[HH1.0] Iron Hands Tactics

[Teun135]

 

 

Any mileage putting orth in a proteus with additional pintle lascannon? I'm thinking, outflank it using HoG carrying a squad of breachers, heavy points investment though!

If you are using it as a tank rather than an assault transport, it's still much cheaper than a phobos, and hits harder. I actually am putting together a list around this... basically going to be 3x proteus landraiders in a squadron (with command tank) and a Cerebus, with orth and a few tactical squads. Don't know how effective it would be, but that's a lot of TL lascannon shots and AV14.

Sounds like a tough list! I was thinking of a breacher squad with flamers, so deploy when you need to tarpit and taunt the enemy into charging. I think a proteus suits the breachers well as they gain no benefit from the charge and also deny the enemy their additional attack. So deploy, shoot, over watch and then combat....with a breaching charge......

 

Hopefully hold the enemy in position for a counter assault.

 

 

Breachers would be cool too, but this is the list I am thinking of giving a run (if I can get enough land raiders to do it...)

 

 

+++ The Gorgon's Iron Fist (2500pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Cyber-familiar, Melta Bombs, Refractor Field]

····Consul [Primus Medicae]

 

Shadrak Meduson

····Master of the Legion [The Head of the Gorgon]

 

Spearhead-Centurion Castrmen Orth

 

+ Troops +

 

Legion Tactical Squad [9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla]

····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Melta Bombs]

 

Legion Tactical Squad [9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla]

····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Melta Bombs]

 

Legion Tactical Support Squad [4x Legion Space Marines, Melta Guns]

····Legion Land Raider Proteus [Armoured Ceramite, Armoured Encirclement, Auxiliary Drive, Blessed Autosimulacra, Explorator Augury Web, Multi-melta, Twin-linked Lascannon]

····Legion Sergeant [Combi-weapon, Melta Bombs]

 

+ Elites +

 

Techmarine Covenant

····Legion Techmarine

········Techmarine/Forgelord Options [Augury Scanner, Cyber-familiar, Rad Grenades]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Legion Land Raider Battle Squadron [Command Tank]

····Legion Land Raider Proteus [Armoured Ceramite, Armoured Encirclement, Auxiliary Drive, Blessed Autosimulacra, Multi-melta, Twin-linked Lascannon]

····Legion Land Raider Proteus [Armoured Ceramite, Armoured Encirclement, Auxiliary Drive, Blessed Autosimulacra, Multi-melta, Twin-linked Lascannon]

····Legion Land Raider Proteus [Armoured Ceramite, Armoured Encirclement, Auxiliary Drive, Blessed Autosimulacra, Multi-melta, Twin-linked Lascannon]

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [Loyalist, X: Iron Hands]

 

+ Lord of War +

 

Legion Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer [Armoured Encirclement]

····Legion Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer [Armoured Ceramite, Blessed Autosimulacra, Hunter-killer Missile, Lascannons, Multi-melta]

 

Comes out to 4 Proteus, 1 Cerebus, 20 Tac marines, 5 Support Marines, and attached characters. Very light on the scoring units... could probably drop a character to put in a 3rd tactical squad if I really need to.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Slipstreams
Text Readability

[Memento Of Prospero]

Not sure how you plan on grabing objectives as the squadron will severely limit your ability to spread out due to having to maintain coherency.

 

It will also turn them into massive fire magnets that while durable, dont hold upto focus fire, with extra damage spilling over to the other tanks of the formation.

 

What's the point of Meduson in this list? Where are the characters going? With the 5 man support?

[Baluc]

I have to agree with Wolf Pack, I think the multiple land raider kind of fails the eye test here. They aren't actually that difficult to kill, especially in a sqd. Ignoring the fact that you have nothing to dislodge units in cover or even tanks in cover. If you want to do multiple LR I would suggest head of the gorgon, fill your compulsory troops with bodies in Raiders and move on. 

[Teun135]

I have to agree with Wolf Pack, I think the multiple land raider kind of fails the eye test here. They aren't actually that difficult to kill, especially in a sqd. Ignoring the fact that you have nothing to dislodge units in cover or even tanks in cover. If you want to do multiple LR I would suggest head of the gorgon, fill your compulsory troops with bodies in Raiders and move on. 

 

It all sounded good in my head... then I started adding up those LRs and realized how expensive they can get. I can drop the squadron and a few upgrades to add in a 3rd tactical squad, which is probably what I will do. Not being in a squadron should help free up their mobility. My original plan was to deploy the squads out of the LRs and have them creep up behind the wall of ceramite, but a few drop pods would wreck that plan, come to think of it. So better for them to remain in the LRs and drop the squadron.

Edited July 30, 2016 by FoxPhoenix135

[Teun135]

Not sure how you plan on grabing objectives as the squadron will severely limit your ability to spread out due to having to maintain coherency.

 

It will also turn them into massive fire magnets that while durable, dont hold upto focus fire, with extra damage spilling over to the other tanks of the formation.

 

What's the point of Meduson in this list? Where are the characters going? With the 5 man support?

 

Meduson is my Praetor. He has about the equivalent cost as any Praetor I'd run, after adding up their wargear, so I like to run him and have the option to use his special rule if I need it. He, the Techmarine, and the Primus Medicae, attach to the 5 man support squad with meltaguns. They snipe characters, not vehicles though. With the Cerebus and 4 x 3 TL lascannons, I think the regular anti-tank has been covered. They may pop a transport if needed but primarily they charge at squads with attached characters and try to ID them.

 

This is all theoretical so far. I run a similar list in 40k that I call my "superfriends" in which multiple ICs join a unit and split/rejoin as needed when opportunities present themselves. It works fairly well. But I realize that this is a different scene with a different meta so I will have to run some games and figure out what the meta for this game type is.

[Plaguecaster]

 

 

Not sure how you plan on grabing objectives as the squadron will severely limit your ability to spread out due to having to maintain coherency.

 

It will also turn them into massive fire magnets that while durable, dont hold upto focus fire, with extra damage spilling over to the other tanks of the formation.

 

What's the point of Meduson in this list? Where are the characters going? With the 5 man support?

Meduson is my Praetor. He has about the equivalent cost as any Praetor I'd run, after adding up their wargear, so I like to run him and have the option to use his special rule if I need it. He, the Techmarine, and the Primus Medicae, attach to the 5 man support squad with meltaguns. They snipe characters, not vehicles though. With the Cerebus and 4 x 3 TL lascannons, I think the regular anti-tank has been covered. They may pop a transport if needed but primarily they charge at squads with attached characters and try to ID them.

 

This is all theoretical so far. I run a similar list in 40k that I call my "superfriends" in which multiple ICs join a unit and split/rejoin as needed when opportunities present themselves. It works fairly well. But I realize that this is a different scene with a different meta so I will have to run some games and figure out what the meta for this game type is.

Wait..... tech marines can attach to units? I thought they couldn't

[Teun135]

 

 

Not sure how you plan on grabing objectives as the squadron will severely limit your ability to spread out due to having to maintain coherency.

 

It will also turn them into massive fire magnets that while durable, dont hold upto focus fire, with extra damage spilling over to the other tanks of the formation.

 

What's the point of Meduson in this list? Where are the characters going? With the 5 man support?

Meduson is my Praetor. He has about the equivalent cost as any Praetor I'd run, after adding up their wargear, so I like to run him and have the option to use his special rule if I need it. He, the Techmarine, and the Primus Medicae, attach to the 5 man support squad with meltaguns. They snipe characters, not vehicles though. With the Cerebus and 4 x 3 TL lascannons, I think the regular anti-tank has been covered. They may pop a transport if needed but primarily they charge at squads with attached characters and try to ID them.

 

This is all theoretical so far. I run a similar list in 40k that I call my "superfriends" in which multiple ICs join a unit and split/rejoin as needed when opportunities present themselves. It works fairly well. But I realize that this is a different scene with a different meta so I will have to run some games and figure out what the meta for this game type is.

Wait..... tech marines can attach to units? I thought they couldn't

 

Unless they differ from 40k techmarines... now I will have to double check. But in 40k they are ICs unless they have servitors accompanying them. Age of Darkness might be different though so I will double check on that.

 

EDIT: You are right, they are only Characters (not ICs) in the AoD list. Therefore I can't take a techmarine in a squad. However, some simple juggling (removing the Primus Medicae and adding an apothecary, while removing the techmarine and adding a Forge Lord) can achieve a similar effect. Just no VPs for casualties in Kill-point games :(

Edited July 30, 2016 by FoxPhoenix135

[Memento Of Prospero]

Today, in other Iron Hands news, Autek Mor as racked up his 4th primarch kill today with Mortarion. I must say, proteus are now a pretty much bread and butter pick at any points level for their new cost and options. 4 anti tank weapons on av AV 14 transport is no joke, the 3 I took today did a lot of work.

[Terminus]

I don't know about all that. A lascannon is not worth 30 points, I don't care what platform it's on. Barebones with a dozer and maybe with a pintle MM to keep them around ~200 points, I could see.

 

Doesn't really compare to budget Triaros or the Solar Auxilia demolishers, but I'm glad they're trying to inject some non-Spartab AV14 back into the game.

[Plaguecaster]

Today, in other Iron Hands news, Autek Mor as racked up his 4th primarch kill today with Mortarion. I must say, proteus are now a pretty much bread and butter pick at any points level for their new cost and options. 4 anti tank weapons on av AV 14 transport is no joke, the 3 I took today did a lot of work.

Wait is he that good??? how is he able to take down Primarchs

[Caillum]

I assume he didn't do it solo. Weaken the Primarch with heavy firepower, assault with Mor, and hit him with a S6 AP2 Paragon blade (and a S8 AP2 servo-arm). :)

 

Seriously, Autek Mor is an absolute tank. S5, T5, 2+/3++, Preferred Enemy (Infantry), Fearless, plus more!

[Charlo]

Autek Morr is the reason I almost went into the Iron 10th. Lordy he is insane.

 

Plus you get to have an extra two units with preferred enemy in your army - brutal.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I don't know about all that. A lascannon is not worth 30 points, I don't care what platform it's on. Barebones with a dozer and maybe with a pintle MM to keep them around ~200 points, I could see.

 

Doesn't really compare to budget Triaros or the Solar Auxilia demolishers, but I'm glad they're trying to inject some non-Spartab AV14 back into the game.

 

Considering the Proteus dropped 20 points, it's really a 10 point lascannon. And even if that were not the case, Increasing a 180 point transport's base fire power by 50% for 3 points is a steal. A 30 point twin-linked lascannon is not worth it on a landspeeder, but it is on a mobile bunker who is pretty durable. The increase in lascannons also allows you to tweak the rest of your units to become a bit more specialized in other areas. This is the second game with these changes and it is has had a significant impact in both games.

 

 

Today, in other Iron Hands news, Autek Mor as racked up his 4th primarch kill today with Mortarion. I must say, proteus are now a pretty much bread and butter pick at any points level for their new cost and options. 4 anti tank weapons on av AV 14 transport is no joke, the 3 I took today did a lot of work.

Wait is he that good??? how is he able to take down Primarchs

 

 

 

I assume he didn't do it solo. Weaken the Primarch with heavy firepower, assault with Mor, and hit him with a S6 AP2 Paragon blade (and a S8 AP2 servo-arm).

 

Seriously, Autek Mor is an absolute tank. S5, T5, 2+/3++, Preferred Enemy (Infantry), Fearless, plus more!

 

Autek Mor is no fool. He is ruthless and cunning ;)

 

Shot him up and weakened down to 2 wounds, Autek and his Gorgon bodyguard charged in for the kill. Autek dealt the killing blow ;)

 

 

Autek Morr is the reason I almost went into the Iron 10th. Lordy he is insane.

 

Plus you get to have an extra two units with preferred enemy in your army - brutal.

 

Preferred enemy : Flesh! (It's weak by the way)

[Flint13]

^Our Iron Hands player regularly uses Mor. 

 

He's no Scoria at offiing primarchs, but I've been pretty impressed the half dozen times I've seen him on the table. 

[Terminus]

"It dropped by 20 points so the upgrade is cheap" is strange logic. It dropped because even FW managed to notice how bad it is (presumably worse than even destroyers in their estimation!). Three of those lascannons nets you half of another land raider! But if it's working for you, go for it.

[Brofist]

Our league has been running them at 160 points. Most people still don't take them.

[Memento Of Prospero]

"It dropped by 20 points so the upgrade is cheap" is strange logic. It dropped because even FW managed to notice how bad it is (presumably worse than even destroyers in their estimation!). Three of those lascannons nets you half of another land raider! But if it's working for you, go for it.

 

Incoming wall of text, brace yourselves! TL;DR at the bottom

 

The "strange" logic is as follows. I am comparing what I used to get vs what I get now as cost efficiency. I shaved 40 points to get 4 more twin-linked lascannons in my 3k list. I have been using them for 2 years now and my Iron Hands don't need an assault ramp, I got spartans for that. They are great mobile walls to block line of sight and they are good on delivering troops where they need to be. It's 50 points cheaper than a standard landraider and you lose the ramp  and the amazing stopping power of a heavy bolter... Head of the Gorgon lets me use them as dedicated transports for just about anything, including units that excel in short ranged fire fights (plasma support squads, sniper vets for example) and they were worth the cost for me at the time. If I'd take a standard raider for them, I would be wasting that. So yeah, if you let me keep something I've been using and improve it with a 3rd lascannon for effecetively 10 points since you dropped it, it's a win in my book. I am simply comparing it. That is the context I am using them in. What's yours? What transports accessing to Iron Hands in a HotG RoW perform better under what conditions you find in your experience?

This bit sound like rubbish : "(presumably worse than even destroyers in their estimation!"... You got sources for that?  Nothing is worse than destroyers by a mile. I can name at least 10 models that I would rate worse than a Proteus in  a heartbeat. People didn't buy them because they cost almost just as much as a spartan but don't have the cool factor associated with it. And since everyone wants the cool toys first, (just like everyone gets a sicaran before legion predators for example, predator squadrons are a much better pick for the slot)) they get side tracked. The most common complaint is "Uh, I can't assault out of that, Can't have my terminators and primarch in that, it's useless...". Iron hands don't care about that.

 

Also... "Three of those lascannons nets you half of another land raider!" I don't get how that blanket statement has any relevant meaning whatsoever. Legion vets are cool because they have 2 attacks base. "Getting legion veterans nets you an extra half a tactical marine!" What's the point? The lascannon doesn't cost near half a landraider.

 

 

TL;DR

Other than a spartan which is best suited for assault focused units, you won't find a better dedicated transport for Iron Hands using Head of the Gorgon for your shooty units to ride in.

[Charlo]

And what is more baller than astartes jumping out of a landraider and pulping everything in sight?

[Memento Of Prospero]

And what is more baller than astartes jumping out of a landraider and pulping everything in sight?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i5xuGtrkZo

[Terminus]

 

Other than a spartan which is best suited for assault focused units, you won't find a better dedicated transport for Iron Hands using Head of the Gorgon for your shooty units to ride in.

 

A mediocre transport being the "best" option for a mediocre Rite of an unexceptional Legion doesn't exactly set my heart on fire.

 

Like I said, if it works for you, particularly in the confines of a very specific rite you want to use, then go for it.  Although with outflank on all your tanks, it would seem you only need basic transports since you're unloading your guys once you get there anyway. Each land raider could have instead bought another Veteran squad in a rhino AND a rhino for the original unit that was riding in the land raider. And there are of course better ways to deliver those units if you're willing to step out of the Rite, like 35 point fast rhinos or drop pods, so you can afford more shooty units. That's my personal logic. But again, working within the specific confines you established, if it's working for you, far be it from me to malign your success and experience. Land Raiders are a super iconic vehicle that have been long neglected by GW and FW both.

 

Regarding my comment on destroyers, FW left them unchaged when practically everything except Spartans went down in price. So my assumption is they think Destroyers were one of the few infantry units they priced correctly the first time around.

 

(disclaimer: there was no sarcasm in the preceding paragraph, I am just engaging in discussion and really not maligning anyone's successes, experiences, or life choices)

Edited August 8, 2016 by Terminus

[RandomMarine]

Being that I've never lost a game when running hotg I'd disagree that its mediocre especially if ferrus is in the army I get something like 14 repair rolls a turn

[Terminus]

Your win rate and ability to roll 6s is largely irrelevant. The Rite amounts to blessed autosimulacra and outflank for your tanks from what I see in most lists. I have yet to see one based on spamming Castellax, which is the other route to go. Stubborn in your deployment zone might be nice for some quad mortars or heavy support squads, but everyone just crams what few dudes they have into the most expensive tanks available. It's not bad, it's not great. How are you getting 14 repair rolls, is your opponent so kind that they put 1 hull point of damage on seven vehicles every turn rather than 7 hull points on two?

 

I will take back the part where I called Iron Hands unremarkable, though, fair's fair. If using 10-man squads in transports, Immortals are actually kind of interesting costing the same as a unit of Breachers with an attached apothecary.  Do people take advantage of the volkite chargers and gun them down? Or is it 2 meltaguns and call it a day?

Edited August 10, 2016 by Terminus

[Memento Of Prospero]

I am certainly not offended. I am just calling out weak arguments. Uo to that point, all you had done was backhand coments with your opinion and falacies. If you think people's experience is worthless, we can do the same with your paper approached opinion. Empirism is a thing. It's only worthless if it cannot be replicated.

 

I mean, isn't it the point of this thread? To discuss tacics relevant to Iron Hands and they RoWs and make it work?

 

I get it that in a min max world, you want drop pods and rhinos, but just keep going down that road and you'll find out other legions do it better. So why bother?

 

 

Only considering units from a competitive standard is also very toxic. Sure proteus spam might not win the next adepticon, but they are more than servicable for the average player who wants a solid theme forces using the strengths of his legion.

 

I am not picking a fight, but if you are going to be dismissive, back it up.

[Terminus]

You certainly sound like I've touched a nerve. The flesh is weak because it is emotional. ;)

 

I didn't dismiss your experience and in fact asked you to share more of it, and I offered my thoughts on both general play and within the specific confines of the Rite. I wasn't even objecting to the Proteus raiders until you threw down a challenge to "name something better", which as you've pointed out is "pretty much everything". I just don't think a lascannon is ever worth 30 points, that's all.

 

You also can't have both "this is for fun and narrative and victory is playing the game and effectiveness doesn't matter", which I can very much appreciate, and "I win all my games so I'm right". :)

[Memento Of Prospero]

Everyone on the boards who know me personally knows that I love a good argument, and the internet is a place where peole tend to read what should be a normal conversation in a different tone. The flesh is weak, but deeds endure ;)

 

I think there's a middle of the road with it, inbetween optimization and flavour. It's not a binary solution. I've never claimed to have won all my games ;) I said I'd been using them for 2 years. While I may not be a reference for most, I think that milage is worth something

 

I think it's very possible to marry both, to a satisfying degree.

 

As for immortals, from a competitive standpoint, they are useless. They are tough to be sure, but they have too many drawbacka.They are non-scoring breachers who cant access melta bombs. And that's the usual highlight of the unit. To make use of gun them down, you have to win a round of combat first. Cant do that with 1 attack and no power weapons outside the sergeant. 10 man squads are the worst because the buy in price is so steep. At best you run BCoI as your RoW and they score, but they dont amount to much and hatred on terrible melee units is meh. Gorgons are a clean up crew even with that. Maybe vets.

 

But if you wanted to make good on them, take 20 and load them up in a dedicated spartan or kharybdis. With volkites. Touch down anywhere on the table and delete something with it. Autek Mor makes large volume shots great with prefered enemy. You can even put a good dent in terminators with that volume and rerolls.

 

Either way, meltas are awfully meta specific. Would rather have something that can out out more wounds on infantry since you are probably using volkites, or lascutters which are pretty funny against fatty armour.