[HH1.0] Word Bearer's Tactics

[depthcharge12]

 

Hmm so the wounds can hurt separate models then? Seems a bit odd, though it would still hurt multi wound models all the same.

 

 

Just noticed that Zardu has zealot, so no need for chaplain. However, does Zardu lose IC when joined by the blade slaves? They join him but it doesn't say he can't join another unit with them? I guess I'm grasping at straws here but it would be interesting to put the three of them in a larger unit. 

• What are your thoughts for this with all the new WB tactics?

 Zardu's Blade Slaves option says they form a "single HQ unit" that Zardu may not leave, so I'm not sure about him joining other units with the Slaves. It sure would be evil to dump him in with even more Gal Vorbak. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure he can't, so my inclination is to take Zardu alone and attach him to a unit where Zealot and maybe his Panoply of Flame buff do a little more good. Since he's probably going to be released as a set with the Blade Slaves, I'll likely end up using them as extra Gal Vorbak models most of the time. Also even though he has Zealot, he only counts as a Diabolist, not a Chaplain. So the Charismatic Leadership tax still has to be paid with a secondary base Centurion/Chaplain (and it might as well always be a Chaplain). All the WB rules explicitly call out what consuls they count as for purposes of Charismatic Leadership/Rites of War now, which is nice. I'm thinking of a similar list though, with Zardu and Ashen Circle troops but with the 101-body militia ally horde instead of the Daemons. Zardu summons Daemon pals anyway. With Zardu, a Chaplain, the Ashen Circle (still maybe overcosted?), and the militia you get about 700 points of wiggle room when aiming for 2k points. Some ideas: 1) You could run HK's Angel's Wrath idea and take a Forge Lord as the 3rd HQ, downgrade the Chaplain to a basic Centurion with a jump pack just to confer Hit & Run to the second Levy blob (they already have Zealot), but then you need a Storm Eagle or something for Zardu. Leaves you maybe 400 pts for whatever else. Maybe a unit for Zardu to chill with in the Storm Eagle (and also confer Zealot to? Gal Vorbak? Exchange an Ashen Circle squad for one of cheap dark channeled Despoiler tacs?) and then Lightning/Fire Raptor support? 2) The saturation of bodies can hide or keep attention off of other stuff on the ground. 700 points of tanks? Elite infantry (terminators/Gal Vorbak)? It might even be worth it to just take two bare tac squads behind the cultists to save points elsewhere, instead of taking the Ashen Circle as troops. Saves you some 350+ points that can be spent elsewhere. This saving alone can buy you a Typhon or 10 Gal Vorbak.... Also yes, pretty sure Hol can tank a D hit, if you really need him to.

My idea was to put the mandatory centurion/chaplain with the squad, but you can save the points and just use a centurion for the charismatic leadership.

 

Yeah the Ashen circle are expensive :/ but still have rule of cool. As much fun as it would be to run big tactical squad for WBs, they don't get any buffs really till they're in cc.

 

I think a small thing to consider would be the ability to stick Zardu with his slaves into a transport. If you were to try and stick him into a minimum sized Gal Vorbak squad, they'd only fit in a Spartan, Kharybadis, or storm eagle, all which are pretty points heavy or have arrival issues (not the Spartan though).

 

Though the militia may be great as wound absorbers, I've still yet to be convinced that they'd do anything in combat worthwhile.

[1ncarnadine]

 

My idea was to put the mandatory centurion/chaplain with the squad, but you can save the points and just use a centurion for the charismatic leadership.

 

Yeah the Ashen circle are expensive :/ but still have rule of cool. As much fun as it would be to run big tactical squad for WBs, they don't get any buffs really till they're in cc.

 

I think a small thing to consider would be the ability to stick Zardu with his slaves into a transport. If you were to try and stick him into a minimum sized Gal Vorbak squad, they'd only fit in a Spartan, Kharybadis, or storm eagle, all which are pretty points heavy or have arrival issues (not the Spartan though).

 

Though the militia may be great as wound absorbers, I've still yet to be convinced that they'd do anything in combat worthwhile.

 

 

I'm not totally convinced on the militia either, but the way Tempest describes the Word Bearers following up on massive cultist assaults that exhaust the enemy's ammunition has me temporarily inspired  I'm kind of loving the idea of a 50-wound unbreakable Zealot unit that costs less than a barebones 10-man tactical squad. I also didn't notice but the Cult Horde Provenance makes it so your infantry can only snap shot... well, not a problem with BS2 pistols anyway.

 

More bad ideas: Taking gene-crafted with Cult Horde makes them S4/I4 instead of giving +1A, meaning that any cultists that get through get to attack at the same time as any basic marines you get into. Even 20 of them on the charge (assuming you've lost 60% to shooting) is still 60 S4 attacks re-rolling to-hits in the first round and if the Demagogue is with them, rerolling 1s to hit and wound with PE. Plus 20 snap shots at BS1 that do almost nothing, but who knows. Add melta bombs to the Demagogue and/or to a WB consul you attach. 

 

The point is, it's a really cheap option that your opponent can't actually ignore. A lot of Legion lists are so focused on eliminating MEQ and tanks, so the switch-up in making an opponent deal with a horde at the same time as MEQ/Armour back-up has me thinking. Plus the board control of two 50-man units is pretty crazy to think about. 

[depthcharge12]

Anyone have any good ideas for daemon allies to take? Would you even be able to take one of the two new bloodthirsters even though they're under the Daemonkin rules?

[1ncarnadine]

Anyone have any good ideas for daemon allies to take? Would you even be able to take one of the two new bloodthirsters even though they're under the Daemonkin rules?

 

Looking at the datasheets from WD60, they're each accessible to Codex: Chaos Daemons as HQ choices that can take up to 50 pts of Daemonic Rewards. So, yes :D 

[depthcharge12]

I think Hol Beloth is a bit of a sleeper hit in close combat. When I've done test runs of him against another praetor for 160 points, he'll beat them 4 out of 5 times. He usually tanks the one or two hits that go through and proceeds to ID the enemy praetor with his fist.

[Scribe]

Anyone have any good ideas for daemon allies to take? Would you even be able to take one of the two new bloodthirsters even though they're under the Daemonkin rules?

 

I've never cheesed out my Daemon allies, but have found a GUO, or Herald of Khorne on Jugger in Flesh Hounds are solid as an HQ, while my goto troops are a couple blobs of Plague Bearers.

 

Thats generally sufficient in terms of bang for my buck, to put some extra points into the WB side of the list, and I've yet to actually taste defeat in 30K. :D

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

What do you guys think of a full Gal Vorbak squad with Lorgar and Layak+slaves attached with Lorgar running Levitation and Cursed Earth? My plan is to have them act as both a fast deathstar and a summoning locus. Edited June 1, 2015 by Prodigal Son of Magnus

[Hesh Kadesh]

It will kill anything nearly aisde from equal power units like Night Raptors with Glaives and Curze or Firedrakes and Vulkan.

[ChainMachete]

What do you guys think of a full Gal Vorbak squad with Lorgar and Layak+slaves attached with Lorgar running Levitation and Cursed Earth? My plan is to have them act as both a fast deathstar and a summoning locus.

 

Not convinced that Layak with his slaves still act as an independent character. Layak has this special rule, but the slaves don't. And independent character isn't one of those special rules that pass on to the unit. But Lorgar, Layak & 10 Gal Vorbak is still very strong.

 

Problem with Cursed Earth on Lorgar is that you have to choose between a 67% success rate or a 17%+ chance of getting a perils for Lorgar. But you might get Cursed Earth in your rolls for Layak.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

What do you guys think of a full Gal Vorbak squad with Lorgar and Layak+slaves attached with Lorgar running Levitation and Cursed Earth? My plan is to have them act as both a fast deathstar and a summoning locus.

 

 

Not convinced that Layak with his slaves still act as an independent character. Layak has this special rule, but the slaves don't. And independent character isn't one of those special rules that pass on to the unit. But Lorgar, Layak & 10 Gal Vorbak is still very strong.

 

Problem with Cursed Earth on Lorgar is that you have to choose between a 67% success rate or a 17%+ chance of getting a perils for Lorgar. But you might get Cursed Earth in your rolls for Layak.

I would normally agree that Layak would form his own unit with the slaves if it wasn't for the wording of the upgrade. It states that they become apart of Layak, which makes me think of them more like Combat Familiars. My plan for Malefic is to roll Layak first and see if he gets Cursed Earth or Incursion. If he gets both Lorgar rolls a different table, if he gets 1 Lorgar takes the other and if he gets none Lorgar takes Cursed Earth.

[1ncarnadine]

 

I would normally agree that Layak would form his own unit with the slaves if it wasn't for the wording of the upgrade. It states that they become apart of Layak, which makes me think of them more like Combat Familiars. My plan for Malefic is to roll Layak first and see if he gets Cursed Earth or Incursion. If he gets both Lorgar rolls a different table, if he gets 1 Lorgar takes the other and if he gets none Lorgar takes Cursed Earth.

 

 

I'm pretty sure he does form his own unit and can't join Lorgar's levitation train in this case. They're worded as a command squad, not as familiars. Here's the wording on the upgrade if anyone doesn't have access to Tempest:

"Zardu Layak may be accompanied by his Anakatis Kul Blade-slaves instead of a conventional Command squad. 

They form a single HQ unit with him and do not take up a separate HQ choice. If this is done, Zardu Layak may not split from this unit while any Blade-slaves remain alive."

[ChainMachete]

 

I would normally agree that Layak would form his own unit with the slaves if it wasn't for the wording of the upgrade. It states that they become apart of Layak, which makes me think of them more like Combat Familiars. My plan for Malefic is to roll Layak first and see if he gets Cursed Earth or Incursion. If he gets both Lorgar rolls a different table, if he gets 1 Lorgar takes the other and if he gets none Lorgar takes Cursed Earth.

 

I'd love it to work this way, but the rules for Layak say hey form a single HQ unit with him, not a single HQ model or independent character with him.  And the rules for what happens if Layak dies are confusing if the Blade Slaves have joined another unit (or if another independent character joins the Blade Slaves which is definitely allowed). I think the intention is that the Blade Slaves work like a kind of legion command squad that Layak can't leave until it's members are dead. A command squad can't join another unit just because it's associated praetor also joins that unit. Thinking of them as some sort of familiar also doesn't make sense because familiars don't have their own stat line - a familiar may have it's own model, but that's just a visual references, it's really just another piece of wargear that can just as easily be modeled on to the same base as it's owner.

 

Personally, I wouldn't want to try to play it any other way until Forgeworld issue a ruling or FAQ to say otherwise.

[Scribe]

Yeah I agree from the wording that he + slaves is a unit, not able to join or leave (until they die I guess).

[depthcharge12]

For Malefic, Lorgar will have a better chance of not peril-ing because he manifests on a 3+, so that should help him from rolling doubles a bit. Unless I'm completely wrong lol

 

Zardu doesn't suffer from doubles as he's a daemon, so make use of that :)

[ChainMachete]

I've run some stats on Lorgar Transfigured:

 

Dice    WC1        WC2        WC3         Perils (Malefic)    Perils (Other)
1          66.67%    -                -            -                           -
2          88.89%    44.44%    -              16.67%                2.78%
3          96.30%    74.07%    29.63%    44.44%                7.41%
4          98.77%    88.89%    59.26%    72.22%                13.19%
5          99.59%    95.47%    79.01%    90.74%                19.62%
6          88.86%    98.22%    89.99%    98.46%                26.32%
7          99.95%    99.31%    95.47%    100%                   33.02%
8          99.98%    99.74%    98.03%    100%                   39.53%

 

Compared to Layak:

 

Dice    WC1         WC2         WC3        Perils
1          50%         -             -              -
2          75%         25%        -             2.78%
3          87.5%      50%        12.5%      7.41%
4          93.75%    68.75%    31.25%    13.19%
5          96.88%    81.25%    50%        19.62%
6          98.44%    89.06%    65.63%    26.32%
7          99.22%    93.75%    77.34%    33.02%
8          99.61%    96.48%    85.55%    39.53%

 

And Layak gets to reroll one failed psychic test per game.

 

So I really don't think its safe to use Lorgar for anything other than the 1 Warp Charge Malefic powers. So either Cursed Earth or perhaps Sacrifice. Sacrifice could be fun - for 1WC/turn you'll probably create 4 Heralds for the cost of 4 wounds on your Gal Vorbak. And there's nothing stopping those Heralds from joining your Gal Vorbak the turn after they're summoned.

 

But for the 3 Warp Charge Malefic powers, using Lorgar is suicidal, so I'd leave those to Layak.

[depthcharge12]

Thanks for that table man! And since he can choose across multiple tables, I'd recommend just grabbing cursed earth.

 

However, a smarter decision would just be to roll for Layak first and see if he gets it. I wouldn't quite mind putting wounds on Lorgar because he can just regenerate with It Will Not Die right?

[Scribe]

Yes.

[Scribe]

Note: Does Lorgar even get Malific? I see where Diabolists do, and Layak, but thats it?

[Hesh Kadesh]

yes, I think it is in the battles in the AoD section to keep it obvious.

[Scribe]

Ah there it is, right after the part I referenced (well done eyes...you've failed me for the last time!)

[Plaguecaster]

Any advice on breacher squads in a WB? force after seeing the awesome breacher pics in tempest I am highly tempted to go a breacher heavy force maybe with some Slaanesh daemons especially since my normal CSM army has gotten quite crap Edited June 20, 2015 by teutonicavenger

[Scribe]

I'm not seeing anything thats going to make Breachers suddenly amazing with WB traits. You can give them a buff with Dark Channelling, but thats about it. I just use mine because I like them. :]

 

They do have LR as dedicated which can help if you like Land Raiders and are running The Dark Brethren.

[Plaguecaster]

Yeah whole reason I was tempted by HH Breacher squads look awesome  I would love converting a couple of daemonic breachers squads.

 

I was thinking of running a dark brethren ROW army based off the Osseous Throne chapter being solely infantry at the moment I am fascinated by the idea of two breacher squads with dark channeling (mainly for the rule of cool plus damonic conversions ) with a a couple of large daemonette units but unsure of what else I should have. I know I need both a centurion/ chaplain and a diabolist but apart from that don't know maybe some dreads or Gal vorbak????? Another question is with the whole centurion or chaplain tax we have if I take a centurion with one of the other consul upgrades does he still count as a centurion for the requirement??? 

 

Edit: Love your Avatar Scribe, I just love FW artwork for the Word bearers hopefully FW make a diabolist model

Edited June 21, 2015 by teutonicavenger

[Hesh Kadesh]

Per RAW, every Consult variant is a Centurion ,as Consul is a special rule ,not a Unit Entry. Obvious RAI/RACSD, it is no longer classed as a Centurion for purposes of this rule, otherwise there would be no need to clarify that a Chaplain also qualifies.

 

Remember that Breachers are (obviously) a CC unit, but mostly one which holds a line against AP3 or better armed models, against anything less, and you might as well attempt the kill before killed route, and take 2 CCW armed Tacticals or Assault Squads. I'd recommend taking Melta or Plasma, and throwing them at enemy Terminators, and running them 10 men in size. Run them in a Rhino, and put them on an obective turn 2 (12" flat out, 6" dismount, 6" move gets you there), double tap into enemy terminators or other medium assault units, then sacrifice the unit until you can smash into them with Gal Vorbak or Dark Channeling Ashen Circle if you are running Layak.

 

If running Daemons, even better as you have other cheaper ultra good assault units, and your breachers will last longer as enemy units have better targets to aim for than your Breachers with Tacs.

[Scribe]

The easiest way to fit the ROW in is with special characters as both Erebus and then Zardu, as Erebus fills all 3 requirements (Master, Chaplain, and Diabolist) while Zardu fills Master and Diabolist.

 

I like my own Diabolist I'm writing up terrible fan fluff for so will avoid those guys where I can, but they are unarguably good. Erebus has always been a beast for me in games.

 

I had a few emails with FW on this, but I do think they said any Centurion counts. I'll see if I can find them.