[HH1.0] Salamanders Tactics

[Sentinel Guy]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm finding Salamanders really stale these days.  +1S flamers and pyroclasts are  ok, but I'm feeling more and more like you have to take firedrakes and our rite or I'm intentionally crippling myself.  It just feels like we give up so much for very little in return unless we take the rite and drakes.

 

I'm looking at Thousand Sons and they get great stuff, I can already see heaps of ways of maximising their potential. Salamanders just feel bland.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

They are not a meta Legion. You play em cos you love the fluff, basically.

 

They are one of...what the only Legion to have a huuuuge, crippling LA rule in exchange for bonuses nowhere near as potent as other Legions, who incidentally get said potent bonus with zero drawdrawback

 

Also a Rpw that focuses on melta spam in 30k is troll level master. Awakening Fire is just blerg, fear is ok but a psychic power? The heck were they smoking?

[Charlo]

They are not a meta Legion. You play em cos you love the fluff, basically.

 

They are one of...what the only Legion to have a huuuuge, crippling LA rule in exchange for bonuses nowhere near as potent as other Legions, who incidentally get said potent bonus with zero drawdrawback

 

Also a Rpw that focuses on melta spam in 30k is troll level master. Awakening Fire is just blerg, fear is ok but a psychic power? The heck were they smoking?

 

They were smoking the big old fluff pipe 

 

Salamanders are what you make them, I suppose. The master crafting is pretty dang powerful and it means anything that isn't an AV14 Ceramited Flare Shielded monster is eating the dust - especially when you go full #FUN and take your obsidian forged pintle MM Rhinos enmasse.

 

Salamanders do have the best dread in the Heresy, so that's a start... Also one of the most baller Primarchs (who is basically S:D in combat and a mini glaive in shooting).

 

I think the best thing to do with Sallies is look at the unconventional rites of war and build around those.

[thereisnosaurus]

Heya folks, I've been sitting on preparations to build a heresy army for a while now and have settled on the Sallies as an interesting painting challenge (going to try and get close to the style in the HH books). I have a list I've been working on and would appreciate some thoughts + some questions/uncertainties about how the rules work these days (last time I played anything serious was back in 5th edition). 

I'm not aiming to make a 'power' list and I'm trying to work within a reasonably tight budget, depending on the burning of prospero plastics for the core of my troops. My basic desires are to 1) have a fairly sizeable proportion of infantry to vehicles, as I love painting and modeling dudes a lot more than armor. 2) to keep the fancy new toys to a minimum and go for a 'retro vibe' harking back to old rogue trader era models (proteus landraider, deimos rhinos, mk III armor, old style flamers etc). 

So the list (exactly 2500 points), without further ado: 

HQ: 

Praetor: thunder hammer, inferno pistol, iron halo, digital lasers, mantle of the elder drake.  ROW: Covenant of Fire (goes with pyroclasts) 

Damocles Command Rhino: (transports legion support squad) 


ELITES: 

Legion terminator squad (10): Sergeant with artificer thunder hammer, 2 heavy flamers, 2 chainfists, 7 power fists. Tartaros terminator armor. 

 

Legion veteran tactical squad (10): Sergeant with artificer armor and artificer thunder hammer, 2x heavy flamer, melta bombs, Marksmen. Rhino dedicated transport with pintle multimelta 

 

Legion veteran tactical squad (10): Sergeant with artificer armor and artificer thunder hammer, 2x heavy flamer, melta bombs, Marksmen. Rhino dedicated transport with pintle multimelta 

Legion apothecary detachment (2): 

1 Apothecary with artificer armor, bolt pistol and power weapon (goes with pyroclasts) 
1 Apothecary with bolter and augury scanner. (goes with legion tactical squad) 

 

TROOPS

Legion Tactical Squad (19): Bare bones. 

 

Pyroclasts (6): Warden with artificer power fist. Land Raider Proteus dedicated transport with pintle heavy flamer and explorator augury web.

Legion support squad (5): Flamers 

HEAVY SUPPORT: 

Leviathan Dreadnought: Grav Flux Bombard, Siege Claw, 2x Heavy flamers, Armored Ceramite. 


My overall goal is to have most units be self sufficient and able to threaten anything be it marines, tanks or robots. The army is designed to work in two 'blobs'- the terminators, legion tactical squad and leviathan are the foot sloggers of the army there to either hold cover or run up the centre. The mounted units want to maneuver into good firing positions or threaten and divide enemy fire. I'm using tartaros termies rather than firedrakes because I really like the models and I figure if they're footslogging being able to run, even at a salamander's pace, may come in handy. 

I'm unsure how a few things work in the new rules and haven't been able to find full clarification online yet. 
1) not sure if the veterans grant outflank to their rhino transports, that would be my intention as combined with the explorator web and damocles they would be extremely reliable flankers

2) not sure if the sniper rule actually grants veterans AP2 on 6s to wound, or just precision shots and max 4+ to wound. Even if only the latter, the veterans can threaten mechanicus robots and siege guns effectively (which is the role I most want them for), but hopefully the former as otherwise the list is lacking a bit on AP2 shots in volume. 

 

3) not sure how melta bombs work, whether a whole squad can use them in melee (in which case the vets ought be able to seriously threaten heavy armor) or whether it's just one guy. If so it might be worth taking the bombs off the vet squads and giving them a couple of combi meltas each, then putting some melta bombs on the tactical and support squad sergeants. 


I have a few sprues of sisters of silence around as well, so I was thinking of an allied detachment something like 1 hq knight plus a squad of vigilators in a kharon when that comes out, plus a squad of seekers because frankly too much fire is not a thing that can happen. Not sure how they'll play but I want to use the models and they're surprisingly cheap points wise. Alternatively I could go bankrupt and get a Cerastus Acheron if it's useable as a sole imperial knight ally/LoW, not sure how that works either? 

[Charlo]

Welcome to the sallies my friend, in terms of an old school aesthetic you've come to the right place!

 

To answer your questions:

 

1. The Rhinos do get outflank yes!
2. 6 to wound is indeed AP2 with sniper! With a 6 to Hit being a Precision Shot. Meaning those consecutive 6s can threaten special weapons/ sergeants etc
3. It's a contentious issue. The current official ruling (for 40k) is that it is one member of a squad per turn. Many groups choose to forego this however, as in the Heresy units pay premium to all be equipped with bombs. It's something to talk over with your opponent/ tourney organiser/ meta group.

 

In terms of a list, it's looking good but a few points:

• It's currently an illegal list, you need another compulsory troops choice (Tactical or Assault Squad), Pyroclasts are only Non-Compulsory troops and Support squads are also Non-compulsory. Easiest thing to do would be split your tactical squad into two ten man ones. I'd also then suggesting grabbing a Rhino for one to get another box and Master crafter Multi-Melta into the list.
• Give your Preator a Storm Shield! Eternal Warrior and 3++ makes him one of the toughest non-special characters in the Heresy.
• Sadly, Tartaros armour is just plain at odds with Salamanders, they have HUGE penalties to sweeping which is the main reason to take Tartaros in the first place - if you can I'd try and swap your Tartaros for Cataphractii or even get some Firedrakes - who are Terminators turned up to their logical extreme with 2 wounds and WS5 and a 3++.
• Vet units look fine - while cool looking maybe ditch the thunder hammers on the Vet Sarge. You cant shoot your sniper bolters and charge (and as a Salamander combat isn't your place anyway unless you are a Firedrake) and it will free up a good chunk of points.
• The Leviathan is awesome, but he's very slow walking up the field and a massive target. Seeing as you can't deep strike in the covenant of fire it may be worth looking at other options, or outfitting him for a more defensive role?

As for builds, I'd suggest getting some Rapiers in there for that real 2nd Ed feel ;)

[thereisnosaurus]

thanks for the help :). Them vet squads be filthy, my god. 

I've played around with a couple of things

> switched to two ten man tactical squads
> removed the apothecary that goes with that squad and the flamer support squad to free up some points 

> switched the inferno pistol on the praetor for a storm shield 

> used all those spare points to upgrade the terminators to firedrakes. can only afford 9, mostly with the same weapons. I hadn't realised they're 

 

Since the vets don't have the raw firepower to delete units outright, I imagine people will try and charge them to stop them unloading repeatedly. They're an ok melee unit as is and I wanted to add that little touch more punch to make their odds of winning combat higher to avoid those potentially brutal lost combat morale checks, perhaps even rout their opposition quicker so they can fire again. Plus rule of cool. 

 

 

Further thoughts: 

> I'm torn between cataphracti terminator armor and tartaros aesthetically, mostly because cataphractii matches mkIII power armor more closely in style (same pattern of bolters and flamers to what I'm using in the rest of the list). On the other hand the official firedrakes appear to be wearing modified tartaros armor, not cataphractii and I actually own two sets of the tartaros termies from BAP. I know you're supposed to model things correctly and that's a bigger part of HH gaming culture than standard 40k, so what's the consensus around using one mark of terminator armor to represent another so long as you're not mix/matching in the same force confusingly. 

 

> I'm also vaguely worried that because they're foot-slogging, with slow and purposeful they're never going to go anywhere. 

 

> Lastly, a point of interest. Can combi-flamers use their flamer half for overwatching? It's a moot point with firedrakes, but it might be another reason to run tartaros terminators, the combination of being able to run and being able to wall of flame with a squad full of combi flamers allowing you to force a more aggressive 'charge me and eat a wall of flame or don't and eat a bunch of templates then get charged yourself' decision tree. 

 

> Budget wise I'm planning on picking up a proteus and the three rhino deal from forgeworld, buying more armor is currently a bit beyond my means. 

 

> I got the leviathan second hand, I really love that model and I think it fits the salamanders vibe, so it'll stay in. Besides, massive target it may be, but it looks like it can take a beating pretty reliably and anything flying at it is going to not be killing terminators. 

[Akis]

I do not know why you are complaining about the legion and CoF Rite. They are excellent. Immunity to fear, morale reroll, and if we take a CoF, then move through cover on ALL units (tanks are not afraid of a difficult landscape), the melta is still 8-1, instakill elite terminators and HQ of the enemy. 5 ++ on all vehicle, including against melta bombs - all envy us. About the flamer everyone has forgotten and is not afraid of them. So long as pyroclasts do not come to them, and do not inflict 50+ hits. Our Legion has the best special units and underrated HQ. Cassian does not need comments, the 14th front ignores all. Nomus is one of two named eternal warriors from the whole Heresy. Jurre is 2+/3++ and equal costs the default chaplain. I consider the legion a dark horse, which everyone underestimates, and then burn in a cleansing flame.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I do not know why you are complaining about the legion and CoF Rite. They are excellent. Immunity to fear, morale reroll, and if we take a CoF, then move through cover on ALL units (tanks are not afraid of a difficult landscape), the melta is still 8-1, instakill elite terminators and HQ of the enemy. 5 ++ on all vehicle, including against melta bombs - all envy us. About the flamer everyone has forgotten and is not afraid of them. So long as pyroclasts do not come to them, and do not inflict 50+ hits. Our Legion has the best special units and underrated HQ. Cassian does not need comments, the 14th front ignores all. Nomus is one of two named eternal warriors from the whole Heresy. Jurre is 2+/3++ and equal costs the default chaplain. I consider the legion a dark horse, which everyone underestimates, and then burn in a cleansing flame.

 

It all looks great on paper, and I love salamaders, but let's be honest here. They look great until you start looking at the units and upgrades people take.

 

Immunity to fear. Well Leadership 9 across the board for most units, 2 legions actually use fear.

 

Can't sweep to save your life, quite literally

. 

Firedrakes - were the bomb for the first 3 books. Now everyone has 2 wound elite terminators and some get them for much cheaper. They are one dimentional in application.

 

Pyroclasts - They are a great unit in another legion, but you already have heavy flamers and mastercrafted meltas everywhere. They get a weaker version of both. S5 flamers and a S6 melta doesn't get you much mileage.

 

Melta weapons - requires delivery, in a RoW who disallows deep strike/drop pods. Unfortunately since armoured ceramite is a no brainer, S8 doesn't cut it against Av 13/14 tanks, or flareshields which are riduculously common.

 

5++ in all vehicules. Well it's not, far from it. It does not cover the most common anti-tank weapons. And when you start looking at it, you wonder on what? Contemptors and up already have it. Speeders jink. 

[Lord Asvaldir]

To be fair, just because a bunch of legions have 2w ws5 terminators doesn't mean firedrakes are boring or bad. Sure they are one dimensional since they can't take any firepower like justerian can, but +3 invul ws5 2w terminators are solid, plus they can't sweep anyway so that legion rule doesn't hurt them much. Now of course skehmet are better but I'd still say firedrakes are solid.

 

I agree with you on pyroclasts though, all they really have going for them is artificer armor. Shame their flamers are not s6, which I think they should be. Meltas are just too short range to be all that useful.

[Runefyre]

To be fair, just because a bunch of legions have 2w ws5 terminators doesn't mean firedrakes are boring or bad. Sure they are one dimensional since they can't take any firepower like justerian can, but +3 invul ws5 2w terminators are solid, plus they can't sweep anyway so that legion rule doesn't hurt them much. Now of course skehmet are better but I'd still say firedrakes are solid.

 

I agree with you on pyroclasts though, all they really have going for them is artificer armor. Shame their flamers are not s6, which I think they should be. Meltas are just too short range to be all that useful.

What aren't Sekhmet better than lol. But firedrakes are insanely hard to shift, especially with a primus medicae. If you roll well with that 3++ they'll soak in insane amount of fire-power.

 

Pyroclasts need str6 ap3 flamers imo (and str8 and lance and melta on the beam mode).

[Memento Of Prospero]

I wouldn't go that far for pyroclasts.

 

S6 AP 4 is fine. You will be generating a rather large sum of wounds anyways, might as well give your opponent the impression that he might make it alive ;)

 

S7 lance or S8 melta would also be fine by me.

[Caillum]

Yeah, Pyroclast flame projectors should simply be a heavy-flamer/meltagun combination weapon. Make sense, and would make them an attractive choice.

 

Whilst "Covenant of Fire" is pretty cool, it is a bit restrictive. I have been working on a side project with Salamanders - my core force will be Cassian Dracos Reborn, Xiaphas Jurr and Nârik Dreygur, so Rites of War are out the window anyway. This also allows me to take Dreadclaws, which help with the Salamanders short-range strengths.

 

Mitigating the Sweeping Advance restriction is simple - take Firedrakes, Dreadnoughts, shooty squads, etc. And at least you have got the 'Strength of Will' re-roll to help when you do get stuck in assault.

[Akis]

It all looks great on paper, and I love salamaders, but let's be honest here. They look great until you start looking at the units and upgrades people take.

Immunity to fear. Well Leadership 9 across the board for most units, 2 legions actually use fear.

 

Can't sweep to save your life, quite literally

. 

Firedrakes - were the bomb for the first 3 books. Now everyone has 2 wound elite terminators and some get them for much cheaper. They are one dimentional in application.

 

Pyroclasts - They are a great unit in another legion, but you already have heavy flamers and mastercrafted meltas everywhere. They get a weaker version of both. S5 flamers and a S6 melta doesn't get you much mileage.

 

Melta weapons - requires delivery, in a RoW who disallows deep strike/drop pods. Unfortunately since armoured ceramite is a no brainer, S8 doesn't cut it against Av 13/14 tanks, or flareshields which are riduculously common.

 

5++ in all vehicules. Well it's not, far from it. It does not cover the most common anti-tank weapons. And when you start looking at it, you wonder on what? Contemptors and up already have it. Speeders jink. 

 

Not only immune to fear, but also 1d6 on moralchecks, which saved me many times. Pyroclasts very cheap for their abilities. 2+ save at all, s6 melta can kill terminators and rhino-type technique, flamers s5 - 25 points more expensive than hss with h/flamers. In the game before last I took 10 drakes with Jurr - they killed half of the opponent's army. Yesterday I decided to reduce to 5 drakes with Nomus. Typhon, 5 deathshroudes and Glave tank just died, killing only one drike. 5 ++ on all equipment - the glaive could not glance-pen rhino and vindicators.

So this all works well not on paper, but on the table. (And I apologize for the bad translation, I'm not an English)

[Gorgoff]

so what's the consensus around using one mark of terminator armor to represent another so long as you're not mix/matching in the same force confusingly.

 

> Lastly, a point of interest. Can combi-flamers use their flamer half for overwatching?

Yupp.

And the consensus is: don't.

We're Not in 40k.

We pay at least as much attention at appearance as on Da Rulez. 'What you see is what you get' is king.

Rule of cool the most important rule in the game besides: have fun. ;)

So don't do that.

If you like Tartaros then go ahead and play them.

I would give at least 4 of them Combi-Weapons though.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Gorgoff

[Memento Of Prospero]

No problem with translation, I am also not English as native language.

 

I will give you that the moral boost is good. Makes Salamander troops great at holding the line.

 

However, you have to start by comparing pyrclasts to a support squad, since flamer strength and both non-compulsory troop choices (RoW). So a 5 man squads sets you back 60 points more. You can for 12 points per model a 2+ save and a 6 inch melta. At 6 inches and the melta rule (so 3 inches for extra D6), you won't even kill a rhino unless it's dead in your face. In regards to killing terminators, if you managed to get within 6 inches to shoot once (and not even cause instant death like a regular melta would) odds are they could have charged you the turn before or you wont cause more than 2-3 wounds...

 

I've played them in 4 games so far and opponents just pick them off once they disembark. They get to flame perimeter infantry and die. They are good at that, but so is any flamer unit.

 

Now for you great games with the fire drakes, you seriously need to play someone who's better. Drakes are sloooow. They can't run. A glaive can run circles around them and never get engaged... Shooting a S8 Ap 2 beam to burn 1-2 a turn with complementaty lascannons.

 

And sending Deathshroud into a unit with S8 attacks is the penultimate bad idea. That's not what DS are good at. He just handed you over a golden thicket to victory. In  the end, I hope you killed half his army with 10 drakes a character and I assume a spartan, because that will set you back for at least half of yours.

 

Good for you that the 5++ stops everything. For me, it stops 1/3 of the things that usually can't damage my landraiders, so it's good for landspeeders and rhinos.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

No problem with translation, I am also not English as native language.

 

I will give you that the moral boost is good. Makes Salamander troops great at holding the line.

 

However, you have to start by comparing pyrclasts to a support squad, since flamer strength and both non-compulsory troop choices (RoW). So a 5 man squads sets you back 60 points more. You can for 12 points per model a 2+ save and a 6 inch melta. At 6 inches and the melta rule (so 3 inches for extra D6), you won't even kill a rhino unless it's dead in your face. In regards to killing terminators, if you managed to get within 6 inches to shoot once (and not even cause instant death like a regular melta would) odds are they could have charged you the turn before or you wont cause more than 2-3 wounds...

 

I've played them in 4 games so far and opponents just pick them off once they disembark. They get to flame perimeter infantry and die. They are good at that, but so is any flamer unit.

 

Now for you great games with the fire drakes, you seriously need to play someone who's better. Drakes are sloooow. They can't run. A glaive can run circles around them and never get engaged... Shooting a S8 Ap 2 beam to burn 1-2 a turn with complementaty lascannons.

 

And sending Deathshroud into a unit with S8 attacks is the penultimate bad idea. That's not what DS are good at. He just handed you over a golden thicket to victory. In  the end, I hope you killed half his army with 10 drakes a character and I assume a spartan, because that will set you back for at least half of yours.

 

Good for you that the 5++ stops everything. For me, it stops 1/3 of the things that usually can't damage my landraiders, so it's good for landspeeders and rhinos.

 

Morale is kind of whack when you get sweeped by literally anything but tech thralls though. All of our strength is within close-range firepower, enabling near any other Legion to sweep you with ease. 

[Charlo]

Salamanders are fluffy, but you need to really be ready for a grind.

 

You're going to shoot up a lot when you reach the enemy, but whatever is left is going to do what it can to mulch you gud.

 

You need the power and defensive capability (and morale) to hold against the tide.

 

Vulkan helps.

[Sentinel Guy]

Vulkan is a beast.

[foamy248]

I can attest to this. 

[Master Ciaphas]

Hail!

 

Well, I am currently well under way with painting my Salamanders, and have a somewhat solid base of 2x10 Tacticals, 2 Apothecaries, Primus Medicae, Legion Champion and, Master of Signal painted, with a Rapier Quad Launcher soon to be finished.

 

I have another 10 MkIV and 20 MkIII Tacticals lying unassembled, that I want to get done as "something" different than the bog standard Tactical Marines I have already. My thoughts are to divide them up as such:

10 MkIII Devastators

10 MkIII Veterans

5 MkIV Support Squad

5 MkIV Tacticals to boost one of the existing Tactical Squads to a grand total of 15 (and will see if I can get a Nuncio-Vox for one of them just for laughs...) 

 

That said, I would very much appreciate any advice on how to kit them out. I think this addition will be the last infantry for my Salamander army, before I wrap up the force with some armour and dreadnought units (Contemptors, Leviathans, Cassian and Deredeo).

 

As for the kit, I was thinking 10 Volkite Culverins for the Devastators, flamers of any kind for the Veterans, and either volkite, plasma or melta for the support squad? How does this sound?

 

Cheers in advance!

 

Kind regards,

Master Ciaphas

[Charlo]

All sounds like a plan!

 

Culverin squads are totally brutal, but they do eat one of the coveted heavy support slots. Instead you could try a support squad of Calivers? Depends on your army...!

 

Sniper Veterans with flamer templates are brutal. End of story. Make sure to give the vets heavy flamers and some combi flamers! You could even try some hand flamers on them, as they are S4 with Salamanders.

 

If you can, I'd boost the support squad to about 7/8 and kitbash and apothecary for them. Depending on your current anti-vehicle situation you can either go melta or plasma.

[Master Ciaphas]

Cheers for the quick reply! As for my army,  I naturally understand that the units mentioned will not work in a vacuum, and that they will be working with others. This is what I have currently and what is on order:

 

1 Praetor, Cataphractii armour, Thunderhammer, Volkite combi-weapon

1 Primus Medicae, Cataphractii armour

1 Praetor Cataphractii armour (Betrayal at Calth)

1 Chaplain Consul (Betrayl at Calth)

 

1 Legion Champion

1 Master of Signal

2 Legion Apothecaries (1 with power sword)

 

1 Contemptor Dreadnought w. Kheres Assault Cannon & DCCW w. bolter (BaC)

1 Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought (Multi-melta / DCCW w. flamer)

1 Legion Rapier Quad Launcher

5 Fire Drakes w. Thunderhammers & Storm Shields

10 Pyroclasts

 

2x10 Tacticals w. veteran sergeant, artificer armour, powerfist, combi-melta, 2 Vexilliae

30 unassembled Tactical Marines

 

ON ORDER

Spartan Assault Tank

Sicaran MBT

Land Raider Proteus

1 Legion Rapier Quad Launcher

1 Salamanders Contemptor Dreadnought (no weapons yet...)

 

So, that is what I otherwise have in my fledgling armour. At somepoint, Vulkan will be added, but he will be the very last of everything, la piece de resistance!

 

With that in mind, what would you suggest for the 30 unassembled marines? :-D

 

Cheers!

[God-Potato of Mankind]

2x 10 man tactical squads with either combi-flamer/heavy flamer and/or combi-melta/melta

 

Last 10 tac support or heavy support. Culverins are amazing imo but they take up a busy space in HS :/ Maybe in smaller games.

[Charlo]

Aye, I think Calivers are fine usually. They give up half of the shots, but they score...!

[Master Ciaphas]

Errmmm...Tactical Squads do not get heavy or special weapons, do they? Or am I missing something my sheet? As far as I can tell, only the squad sergeant gets any options?