squad, or blasting it a lot before hand is good. That being said, I do love me some Raptors outnumbering, or even Tacs coming out of a spartan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 All I gotta say on the subject of NL vs Ravenguard is: who won at istavaan 5? Yeah that's right the night lords. @jgascoine011 When it comes to the 5+ cover save, I mean it's important to consider that it allows you to be mobile so that you aren't stuck in a tree for the first turn. That's pretty big, unless all your doing is playing a gun line. Also do you play night lords or ravenguard? @depthcharge that looks like a pretty good idea, though I'm pretty sure te reasoning for why no one runs it is due to the shortage of people who possess Assault marines due to lacking a plastic kid and previsouly costing too many points to bother with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Dude got chewed up because he wasn't thinking like a night lord In that mwg batrep. Should never have flown Curze off by himself and he shouldn't have out flanked his vets, and his raptors were under armed (in my opinion of course) Night Lords players should also nearly always think about we are one of 2 legions/3 armies (curse you custodes who get to teleport basically everything) that can deep strike terminators. Which can work well with terror assault and allows some much needed ap2 to be present on the table. Also, terror assault is brilliant for what it allows in the right circumstances which you largely have to engineer for yourself with the other thing a hope for that sweet T2 night fight, which not only helps you live longer, allows Raptors to charge under cover of darkness. Which is bad for the other guy (and another point in the mwg battle rep which didn't help the NL guy at all) Balthamal and AceofAllTradez 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Yeah Marshal hit the heart of the problem for me, I would absolutely love to run two fifteen man assault marine units with 3 power weapons plus a geared up sarge with apothecaries in a DAV list, they are so perfect in a NL list because they make excellent use of TfM and the first turn cover save, but I just don't have the models to run that and thirty resin assault marines is pricey so probably won't anytime soon. Also raptors plus assault marines, sounds like too much, cool as that might look to have a horde of nearly fifty jump pack marines swooping across the table. I think I'd rather invest in more anti tank and fire support options like a jetbikes, speeders and fliers. Also pretty much always include a 5 man terminator unit with combi plas and transponders in all my lists, too good to pass up on. @Angmarred, I just made a list with curze that has two ten man terror squads with pods, a five man with a pod, a contemptor-cortus in a pod and dual graviton, 5 terminators with combi plas and a chaplain, 2 javelins and a leviathan in a pod. Granted I've never actually run Curze solo before, I'd prefer to drop the terminators to make room for a raptor or assault marine escort, but running him solo would be something fun to try I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 As far as other Rites, several have synergies with the NL perks. Sky Hunter Phallanx gives you bulky troops with hammer of wrath, that don't have to jink on the first turn. Drop Assault Vanguard lets you deep strike a pair of assault squads. You do remain constrained in your heavy support options with both of these Rites, however. You can go Primarch's Chosen and bring a bunch of teleporting cataphracts and/or veterans. You can also always run Orbital Assault, and rather than tactical squads in pods, fill one or both of your compulsory slots with Assault Marines who can serve as your anchor unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Erm Night Lords need improving? Really? NL are top tier easily at the moment. At least when used properly. Terror Marines are the best infantry killers in the game - Preferred enemy and volkites. Enough said. A decent Terror Assault list depends heavily on what you're facing regularly. If it's a lot of infantry then you're in paradise. If it's more heavily armoured then you need to be making some smart choices regarding the single heavy support slot. As a rule of thumb mine always includes: Curze Jetbikes Terror Squads (full 10 man armed with volkites) Leviathan (either 1 podded) or 2 foot slogging The rest is made up of units used to shore up other areas. Lightnings are a decent bet being a fast attack option same as multimelta rhinos for the Terror Squads. Here's a list I used at an event that worked out very well. Siege Breaker - Thunder Hammer, Combi Melta, Melta bombs Jetbike Terror Squad - x10 Volkites AA.Melta Bombs, Drop Pod Terror Squad - x10 Volkites AA.Melta Bombs, Drop Pod Terror Squad - x10 Volkites AA.Melta Bombs, Drop Pod Quad Launcher Battery - x3 Shatter Shells, Phosphex JetBikes - x6, Plasma Cannons, Melta Bombs Leviathan - Melta Lance, Armoured Ceremite, Phosphex, Drop Pod Curze That comes to 2.5K dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 The rest is made up of units used to shore up other areas. Lightnings are a decent bet being a fast attack option same as multimelta rhinos for the Terror Squads. Terror Squads can't take Rhinos, unless my memory is deceiving me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 The rest is made up of units used to shore up other areas. Lightnings are a decent bet being a fast attack option same as multimelta rhinos for the Terror Squads. Terror Squads can't take Rhinos, unless my memory is deceiving me Correct. Wrong train of thought. Was thinking of Outflanking Vets when typing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
em_en_oh_pee Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Can someone post a solid sample Terror Assault list with Curze? I've been trying to put one together but can't seem to get everything to click. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330425-3000-night-lords-terror-assault/ How about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Dude got chewed up because he wasn't thinking like a night lord In that mwg batrep. Should never have flown Curze off by himself and he shouldn't have out flanked his vets, and his raptors were under armed (in my opinion of course) Night Lords players should also nearly always think about we are one of 2 legions/3 armies (curse you custodes who get to teleport basically everything) that can deep strike terminators. Which can work well with terror assault and allows some much needed ap2 to be present on the table. Also, terror assault is brilliant for what it allows in the right circumstances which you largely have to engineer for yourself with the other thing a hope for that sweet T2 night fight, which not only helps you live longer, allows Raptors to charge under cover of darkness. Which is bad for the other guy (and another point in the mwg battle rep which didn't help the NL guy at all) I'll agree with your points, but the Terror squads fell apart once the RG closed the distance. I was just making a different list so you can avoid all the issues I noticed Josh run into. I quite like how the Terror list is run, but I think it has some critical errors when considered in da meta. If you run into an AdMech or new SW list, your terror squads won't be able to use infiltrate really, and both lists are adept at just flat out ignoring night fight or reducing cover saves (AdMech). You won't exclusively face these armies all the time, but you'll start running into issues. Relying on just one raptor squad for assault could be an issue too if you're enemy focus fires on them. Terror squads start feeling like vanilla marines when they don't outnumber your opponent and your sgt is the only one with a chainglaive. I'm glad no one brought up the point that drop grav levis would obliterate assault marines, because it's highly unlikely with an apothecary and decent placement. With exception to melta weaponry, all the big gunda bad weapons it has can be largely ignored with some good FNP rolls. Though a terror list can take a couple of Leviathans, your list will start shrinking in size as you have heavy points invested in just a few units. Having only 1 HS can hurt quite a bit - you can usually push Javelins in to augment the list, but you'll be limited in what you can do. Terror assault hurts when facing mech lists like DA IW, IH gorgan, and the armored breakthrough lists that the SW are toying with. I just hope someone runs something other than terror assault and let's me know how it goes lol :P I can't imagine playing with the same list over and over is thrilling. helterskelter 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) I've got a pride list and an armoured breakthrough list (the one with the predators as troops?), will be running pride in a match I hope to be setting up soon ish (trying to find a local scene to be socialable). Also have a terror assault list because we all do :p Edited February 16, 2017 by helterskelter depthcharge12 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angmarred Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Can someone post a solid sample Terror Assault list with Curze? I've been trying to put one together but can't seem to get everything to click. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330425-3000-night-lords-terror-assault/ How about that? I saw that list. My group usually plays at 2500 so if need to cut it. I guess I have a few questions. How important are the pods on the Terror squads? I feel like you're paying for Infiltrate so it's a bit of a waste to not use it. Are you worried about having a quarter of your list in reserve with no manipulation? The newest version with the Grav Cortus fixes that a little but that list needs an awful lot from the fliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
em_en_oh_pee Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Can someone post a solid sample Terror Assault list with Curze? I've been trying to put one together but can't seem to get everything to click. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330425-3000-night-lords-terror-assault/ How about that? I saw that list. My group usually plays at 2500 so if need to cut it. I guess I have a few questions. How important are the pods on the Terror squads? I feel like you're paying for Infiltrate so it's a bit of a waste to not use it. Are you worried about having a quarter of your list in reserve with no manipulation? The newest version with the Grav Cortus fixes that a little but that list needs an awful lot from the fliers. Not really sweating it, honestly. Coming in on a 3+ on T2 means I likely will get most things (33% chance of failure). Keeping some stuff back also isn't always a disadvantage. Like having two Terror Squads show up later means they are shooting at units that have had their transports blown up by my first wave, so they get the most bang for their buck out of their Volkites. The only thing I wish I could more reliably get in is the Xiphon, just to make sure I have a way to swat down enemy flyers quickly, before they do too much damage. That being said, coming in after the opponent isn't always a drawback there either, as I can come in and shoot him and not having him come in and shoot me. And Infiltrate is good, especially with our cover perks, but I can't help but think about them being out in the open close to the enemy and just getting swept away before I can do much (or anything) with them, whereas with the Pods I kind of dictate the rhythm of the battle a bit more... if that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 I saw that list. My group usually plays at 2500 so if need to cut it. I guess I have a few questions. How important are the pods on the Terror squads? I feel like you're paying for Infiltrate so it's a bit of a waste to not use it. Podding vs infiltrating terror squads has long been an unresolved debate for NL tactics, but I think both have their merits so you really can use either depending on your preference. Infiltrating means you saves pts, don't need to rely on reserves and take advantage of our first turn cover save, but at the risk of being shot at before you can strike if you don't get first turn. Podding on the other hand as em_en_oh_pee mentioned gives you the advantage of dictating where you squads will strike and ensuring you are in volkite range first turn, plus it's worth mentioning that if you get the first turn, and podding terror squads will still benefit from strike from the shadows. Personally I prefer pods, mainly because I just love drop pod heavy lists, but if I counted how many times I've infiltrated terror squads vs podding them it's probably 50/50, plus sometimes I do a mix of infiltrating/podding depending on how many other drop pod units I have in my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer1st Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 On modeling assault marines what I've done for mine is use the raptor kit but using standard mk4 helmets (had plenty spare from building my terror squads) instead of the winged ones. It works for me because i prefer the assault marines over raptors, only my characters have the winged helmets and the raptor models are so pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
em_en_oh_pee Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 On modeling assault marines what I've done for mine is use the raptor kit but using standard mk4 helmets (had plenty spare from building my terror squads) instead of the winged ones. It works for me because i prefer the assault marines over raptors, only my characters have the winged helmets and the raptor models are so pretty. I just ordered a slew of bits from KF Studio and some MCM Spiked Vet shoulderpads. On top of that, I will be shortly ordering Night Raptors and Terror Squads for variety too! Winged helmets for Sergeants, trophies for Terror Squad dudes, and all that. Really excited to start building my DAV list... not so happy about the 45 Assault Marines I got to buy. Lord Asvaldir 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 O man those are beautiful, especially those flesh capes. Thanks for sharing, I'll have to pick up a bunch of those for my veterans I'm working on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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