[HH1.0] Night Lords Tactics

[Unknown Legionnaire]

 

Sevatar (Pride of the Legion)

 

5x Command Squad w/ 5 combi-plasmas = 155 (Sevatar here)

 - Land Raider Proteus w/ Extra Armour, Armoured Ceramite, Explorator Augury Web, Twin-Linked Bolter = 240

 

5 Legion Terminators (Cataphractii Axes) w/ Deep Strike, 3  Combi-Plasma, 2 Power Fist = 221

 

5 Legion Terminators (Cataphractii Axes) w/ Deep Strike, 3  Combi-Plasma, 2 Power Fist = 221

 

5 Legion Terminators (Cataphractii Axes) w/ Deep Strike, 3  Combi-Plasma, 2 Power Fist = 221

 

5 Legion Terminators (Cataphractii Axes) w/ Deep Strike, 3  Combi-Plasma, 2 Power Fist = 221

 

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder w/ Multi-Melta, Cyclone Missile Launcher, 2x Hunter Killers = 75

 

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder w/ Multi-Melta, Cyclone Missile Launcher, 2x Hunter Killers = 75

 

Whirlwind Scorpius

 

Legion Vindicator w/ Laser Destroyer Array, Dozer Blade = 135

 

Legion Vindicator w/ Laser Destroyer Array, Dozer Blade = 135

 

Army total  = 1999

 

 

 

Sevatar has always struck me as a really odd character. His Warlord Trait is best used with outflanking Tac Vets or units arriving in an outflanking vehicle.

His 'Master of the Atramentar' ability is namely a ... Nuncio Vox for DS'ing, nothing more.

Yes, PotL seems to befit him, but I'm just really not convinced by his abilities.

 

I'd probably aim for an even spread of Sniper Vets arriving via Outlank and Terminators DS'ing with tranponders.

Sevatar in a Proteus moves him up the battlefield via scout, sure, but I'd prolly just drop him (attached to a unit) in a Dreadclaw turn 1 instead.

 

Command squad with no melee weapons seems odd since they're Fearless and literally meant for melee.

 

I'd max out the weapons on the Terminator squads: 5 combi Plasma, plus 2 Power Fists and a Chainfist at the least.

 

If you focus on DS tactics, I'd forego the Whirlwind or one Vindicator for the aforementioned Damocles.

[Lord Asvaldir]

So brothers, has anyone had the experience of running a NL gunline list?

 

Truth be told that sounds like the biggest waste of NL strengths. Sure, any legion can play any sort of army list technically, but what would be the point of a heavily long ranged oriented NL list? You can have shooting elements of a NL list for sure, we always need that but NLs are always going to have a strong preference for an assault element to an army list in order to take advantage of TfM. 

 

@Destruction1, honestly I think your list with the veterans was better. Replacing them with terminators means you're still relying on reserve rolls, and you're not going to be able to accurately deep strike 20 terminators within 6" of Sevetar. Stick with the veterans, who are more versatile, and don't even have to outflank in every single situation. Those terminators on the other hand pretty much always need to deep strike, and 2 units of 5 all with combi plasma is plenty. 

[jgascoine011]

I have a rules question.

 

If i put a dreadnought in a dreadnought drop pod and deep strike him turn 1, does he get a 2+ cover save, from NL 5+, 3+ from being shrouded in the pod, 2+ from night fighting?

 

 

 

Also if you use terror assault, can you ally with your own legion?

I think the rules say no, but this seems pretty stupid. 

I am just trying to see if you can somehow get a Raptor and a Leviathan in a list.

[helterskelter]

You can only ally with admech, solar auxilia and militia/cults, or a knight house. Or at a really real stretch custodes (if you're pretending to be loyal) Edited February 14, 2017 by helterskelter

[Black_out]

I am just trying to see if you can somehow get a Raptor and a Leviathan in a list.

I wanted to do this with terror assault too :cry:

Edited February 14, 2017 by Black_out

[Riptor]

I have a rules question.

 

If i put a dreadnought in a dreadnought drop pod and deep strike him turn 1, does he get a 2+ cover save, from NL 5+, 3+ from being shrouded in the pod, 2+ from night fighting?

 

 

 

Also if you use terror assault, can you ally with your own legion?

I think the rules say no, but this seems pretty stupid. 

I am just trying to see if you can somehow get a Raptor and a Leviathan in a list.

 

 

 

I am just trying to see if you can somehow get a Raptor and a Leviathan in a list.

I wanted to do this with terror assault too

 

I believe you can use the Terror Assault AS an ally to a main Night Lords force though, correct?

 

Just means fewer troop terror squads, and more veterans (or whatever troops you use according to your primary RoW)

 

 

Edit: Also, to answer your first question, yes. I believe he does.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Riptor

[Caillum]

The same Legion cannot ally with itself, so no 'Terror Assault' Allied Detachment with a Night Lords Primary Detachment.

 

You can take another Legion as the Primary and run 'Terror Assault' as the Allies. The single Heavy Support slot is not even an issue then. I've tried listhammering it before, but it's pretty tricky to get it to fit AND make it effective.

[Riptor]

The same Legion cannot ally with itself, so no 'Terror Assault' Allied Detachment with a Night Lords Primary Detachment.

 

You can take another Legion as the Primary and run 'Terror Assault' as the Allies. The single Heavy Support slot is not even an issue then. I've tried listhammering it before, but it's pretty tricky to get it to fit AND make it effective.

This, I did not know.

 

That changes my army significantly.

[Black_out]

So what points increments do you guys usually use for 30k? I'm trying to have some lists pre-made so I can just grab my stuff and go

[Jarkaira]

250 is the most often used increment based on what lists I have seen on multiple boards and on multiple tournaments and canpaigns.

 

500pts and up with 250 increments.

 

1850 is one odd size which is used because for example ETC uses it.

[Runefyre]

So what points increments do you guys usually use for 30k? I'm trying to have some lists pre-made so I can just grab my stuff and go

I find that I rarely play anything between 1000 and 2000 points, it's either or. Beyond 2000 points it's usually 500 point increments (so 2500, 3000, 3500, etc.).

[jgascoine011]

Has anyone tries the Recon Company RoW?

 

Was thinking that you could have a whole army of 2+ Cover Saves turn 1.

 

This is what I was thinking for 2750

Take Curze, for guaranteed Turn 1 Night Fighting.

A vigilator with jump pack

2 units of assault marines, curze in 1 unit, vigilator in the other

1 unit of recon marines

2 units of Terror Squads

2 Cortus Dreadnoughts dreadnought drop pods

1 Leviathan Dreadnought in dreadnough drop pod

Raptor

 

So curze guarantees night fighting 

The Legion rules give everyone a 5+

Night fighting puts that to a 4+

 

From the ROW, everything with scout or infiltrate gets shrouded turn 1, for a 2+

 - so that is the vigilator (and his unit), recon squad and terror squads

Curze gives his unit stealth and shrouded, for a 2+

The dreadnoughts drop pods give shrouded, for a 2+

 

I dont know about the rule where you cant ally, with your own legion, but if you can (or just house rule that you can) then:

Take sevatar as the allied HQ

 - with the Terror Assault ROW

Move the terror squads across to the allied detachment for troops choices and take drop pods for dedicated transports

You dont need to deploy the terror squads in the drop pods, they are just to get all 3 of the dreadnought pods down turn 1

And once the Night Lords terminators come out, take them (as the Recon Company ROW says no terminators)

 

 

I dont know how competitive this would be and would probably suck vs a typhoon, but it certainly is fluffy

[Riptor]

Has anyone tries the Recon Company RoW?

 

Was thinking that you could have a whole army of 2+ Cover Saves turn 1.

 

This is what I was thinking for 2750

Take Curze, for guaranteed Turn 1 Night Fighting.

A vigilator with jump pack

2 units of assault marines, curze in 1 unit, vigilator in the other

1 unit of recon marines

2 units of Terror Squads

2 Cortus Dreadnoughts dreadnought drop pods

1 Leviathan Dreadnought in dreadnough drop pod

Raptor

 

So curze guarantees night fighting 

The Legion rules give everyone a 5+

Night fighting puts that to a 4+

 

From the ROW, everything with scout or infiltrate gets shrouded turn 1, for a 2+

 - so that is the vigilator (and his unit), recon squad and terror squads

Curze gives his unit stealth and shrouded, for a 2+

The dreadnoughts drop pods give shrouded, for a 2+

 

I dont know about the rule where you cant ally, with your own legion, but if you can (or just house rule that you can) then:

Take sevatar as the allied HQ

 - with the Terror Assault ROW

Move the terror squads across to the allied detachment for troops choices and take drop pods for dedicated transports

You dont need to deploy the terror squads in the drop pods, they are just to get all 3 of the dreadnought pods down turn 1

And once the Night Lords terminators come out, take them (as the Recon Company ROW says no terminators)

 

 

I dont know how competitive this would be and would probably suck vs a typhoon, but it certainly is fluffy

 

 

The latter is exactly what I have been doing, Recon Company with Terror Assault allies, though now I know that is not allowed I am going to swap some things out to fit Curze in.

 

The army works nicely, and can be a surprise for your opponent, however I find because you are spending quite a bit of points on Vigilator(s), Terror Marines, and Recon Marines I am often lacking in anti tank units, and so vehicle heavy armies are a difficulty.

[em_en_oh_pee]

Instead of Recon, have you thought about DAV? I think that just 100% suits Night Lords.

[em_en_oh_pee]

 

I dont know about the rule where you cant ally, with your own legion, but if you can (or just house rule that you can) then:

 

 

The "Allies in the Age of Darkness" chart makes it pretty clear. 

[ThatOneMarshal]

Instead of Recon, have you thought about DAV? I think that just 100% suits Night Lords.

A pretty good Rite if not much more restricting then recon.

 

How would you all equip your recon squads?

[em_en_oh_pee]

 

Instead of Recon, have you thought about DAV? I think that just 100% suits Night Lords.

A pretty good Rite if not much more restricting then recon.

 

How would you all equip your recon squads?

 

 

I think DAV plays to the TfM strengths immensely. 

 

As for Recon squads, I think I would go very basic maybe? I have never used them, but maybe like this:

 

(10) Legion Reconnaissance Squad

Cameleoline, Power Fist, Artificer Armor

[250]

 

That feels so expensive though, really. For 45 more points I get 5 more Assault Marines and three Power Axes. :/

[jgascoine011]

God, I am trying to write a strong but semi-fluffy night lords list, but no matter what i do, FW seem to have something that stops me.

 

Also, why do people play Night Lords over Raven Guard?

Seriously, look at their units compared to Night Lords.

 

10 Night Raptors (with chainglaives) vs 10 Dark Furies.

The raptors have +1WS, Onslaught and Talent for Murder. The Furies have +2A, shred and sudden strike 

This basically means that if the raptors charge then they both kill each other (assuming they dont roll a 1 for onslaught), if the dark furies charge then they wipe the raptors out, and if nobody charges, then the Dark Furies win,

Oh and the bloody dark furies are :cussing cheaper too

 

 

Terror squads vs Strike Squad

For 5 pts/model more, strike squads get +1BS, shroud bombs, 1 turn rending shots, stealth, scout and the ability to take a god damn rhino so they dont get blasted off the bored by arty.

What do terror squads get? +1A and Fear...oh great something that works 1/6 times in combat on a shooting unit, infiltrate...so i cant attach any characters to the unit and the ability to take a deathclaw drop pod, the most expensive and useless of all the drop pods.

Ok you have to take a weapon upgrade for the strike squad but most people take volkites on the terror squad, so in the end a 10 man strike squad is 70 pts more expensive but gets rending flamers...but a 5 man squad is only 10pts more expensive.

 

 

As for legion rules, well

NL get night vision, RG independent character can buy night vision for 5pts

NL get +1 to hit and wound if they outnumber the enemy, this is probably the best thing NL have going for them but its still situational and seeing as NL are not the most shooty legion they are likely to lose models on the way to the enemy

RG get furious charge/infiltrate & fleet

NL get a 5++ cover save for the 1st turn...whoopty frigging do, its not like some trees will do the some thing.

RG can buy scout giving +1 to the cover save all game.

 

 

Both the RoW are pretty crap

With NL you can get your special units as troops, but you really only want 1 unit of night raptors to run with curze, and terror squads are just too expensive to be forced to take 3 units of them.

The only RoW that i think works well for both of them is the recon company, and RG dont need night fighing to get stealth as they can buy it unlike NL who need curze

 

RG have better special characters

Sure sevatar is cool and a beast in combat, but where do you put him? In a unit of terminators?

 

 

The only thing where NL have the edge is in Primarchs where 1v1, curze does beat corax, but this fight takes forever and the game will probably be over by the time they finish fighting.

 

 

 

With NL getting an update in the next HH book i would love to see a few things changed.

From the Shadows gives shrouded...not a 5++ cover save which every god damn legion can get.

Trophies still cause fear but tests are done on 3D6 pick the 2 highest

Raptors come with chainglaves as standard

Terror squads are same price as veteran squads and can all buy chain glaives for 5pts/model.

Edited February 16, 2017 by jgascoine011

[Marshal Loss]

 

Also, why do people play Night Lords over Raven Guard?

 

 

Because people want to play Night Lords, not Raven Guard?

 

- Yes, Night Raptors are overpriced. Yes, another Legion has a better unit. This could well change in the future - in fact I'd be certain it will, Assault Marines got a reduction, email FW and let them know that Night Raptors need a bit of tweaking. If you don't tell them, they won't know.

- Terror Squads can be taken as troops as part of Terror Assault, an incredibly powerful Rite of War that I think you are underselling.

- Their Legion rules reflect the way both Legions fight

- Terror Assault is not crap

- Curze is a monster

 

As you yourself said, Night Lords are getting an update. You'll get Atramentar and possibly a lot more besides.

 

Post the list you've tried to make and people will look at it.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[Lord Asvaldir]

God, I am trying to write a strong but semi-fluffy night lords list, but no matter what i do, FW seem to have something that stops me.

 

Also, why do people play Night Lords over Raven Guard?

 

 

Wow, I've never seen such a pessimistic view of the NL's rules. I also think you're dead wrong with most of your arguments. 

 

So for starters, I will grant you that dark furies are overall better than raptors, having  2 attacks with rending lightning claws is very solid, while raptors are essentially just ws5 assault marines that really rely on charging to be very effective. That being said, TlfM is an awesome rule for these guys, better I think than what Dark Furies get out of their rules, since a big squad of raptors can easily outnumber most targets and get that awesome hit on +2 bonus. So yes furies are better, but I wouldn't just discount raptors. 

 

Next for the terror squad vs the strike squad, sorry but that's an absolutely terribly comparison. Strike suads are a specialized that yes can hit very hard for a single turn with combi weapons and their special strike rule, but they one, can't get drop pods in the rather good Raven Guard RoW which is a hit for them, and two are just a shooting unit, they don't have the versatility of terror squads. Lastly, and probably the most important difference, mor dethyan can never become troop choices, opposed to terror suads which can. I think that's the key difference you're completely missing. Sure, mor dethyan hit harder point for point, but the ability of night lords to not waste pts on tactical squads and instead take troops with freakin volkite chargers is awesome, not to mention they have access to normal pods in terror assault so your point about dreadclaws is invalid. Plus yet again terror suads can make really good use of TfM, with PE, volkites and 4 attacks each on the charge they can bully infantry units very well. 

 

Now for the rules, I won't deny that overall, army wide infiltrate/fleet on infantry is a better utility than the NL rules, since those sort of deployment rules are very powerful. That being said, I think you are way underselling a TfM. A good NL player learns how to use that rule effectively by taking big units and/or fast units to have local superiority, and man does that to hit/wound bonus make a difference in what could be close fights. Also in my opinion it follows are fluff perfectly, NL are all about unfair fights. Also keep in mind before veterans got their price reduction, I'd say terror squads were better than veterans, they just need a price adjustment now to be on equal terms again. 

 

As for strike from the shadows, sure +5 cover for a turn isn't the greatest thing, but again I think you're underselling that rule. First off, often it's +4 cover because of night fight, and I couldn't tell you how often that rules has saved a lot of terror marines after deep striking in or when i choose to infiltrate. Second you make it sound like RG can easily buy army wide camoline, that's completely false, no one is going to have an IC in every single one of their units just for stealth. 

 

Now for the RoWs, are you kidding me, terror assault is crap? That's just wrong. Is it very restrictive? Yes, but it plays to our strengths very well-troop terror suads, bonuses from night fight and access to pods. I'll give you that our other rite is mediocre. 

 

For the special characters, yes Maun has huge utility value, but they have no solid combat characters. Sevetar is a pretty solid combat character, who yes fits quite well in a terminator unit, and ophion is actually pretty good as well considering how tough he is. 

 

As far as why people want to play NL and not RG, well there's an easy answer to that. Beyond just the difference in fluff and color scheme, both of which drew me to NL, there's tactics are substantially different-sure they both have a heavy infiltrate/drop pod influence, but RG are far more shooting oriented while NLs are better at assaults. 

 

Really man I don't see how you're being so negative, you only need to go through 60 pages of tactics on NLs to see that there's a large community here of committed NL fans who  have plenty of experience with NL and have had fun using them. 

[Withershadow]

@Destroyer - Command squads can't take combi-weapons unless in terminator armor.

 

@jg - in an earlier thread you were completely unaware that you are using rules that are 4 years old... is this again the case? Night Lords are awesome even if their uniques are handicapped with power armor. As to why play NL over Raven Guard, that question leads me to believe you don't get the point of the Age of Darkness. Hint: fluff and narrative, that's why. 40K-style minmaxing is seen as cancer by most groups I've encountered.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Withershadow

[jgascoine011]

 

God, I am trying to write a strong but semi-fluffy night lords list, but no matter what i do, FW seem to have something that stops me.

 

Also, why do people play Night Lords over Raven Guard?

 

 

Wow, I've never seen such a pessimistic view of the NL's rules. I also think you're dead wrong with most of your arguments. 

 

So for starters, I will grant you that dark furies are overall better than raptors, having  2 attacks with rending lightning claws is very solid, while raptors are essentially just ws5 assault marines that really rely on charging to be very effective. That being said, TlfM is an awesome rule for these guys, better I think than what Dark Furies get out of their rules, since a big squad of raptors can easily outnumber most targets and get that awesome hit on +2 bonus. So yes furies are better, but I wouldn't just discount raptors. 

 

Next for the terror squad vs the strike squad, sorry but that's an absolutely terribly comparison. Strike suads are a specialized that yes can hit very hard for a single turn with combi weapons and their special strike rule, but they one, can't get drop pods in the rather good Raven Guard RoW which is a hit for them, and two are just a shooting unit, they don't have the versatility of terror squads. Lastly, and probably the most important difference, mor dethyan can never become troop choices, opposed to terror suads which can. I think that's the key difference you're completely missing. Sure, mor dethyan hit harder point for point, but the ability of night lords to not waste pts on tactical squads and instead take troops with freakin volkite chargers is awesome, not to mention they have access to normal pods in terror assault so your point about dreadclaws is invalid. Plus yet again terror suads can make really good use of TfM, with PE, volkites and 4 attacks each on the charge they can bully infantry units very well. 

 

Now for the rules, I won't deny that overall, army wide infiltrate/fleet on infantry is a better utility than the NL rules, since those sort of deployment rules are very powerful. That being said, I think you are way underselling a TfM. A good NL player learns how to use that rule effectively by taking big units and/or fast units to have local superiority, and man does that to hit/wound bonus make a difference in what could be close fights. Also in my opinion it follows are fluff perfectly, NL are all about unfair fights. Also keep in mind before veterans got their price reduction, I'd say terror squads were better than veterans, they just need a price adjustment now to be on equal terms again. 

 

As for strike from the shadows, sure +5 cover for a turn isn't the greatest thing, but again I think you're underselling that rule. First off, often it's +4 cover because of night fight, and I couldn't tell you how often that rules has saved a lot of terror marines after deep striking in or when i choose to infiltrate. Second you make it sound like RG can easily buy army wide camoline, that's completely false, no one is going to have an IC in every single one of their units just for stealth. 

 

Now for the RoWs, are you kidding me, terror assault is crap? That's just wrong. Is it very restrictive? Yes, but it plays to our strengths very well-troop terror suads, bonuses from night fight and access to pods. I'll give you that our other rite is mediocre. 

 

For the special characters, yes Maun has huge utility value, but they have no solid combat characters. Sevetar is a pretty solid combat character, who yes fits quite well in a terminator unit, and ophion is actually pretty good as well considering how tough he is. 

 

As far as why people want to play NL and not RG, well there's an easy answer to that. Beyond just the difference in fluff and color scheme, both of which drew me to NL, there's tactics are substantially different-sure they both have a heavy infiltrate/drop pod influence, but RG are far more shooting oriented while NLs are better at assaults. 

 

Really man I don't see how you're being so negative, you only need to go through 60 pages of tactics on NLs to see that there's a large community here of committed NL fans who  have plenty of experience with NL and have had fun using them. 

 

 

 

Obviously if people want to play NL for fluff then people will play NL

But in terms of rules, of you are looking to play a jumpy. stealthy, pod army, RG just do it so much better.

The only thing NL have is TfM 

 

The reason why i posted this is because i was hoping FW fixes NL, because i love the fluff, models and paint scheme but right now i am tempted just just play my NL with RG rules

[jgascoine011]

@Destroyer - Command squads can't take combi-weapons unless in terminator armor.

 

@jg - in an earlier thread you were completely unaware that you are using rules that are 4 years old... is this again the case? Night Lords are awesome even if their uniques are handicapped with power armor. As to why play NL over Raven Guard, that question leads me to believe you don't get the point of the Age of Darkness. Hint: fluff and narrative, that's why. 40K-style minmaxing is seen as cancer by most groups I've encountered.

 

I didnt know that vet squads could now take combi-weapons in new rules...that was it

 

Again i am just pointing out over how screwed NL got when RG got their update.

[Withershadow]

You didn't even know there were new rules, a LOT of things have changed.

 

Night Lords are fine and do not in any way lose out to Raven Guard if you build the list to their strengths. Do you know Night Lords got revamped Legion perks and book VI added new Rites and a character?  All power-armored specialist units, including Dark Furies and Mor Deythan who survived the core upgrade better than most, suffer when compared to terminator uniques or core choices.  You are objectively wrong.

[Marshal Loss]

jgascoine, could you please post a list of yours?