Knights Errant, Dark Angels, Grey Knights Discussion

[Augustus]

I'm sad.

 

I just read Golding's short about Draigo and liked it, however.

[Gentlemanloser]

Was it about Driago pre being trapped in the warp, or post?

[Kol Saresk]

Going by the description, it'd look like the beginning of his entrapment. Could be wrong.

[Hyaenidae]

So if the only printed material, currently, which details the origina of the GK gene-seed is the Codex, that should have the canonical weight, right?

 

We can revisit if there's any other printed origin, like a later Codex, or a new BL novel.

 

But until such time, there should be no arguement that the GK 'dex stand.

 

Right?

 

There is no such thing as canon in 40k. That's why I love 30k. The lies haven't set in as much yet.

 

One example of how BL is willing to milk even the worst piece of fluff in existence doesn't change that ton of other inconsistencies exist in the Dex's, that what people have held close as truth have been disproven over the HH series, and that there is potential evidence showing unsourced gene-seed being created on Terra for unknown reasons yet.

 

The GK dex stands as every other Dex stands: Everything and nothing is a lie, until the HH covers it.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't get your position that "there's no canon", but "HH books are all true!".

 

That's just personal bias.

 

If there's no canon to 40k, then the HH *never* happened...  The Emperor is John Winchester, etc, etc.

 

Now, the 'loose' canon discussion, with every published bit of source material being equally 'true', is different.

 

But as such, the *only* printed material on the origin of the GK gene seed is the GK Codex.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

So if the only printed material, currently, which details the origina of the GK gene-seed is the Codex, that should have the canonical weight, right?

 

We can revisit if there's any other printed origin, like a later Codex, or a new BL novel.

 

But until such time, there should be no arguement that the GK 'dex stand.

 

Right?

 

There is no such thing as canon in 40k. That's why I love 30k. The lies haven't set in as much yet.

 

One example of how BL is willing to milk even the worst piece of fluff in existence doesn't change that ton of other inconsistencies exist in the Dex's, that what people have held close as truth have been disproven over the HH series, and that there is potential evidence showing unsourced gene-seed being created on Terra for unknown reasons yet.

 

The GK dex stands as every other Dex stands: Everything and nothing is a lie, until the HH covers it.

 

 

That and "Everything you know is a lie." It is directly meant to say that anything and everything may or may not be true. Some use this as GW's carte blanche to retcon from edition to edition. It is also meant to show that the history of each faction is written according to the bias, accumulated knowledge(or lack thereof) as well as the propaganda it knows of its history. That's why in the IA articles which were written by normal, Imperial historians, you see the Emperor repeatedly mentioned as the "God-Emperor" even though we all know he did not go by that title during 30K. It's also why we see the Nine Loyalists Legions->Chapters and all Successive Chapters being said to worship the God-Emperor even though it is accepted as common knowledge by us the fans that not all, or even most Chapters do.

 

The History of 40K is meant to be contradicting and filled with lies and half-truths. You believe what you want to believe, but it does not mean it is the in-universe truth or that it will even remain as a part of the universe in later rendition. The GK believe their gene-seed comes straight from the Emperor. In 40K, that's all that matters; what they believe. But in 30K? Don't expect to stay true until it happens. Otherwise you get Ferrus dying at Istvaan V instead of disappearing, beyond-the-norm accelerated implantations gone wrong rather than mutated clones(which I was rather looking forward too), 500 worlds instead of 8, Calth being a sacrfice rather than a salt-and-burn, no Thousand Sons at Istvaan III, the Eisenstein only having Death Guard, the Edict being on all Legions rather than just the Thousand Sons and on and on and on and on.

[Kol Saresk]

Definition of canon according to Merriam-Webster

 

1

a : a regulation or dogma decreed by a church council

b : a provision of canon law

2

[Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin, from Latin, model] : the most solemn and unvarying part of the Mass including the consecration of the bread and wine

3

[Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard]

a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture

b : the authentic works of a writer

c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works <the canon of great literature>

4

a : an accepted principle or rule

b : a criterion or standard of judgment

c : a body of principles, rules, standards, or norms

5

[Late Greek kanōn, from Greek, model] : a contrapuntal musical composition in which each successively entering voice presents the initial theme usually transformed in a strictly consistent way

 

Now, where can the totality of 40K exist in all of that as canon? Nothing is consistent from edition to edition(Look at the Black Templars and Iron Hands). There is no norm as it changes from edition to edition. And the quote "Everything you know is a lie" is directly meant to invalidate any authenticity of "History as 40K knows it."

 

The HH isn't even canon. It's a "firsthand account of events as they happened when they happened" versus "well this is how the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition tells us it happens and since they're the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition, they must be omniscient."

[Conn Eremon]

I don't get your position that "there's no canon", but "HH books are all true!".

 

That's just personal bias.

 

If there's no canon to 40k, then the HH *never* happened... The Emperor is John Winchester, etc, etc.

 

Now, the 'loose' canon discussion, with every published bit of source material being equally 'true', is different.

 

But as such, the *only* printed material on the origin of the GK gene seed is the GK Codex.

Pretty sure the only difference is that Heathens says 'no' instead of 'loose.' Also pretty sure you know that.

[Kol Saresk]

Although, I am confused. What does the discussion of how the GK believe they were created, have to do with who do we think will be the founding masters of the GK?

[Hyaenidae]

I don't get your position that "there's no canon", but "HH books are all true!".

 

That's just personal bias.

 

If I gave the impression that I take all of the HH books as canon, then I apologise. But, I do hold it's info on a higher tier in my mind. All of 40k rests upon the shoulders of the history and events of 30k. All of 40k is based on 10,000 year old myths, whereas the HH has, as others have said, peeled back the veil, and allowed us to get closer look at the events that shaped the history of all the codexes. How much is true and how much is false is up to the reader, which has been BL and GW's stance on the matter of 'canon', for both eras. So, I put to you sir, that your choice of codex over all is personal bias as well. It's all personal bias, personal taste, personal belief.

 

You opinion is no better than mine.

 

If there's no canon to 40k, then the HH *never* happened...  The Emperor is John Winchester, etc, etc.

 

Holy crap, he isn't?

 

But as such, the *only* printed material on the origin of the GK gene seed is the GK Codex.

 

As heavily as the Knights Errant are being covered in the HH books, I doubt that'll last.

[depthcharge12]

Well remember what Primarch Ezio said:

 

 

"Nothing is Truth. Everything is Permitted."

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

In the Codex =][= it explains why we may never know the full truth about the history of the Imperium.

 

 

 
HISTORY OF THE INQUISITION
It should come as no surprise that the Inquisition’s past is shrouded in secrecy. Even the Inquisitors themselves have only the haziest of understandings as to how their organisation was founded, and must rely on hundreds of disparate and contradictory legends for guidance. Indeed, there is a branch of the Inquisition itself – the Ordo Originatus – dedicated to unravelling ten millennia of myths, exaggerations and lies. This is a difficult task, raised to impossibility due to the opposing work of the Ordo Redactus, who focus their own efforts into deliberately obscuring the past, lest the enemies of Mankind discover some advantage through knowledge of the Inquisition’s beginnings.

[Perrin]

That quote is amazing, like something from a comedy sketch. Pretty much sums up the Inquisition.

[Conn Eremon]

I'm imagining hidden, unknown battles taking place deep in ancient, dark and dusty subterranean libraries of such immense size that you could enter and not even be aware of the battle, on Terra itself.

[Kol Saresk]

I'm imagining hidden, unknown battles taking place deep in ancient, dark and dusty subterranean libraries of such immense size that you could enter and not even be aware of the battle, on Terra itself.

Dude. That's some H.P. Lovecraft stuff right there.

[depthcharge12]

 

I'm imagining hidden, unknown battles taking place deep in ancient, dark and dusty subterranean libraries of such immense size that you could enter and not even be aware of the battle, on Terra itself.

Dude. That's some H.P. Lovecraft stuff right there.

 

 

That name is fantastic and manly.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Mat Ward, agent of the Ordo Redactus. I don't know who is worse Redactus of the Alpha Legion.

[Kol Saresk]

Redactus. At least the Alpha Legion keeps records. I think. Maybe. I know they're here somewhere. "Hello Pony Explores Spangland." No, that's not it.....

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

Courtesy of Oiad.

In addition, many of you GK fans may already be aware that LJ Goulding is also planning to release a story covering the divisive subject of 'The Battle of Kornovin'. That's right, its that tale in which the newly-promoted Supreme Grand Master Draigo gives Daemon Primarch Mortarion *ahem* inpromptu cardiovascular surgery. It's tentatively entitled Mortarion's Heart and it's cover artwork was released last week. Here it is for those yet of you who are yet to see it:

http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/3/2055/thumb_620x2000/MORTARIONS_HEART.jpg

(Larger image can be viewed here.)

Any bets that a book entitled Mortarion's Heart, doesn't involve the name carving?

It's not that Codexes aren't factual, it's that Ward can't write internally consistent/beilveable fluff.

Also, if the Codex isn't factual, then the following isn't factual;

>

Malcador the Sigilite, closest of the Emperors servants, scoured the battletorn worlds of the Imperium for the men upon whose shoulders the burden of the future would be

Which contractics BL stories, like the Garro Audio Books.

And if that passage *is* factual, then there's no basis to claim that the entire Codex isn't...

i think your reading that last quote wrong. because he did look for other people just like Garro. Garro simply found who he told him too. and The Sigilite himself found the human members of the future Inq. at least thats what it is said so far.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

Although, I am confused. What does the discussion of how the GK believe they were created, have to do with who do we think will be the founding masters of the GK?

 

you know iv been away for a few days. your post reminds me that i see that we got back to the what is true discussion. RETURN TO THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD. or i will have no choice but to have a mod flex his muscles over it. and i would really really like to avoid that completely.

[Gentlemanloser]

I thought this thread was about the origin of the GK?

 

 

i think your reading that last quote wrong. because he did look for
other people just like Garro. Garro simply found who he told him too.
and The Sigilite himself found the human members of the future Inq. at
least thats what it is said so far.

 

Yes, he did.  Just like the Codex states.

 

So if the Codex isn't factual, then the BL books supporting this aren't factual.

 

And we're back to John Winchester...

[Conn Eremon]

Talking about the Grey Knights Codex and its statements on their origins is on topic. Despite what Kol said, I think discussing what the Grey Knights believe about their origins is pertinent to a discussion about what we believe their origins to be.

 

But right now it's just an argument about what constitutes 40k 'canon,' which is not on topic regardless of the fact that the Grey Knights are being used as examples.

[Kol Saresk]

Talking about the Grey Knights Codex and its statements on their origins is on topic. Despite what Kol said, I think discussing what the Grey Knights believe about their origins is pertinent to a discussion about what we believe their origins to be.

 

But right now it's just an argument about what constitutes 40k 'canon,' which is not on topic regardless of the fact that the Grey Knights are being used as examples.

I never said it wasn't pertinent, just that I didn't know if we were supposed to be talking about it :D

[Conn Eremon]

Fair enough, I misunderstood.

[Kol Saresk]

So basically we're seeing what the Grey Knights believed happened versus what is happening vs what we think is going to happen, right?