[HH1.0] Word Bearer's Tactics

[simison]

 

I have a question. How would you run pre-Fall Word Bearers?

Just no daemons/possessed anything. Ashen circle are still good.

 

 

 

Can they still be effective?

[defl0]

Yes. They can totally be effective. The core Word Bearer Rules are solid and in general there are a lot of units in the game run that are awesome and don't stack with legion rules. 

 

That said, to me, it's the daemons that are super fun about word bearers. The tactics you can do with summoning are totally crazy fun. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

i disagree. The core rules of word bearers are kinda meh. Forced to sweep in return for rerolling 1's and roll extra dice choose lowest? In addition to further unit taxes.

 

I'd rather have Stubborn for generic legions if I'm not making use of things like Tainted Weapons, Burning Lore, Gal Vorbak or Daemons. Ashen Circle aren't really worth it.

[defl0]

Sweeping advance and leadership are important rules in 30k. And word bearers get a big boost to both. 

 

Plus, their relic is really quite good at smashing death stars.

 

That said. You re definitely giving up A LOT by ignoring psychic powers and daemons. 

 

But you can definitely build strong lists around units with chaplains. 

 

My point was though that if you run a bunch or strong units like sicarians and such, ur going to be competitive. Unfortunately there are not rules for redemptionists or other such rabble... 

[depthcharge12]

Sweeping advance and leadership are important rules in 30k. And word bearers get a big boost to both. 

 

Plus, their relic is really quite good at smashing death stars.

 

That said. You re definitely giving up A LOT by ignoring psychic powers and daemons. 

 

But you can definitely build strong lists around units with chaplains. 

 

My point was though that if you run a bunch or strong units like sicarians and such, ur going to be competitive. Unfortunately there are not rules for redemptionists or other such rabble...

 

I made a theoryhammer 2000 point list over in the heresy list action if you want to take a peek and criticize :P

 

I'm doing the unthinkable and running two 15 man assault squads, whom I think can do pretty well if using enough LoS blocking terrain. I have a diabolist in one of them with dark channeling and he has burning lore on the biomancy table. Not to mention a void shield harness.

 

Burning Lore word bearers actually do quite well since you automatically get smite for 4 shots at BS5 for AP2 - plus you will usually get some sort of buff to either the squad or the IC with BL.

 

I'm running the quasi-mandatory chaplain in a squad of Gal Vorbak since I think his rerolls in the first round of combat are super useful to fish for hits before rending. I'll also slap on some AA and stick him out in front of the squad to soak up some damage since they are a majority toughness 5 unit.

[defl0]

So I've been doing a lot of thinking on Word Bearers, largely because they basically caused the heresy. and that speaks to me. 

 

But after a lot of research i don't see a lot of tactics being talked about with these guys. 

 

So some truths:

 

1. Lorgar with invisibility in a spartan with telepathy and vor galbak or termies = Mega strong mega expensive. 
2. Erebus, because he's great and fills in your requirements. And he's better with biomancy than telepathy
3. The ROW is ok. Not great. With Erebus I would forgo it. 
4. Val Gorbak should be kept cheap. maybe AA on the vet and a PF
5. No need to take diabolist on anyone but Erebus. 
6. I can't think of a reason to ever take a tainted weapon other than fluff. 
7. Ashen circle should always take power axes, and 1 axe rake.
8. Psychic power work really well with large units. So think big with high rates of fire.  

Tactics:

• Counter Assault: Play for the end game. Word Bearers can summon daemons and bolster their ranks through out the game. Consider the option of just shelling up with super resilient units, with long range and forcing the enemy to come to you. I'm looking at you 9 predators, 9 medusa, 3 scorpius, or 3 sicarians. Dreads of all type with with this model too, so do rapiers. 
• Daemons. How far do you go? Be'lakor, lord of change or fateweaver are all strong. Plus you can take a flying daemon prince in you hvy slot. This pushes the play style towards death stars and point denial. The other solid option is a group of tzeentch heralds. I also like hounds, and nurgle soul grinders. In general i would start with horrors as troops and summon from there, most people like daemonettes, in 30k i kinds like blood letters. The portaglyph can be strong as well. In some ways, i would actually build your daemon force first and fit in your word bearers after. 4 lvl 3 heralds in 2 units of 11 horrors is only 600 pts and gives you 16 warp dice + erebus is good for 3 or 4 summon tries a turn plus a power or 2 for erebus. 
• Synergy: There are a couple points of synergy between these lists. The grimoire can buff daemon units with invul saves like vol gorbak or units that rolled a 6 and are now daemons. Diabolists are also daemons. In addition you can share warp charges, so something like a div librarian can actually be very useful at buffing both armies. Daemons are strong at taking out infantry in hth. Word Bearers are good at tar pitting, with all their fearlessness and LD buffs. Word bearers can also tank hunt well, which is a weakness for daemons. In general, in a mixed list, I would take all anti tank options with word bearers, and ways to make units tar pits. Then let the daemons clean up the infantry. 
• Deepstrike: Note how much deep strike this army has in it's special units. They get better the more accurate those deep strikers are too. Makes me think the orbital assault doctrine is really quite good for them. So think about putting a tac squad in a pod with a nuncio vox that comes in first turn (not sure if this works with daemons, but by RAW it should). Plus rapiers in drop pods are pretty good as well. Plus all the deeps strike from deamons. If you can get pluses or re rolls to your reserve rolls, it could be viable. 
• In your face: I think in 30 you could play hard core daemon assault too. Units like hounds with scout and karnath scouting khorne heralds, and slaanesh cav could be a scary option as well when combined with drop pods or with scouting land raiders or spartans. 
• Big units are really hard to get across the board. The only options you have are walk, spartans, Kyberus, or fliers. All of which are really expensive. If you do go the route of the spartan you can grab a vigilator. Odd choice but you are basically getting the enemy a turn earlier. Phobos is interesting fro scout too if you are not planning on assaulting out of it. 

 

There are are a couple other like crazy things like resilient lists where everyone is basically fearless and have FNP and then you go for enfeeble and try to do synergy with forge lords and destroyer squads. Or go flamer, hvy rate of fire and template heavy and take lots of div and go for misfortune. Another interesting one is go daemon with fliers and bring the word bears in with fliers. It could be an interesting angel's of wrath list.  

 

Any other interesting synergies or tactics? 

[Hesh Kadesh]

you cannot summon daemons. You can only get them as allies, not seen anything sllowing them to summon daemons and red book IIRac stops it.

 

Gal Vorbak do really well with Power Mauls; s7 rending charges rip through IC's and dreadnoughts. Throw Chaplain in for hatred rerolls.

[defl0]

Oh whoops. I meant the daemons summon daemons. Erebus is all biomancy. Lorgar is telepathy. Daemons is maelfic in most situations. 

 

Good call on the Gal Vorbak. hadn't thought about about mauls. 

Edited April 10, 2015 by defl0

[Hesh Kadesh]

Don't even think daemons can summon either.

[bob sprocket]

Why can't daemons summon? Yes, astartes can't get demonology powers, but daemons are specifically allowed to generate them according to codex daemons (+FAQs).

[simison]

Last I checked, no psyker can cast any blessings while in a transport. So no Invisible Spartan with Lorgar for you.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Last I checked, no psyker can cast any blessings while in a transport. So no Invisible Spartan with Lorgar for you.

That's why you take Be'lakor.

[ThatOneMarshal]

So how does everyone feel about the new units gained in temptest? The two new special characters seem nice especially goeth who follows is a dark apostle and master if the legion meaning that you don't need Erebus as much. Though he doesn't allow daemon allies and he only has blade saves for body guard.The Mara Ghal looks interesting though it's even more expensive now. The imperial militia with warp cult seems interesting and could add bodies easily. Samus doesn't seem all that great though he adds some nice things to the table. Lorgar got toned down since no invisibility but he gets divination which means he can become a combat beast with precognition. I think he also gains malefic? I don't know about ashen circle as troops though sounds fun but I don't know if they are good at all.

 

Seems like some fun things to look at.

[1ncarnadine]

So how does everyone feel about the new units gained in temptest? The two new special characters seem nice especially goeth who follows is a dark apostle and master if the legion meaning that you don't need Erebus as much. Though he doesn't allow daemon allies and he only has blade saves for body guard.The Mara Ghal looks interesting though it's even more expensive now. The imperial militia with warp cult seems interesting and could add bodies easily. Samus doesn't seem all that great though he adds some nice things to the table. Lorgar got toned down since no invisibility but he gets divination which means he can become a combat beast with precognition. I think he also gains malefic? I don't know about ashen circle as troops though sounds fun but I don't know if they are good at all.

 

Seems like some fun things to look at.

 

Zardu Layak actually does allow Daemon Allies according to his Binder of Souls rule. His own profile isn't that impressive but his two Blade Slaves are monstrous, even if there are only two of them. It's a strange unit, that's for sure. His buff to Dark Channeling could be pretty cool, and giving it to Ashen Circle really helps the unit not feel so overcosted. The higher chance for Daemon means you could get the equivalent of combat shields for the whole squad for 25 points. Not bad. +1S makes all their attacks effectively S6, which would be cool if you could reliably combine it with a Forge Lord w/ rad grenades. But we can't. And Zealot is just always good for an assault unit to have. Any option is great for the 25 points, and is probably how you should always run Ashen Circle if you want to use them at all. 

Warning: Zardu must be your WL for Ashen Circle w/ channeling and doesn't have Jealous Command, and you still need a Centurion/Chaplain on top of him to satisfy Charismatic Leadership. He only counts as a Diabolist otherwise.

 

Samus is kind of meh. Bad save and no immunity to instant death means a Praetor with the auto-6 array could run up and just slay him pretty easily. 

 

Mhara Gal also, the huge point increase for the limited special rules they added (blind to the combi-bolter? whoop whoop...) means that it's a huge risk at AV13 and 3HP. It was already that way, but for a small further investment you could just have a Knight or something. Or if they add the Gallant to Questoris lists, I think you could actually run an aspirant Gallant for less than the Mhara Gal. Ew. It can walk through walls though, for potentially hilarious Zone Mortalis games. Have this because it's an awesome model, not because it's a smart choice to game with. Special scenarios/house rule games maybe.

 

Pretty sure Lorgar does have Malefic access, they're available to him, Zardu, and ML2 WB Librarians. Everyone except Zardu is at risk to Perils due to not being a Daemon though.

 

The last character addition, Hol Beloth, is... ok. Weak warlord trait, a one-use army-wide WS buff (when your specialist assault units, the Circle and Gal Vorbak, already have WS5...), but pseudo-EW and lots of potential Instant Death back between a tainted weapon and a MC fist. 

[dark_red]

My books not here yet :(

What's the deal with the blade slaves, much of a boost over the standard gal vorbak??

[ChainMachete]

My books not here yet

What's the deal with the blade slaves, much of a boost over the standard gal vorbak??

 

The key problem with the blade slaves is that you're limited to only having two of them and you can only take them if you take Zardu Layak. And if Zardu dies, they go mental and attack the nearest infantry or monstrous creatures (friend or foe). So there's not really enough of them to form an effective bodyguard for Zardu.

 

There's nothing stopping you from attaching other independent characters to the Blade Slaves or attaching Zardu to a different unit, but the Blades Slaves are just infantry so you can't have them join another unit alongside Zardu. I think the best option is to put Zardu with some proper Gal Vorbak or big infantry unit and run the Blade Slaves separately, perhaps as a distraction or counter-assault unit. Or not bother with the Blade Slaves at all and just take Zardu.

 

The Blade Slaves are 100 points for the pair and are better than Gal Vorbak against everything other than vehicles or high toughness monstrous creatures. No rending but their AP3 blades are specialist weapons and on a to wound roll of 5-6 become AP2 and cause 2 wounds. They have daemon, rage, it will not die and the Legiones Astartes special rules. But unlike the Gal Vorbak, no fleet, deep strike or stubborn. Stat line is the same as a Gal Vorbak Dark Martyr, bur with +1 S and -1 Ld. They also some with power armour and plasma pistols.

[ChainMachete]

 

The last character addition, Hol Beloth, is... ok. Weak warlord trait, a one-use army-wide WS buff (when your specialist assault units, the Circle and Gal Vorbak, already have WS5...), but pseudo-EW and lots of potential Instant Death back between a tainted weapon and a MC fist. 

 

Hol Beloth's Exhortation of Battle special rule, which lets him increase the army's WS to 5 only works on models with the Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers) sepecial rule. So even if the Gal Vorbak didn't already have WS5, it still wouldn't work on them.

 

I think he would work really well in infanty heavy lists - tacticals, terminators, etc. And hoards of crazed infantry charging at the enemy is really fluffy for Word Bearers, though probably not very tactically sound.

[depthcharge12]

I think they're pretty boss as a threesome. You will need to give them a transport though, either a dreadclaw, an Anvillus, or a land raider.

 

Use Zardu with Malefic daemonology and hope for cursed ground or whatever other buffs you can get. Summoning daemons isn't a bad idea either.

 

I'd almost say to run them against other legion specific beatsticks. The AP2 two wounds sounds like it was meant to kill the multi wound termies we've been seeing. Plasma pistol is pretty great plus the oft overlooked fear rule that they cause. Maybe stick a geared up chaplain with the squad to tank hits and let them reroll their hits...also you can give him burning lore soooooo...buffs ahoy!!! :D

[1ncarnadine]

 

 

The last character addition, Hol Beloth, is... ok. Weak warlord trait, a one-use army-wide WS buff (when your specialist assault units, the Circle and Gal Vorbak, already have WS5...), but pseudo-EW and lots of potential Instant Death back between a tainted weapon and a MC fist. 

 

Hol Beloth's Exhortation of Battle special rule, which lets him increase the army's WS to 5 only works on models with the Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers) sepecial rule. So even if the Gal Vorbak didn't already have WS5, it still wouldn't work on them.

 

I think he would work really well in infanty heavy lists - tacticals, terminators, etc. And hoards of crazed infantry charging at the enemy is really fluffy for Word Bearers, though probably not very tactically sound.

 

 

I never actually noticed the Gal Vorbak don't have the Legiones Astartes (WB) rule. But you know what? The Blade-Slaves have it, which is curious considering their nature. I wonder if that's just a long-standing accidental omission or if it's intentional, as it's missing from the entries in Massacre, the red book and Tempest. On the one hand it seems obvious that they shouldn't have it if it's been missing for three books. On the other... I could totally see FW accidentally leaving it out in Massacre and then just C&P'ing the page for two more books without catching the mistake.

 

Decent time to bring up the Militia/Cults list as allies. For the low cost of 185 points we can get a 51-man (including force commander) blob-wave of WS2 T3 zealot now. If you upgrade with the Blade & Fury Provenance as your 2nd PoW that blob gets cheap access to +1 attack too... And you can take a Leman Russ squadron or non-LoW Malcador on top if you really want to. Or another 50-man blob? We can finally force people to play Rotor Cannons

 

Edit: More Blade-Slaves stuff! Zardu cannot split from them as long as any Blade-Slaves remain alive, but yeah I think you can add other characters to the unit. And also the extra wounds they deal are saved against separately. The wording is "each unsaved wound  inflicts two wounds each (any saves must be taken against these wounds separately)." So I'm not so sure about trying to take on Firedrakes with the Zardubros. Maybe all the 2+ save 1-wound Ultramarine special units, although they also all have power weapons.

Edited May 29, 2015 by LetsYouDown

[Hesh Kadesh]

For fun with that blob, take Angels Fury and put a JP FL with Rad Nades with them. zealot s4 h and run. If you can get power axes in that unit, don't forget to take the relic for no invuln.

[1ncarnadine]

For fun with that blob, take Angels Fury and put a JP FL with Rad Nades with them. zealot s4 h and run. If you can get power axes in that unit, don't forget to take the relic for no invuln.

 

You're a monster. Can't get axes in a Levy unit except on the attached Cult Force Commander and Forge Lord though. You can exchange their crap auxilia rifles for auxilia pistols for free though, giving them the CCW/pistol attack bonus plus the +1A for Blade and Fury, for 3A base... 200 attacks on the charge with 50 bodies and Zealot, for a 125 point unit (before adding in the Angel's Wrath FL for -1T and Hit & Run ). 

 

I forgot to mention that when you take the Cult Horde Provenance, the Force Commander is automatically upgraded to a Cult Demagogue for free and has Preferred Enemy (Loyalist). 

 

And the Disposable rule means your opponent gets no VPs for killing the cultists, even First Blood. Wow. I need to figure out what I'm going to make 101 cultist figures with...

Edited May 29, 2015 by LetsYouDown

[depthcharge12]

Hmm so the wounds can hurt separate models then? Seems a bit odd, though it would still hurt multi wound models all the same.

 

 

Just noticed that Zardu has zealot, so no need for chaplain. However, does Zardu lose IC when joined by the blade slaves? They join him but it doesn't say he can't join another unit with them? I guess I'm grasping at straws here but it would be interesting to put the three of them in a larger unit.

 

So here's what I'm thinking:

 

"The Heavens Wept Blood and Fire"

2000 points

 

HQ

Zardu 275

+ Blade slaves

 

Centurion 105

+ AA, combat shield, power axe, burning lore

 

 

Troops

10 Ashen circle 340

+ 4 power axes, sgt w/AA/1 phosphex bomb, dark channeling

 

10 Ashen circle 340

+ 4 power axes, sgt w/AA/1 phosphex bomb, dark channeling

 

 

Fast Attack

3 Legion Attack bikes 135

+ 3 auto cannons

 

Anvillus drop pod 100

 

 

Heavy Support

Sicaran 175

+ Lascannons

 

Sicaran 175

+ Lascannons

 

Daemon allied detachment

HQ

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage 275

Troops

8 Bloodletters 80

 

 

This list is light on actual model count but can pack a punch - it even has a D weapon (D thirster) at 2000 points! The plan would be to give Zardu the malefic powers and the centurion the biomancy powers. The drop pod can come in first turn and Zardu can immediately start summoning other daemon units next to the enemy and hopefully using cursed earth if he gets the power, unless he can't summon within the pod (I am not super familiar with that rule). The centurion is there to tank hits for the Zardustar and give biomancy buffs when the unit enevitably charges the second turn.

 

The Bloodletters are there to eat marines though they'll likely die to bolter fire and such, but hey, not bad for 80 points.

 

The thirster with his D axe and the two buffed ashen circle units are meant to fly up the field, though the AC can deep strike and chuck templates all day like Kanye West :P the D thirster will fly and hopefully evade most shots directed at him till he can bury his hatchet into something nice like a Spartan, super heavy, or what have you.

 

The Sicarans are there for medium tank threats or for multi role usage, but you guys know that by now. I feel that the autocannon bikes will be sleeper hits as they gain the WB rules, are quite decent in cc due to extra ccws and attacks, and have T5. The autocannons can harass anything they feel like and are meant to be low on the radar, but do quite well.

 

What are your thoughts for this with all the new WB tactics?

[depthcharge12]

Or how about a Hol Beloth list? I can imagine him with either a pride of the legion or assault squad spam to be excellent. Either way you'll have lots of squads with WS5 for a turn.

 

Mmmh 15 man assault squads with 3+s to hit. For terminators, that's just gravy.

 

Can Beloth tank a Destroyer hit with his first Ward save? Lol it says any that could cause instant death.

[1ncarnadine]

Hmm so the wounds can hurt separate models then? Seems a bit odd, though it would still hurt multi wound models all the same.

 

 

Just noticed that Zardu has zealot, so no need for chaplain. However, does Zardu lose IC when joined by the blade slaves? They join him but it doesn't say he can't join another unit with them? I guess I'm grasping at straws here but it would be interesting to put the three of them in a larger unit.

 

What are your thoughts for this with all the new WB tactics?

 

Zardu's Blade Slaves option says they form a "single HQ unit" that Zardu may not leave, so I'm not sure about him joining other units with the Slaves. It sure would be evil to dump him in with even more Gal Vorbak. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure he can't, so my inclination is to take Zardu alone and attach him to a unit where Zealot and maybe his Panoply of Flame buff do a little more good. Since he's probably going to be released as a set with the Blade Slaves, I'll likely end up using them as extra Gal Vorbak models most of the time.

 

Also even though he has Zealot, he only counts as a Diabolist, not a Chaplain. So the Charismatic Leadership tax still has to be paid with a secondary base Centurion/Chaplain (and it might as well always be a Chaplain). All the WB rules explicitly call out what consuls they count as for purposes of Charismatic Leadership/Rites of War now, which is nice.

 

I'm thinking of a similar list though, with Zardu and Ashen Circle troops but with the 101-body militia ally horde instead of the Daemons. Zardu summons Daemon pals anyway. With Zardu, a Chaplain, the Ashen Circle (still maybe overcosted?), and the militia you get about 700 points of wiggle room when aiming for 2k points. Some ideas:

 

1) You could run HK's Angel's Wrath idea and take a Forge Lord as the 3rd HQ, downgrade the Chaplain to a basic Centurion with a jump pack just to confer Hit & Run to the second Levy blob (they already have Zealot), but then you need a Storm Eagle or something for Zardu. Leaves you maybe 400 pts for whatever else. Maybe a unit for Zardu to chill with in the Storm Eagle (and also confer Zealot to? Gal Vorbak? Exchange an Ashen Circle squad for one of cheap dark channeled Despoiler tacs?) and then Lightning/Fire Raptor support?

 

2) The saturation of bodies can hide or keep attention off of other stuff on the ground. 700 points of tanks? Elite infantry (terminators/Gal Vorbak)? It might even be worth it to just take two bare tac squads behind the cultists to save points elsewhere, instead of taking the Ashen Circle as troops. Saves you some 350+ points that can be spent elsewhere. This saving alone can buy you a Typhon or 10 Gal Vorbak....

 

Also yes, pretty sure Hol can tank a D hit, if you really need him to.

[Hesh Kadesh]

scratch

Edited May 29, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh