Knights Errant, Dark Angels, Grey Knights Discussion

[Kol Saresk]

Just look at the 13th Black Crusade Event. Official Results: Abaddon finally breaks through the Gates of Cadia. Sometime later: Abaddon just barely managed to break through with a token force while the Imperials were still holding strong. 4th(or was it 5th?) Edition: Abaddon was soundly beaten back. Now: The 13th Crusade is brewing on the horizon. Forces beyond our comprehension are massing at the Gates of Hell, ready to let loose the call for war. These, are the End Times. Stand ready, or die running.

 

Compared to:

 

3rd and 4th Edition: The Grey Knights are daemonhunters. They are the 666th Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes. Few in number and highly specialized, they are organized not by Company, but by squads. Where they walk, only death will follow. Both for the Enemy and the Ally. 5th Edition: The Grey Knights are super-heroes. Their farts will exorcise daemons by the billions. A single warrior of this proud and mighty Chapter can hold back the Gates of Hell indefinitely and even carve his name into the heart of a daemon Primarch. Also, numbers aren't an issue. They die by the hundreds. All the time. But they always win. No matter what.

 

*"No sacrifice, no victory! Quick, kill Brother Bob so we can win this battle already!"

 

"But Bob is the best shot! Not to mention our Chaplain!"

 

"Blame Kaldor Draigo. If he was actually punctual, we would have defeated these 354,686,785,321,666 daemons in five minutes with no losses."

 

*Note: Complete and total exaggeration of an already exaggerated fluff.

[Karthak]

Wonder what Abaddon's plans to stop the Tyranids is. One thing at a time I suppose. But with the End Times narrative, he could well end up reaching Terra and crushing it just in time to get eaten by the main body of the Nids.

Like TG put it: "By the time he gets to the third planet the Tyranids will have eaten everything and Abaddon will find Terra stripped to the slag heaps, prompting him to scream in frustration until he gets stabbed by a hundred lictors."

:D

[Perrin]

Obviously ignoring the Draigo stuff, the Grey Knights aren't that overpowered in fluff. With regards to losses, compare them to the Blood Angels and it really isn't as much. Also they only get called out when the real big bads come knocking, so of course they will take heavier losses. Take them banishing Angron for example; They lost around 100 Grey Knights I think? It is reasonable to suggest that a normal Chapter would have lost a far higher number, in fact I think the only reason Grimnar summons the GK is because he knows the SW on their own won't be able to win that battle, and they would have all been destroyed (unless they ran away).

[Kol Saresk]

Obviously ignoring the Draigo stuff, the Grey Knights aren't that overpowered in fluff. With regards to losses, compare them to the Blood Angels and it really isn't as much. Also they only get called out when the real big bads come knocking, so of course they will take heavier losses. Take them banishing Angron for example; They lost around 100 Grey Knights I think? It is reasonable to suggest that a normal Chapter would have lost a far higher number, in fact I think the only reason Grimnar summons the GK is because he knows the SW on their own won't be able to win that battle, and they would have all been destroyed (unless they ran away).

Like I said, "exaggeration of an already exaggerated fluff". But where a gathering of just 100 Grey Knights was something of note, something monumental(like Angron in the First War of Armageddon), it has since become something "all too common". These are specialists who recruit from a very specific recruiting pool: that of psykers who are male and have genetic compatibility with the gene-seed. And with those who survive the training, the number becomes even smaller. The loss of a hundred Grey Knights is on a level beyond "the loss of two or three Companies". It's like "loss of an entire Chapter in a single event" catastrophic. And yet, it seems like everytime we turn around, "Oh, there's a hundred here. There's a hundred there. Here another hundred, there another hundred, everywhere another hundred! Ol' McDonald had a farm. Ee-I-ee-I-oh!"

 

Where once Grey Knights were something rare and powerful, beacons of righteous fury against the daemon(that sometimes burnt up the Guardsmen they were protecting) who fought to destroy the Great Enemy at any cost, now it seems like chump change when "at any cost" is paid "every time".

[hopkins]

anyone else read this?

with pandorax, trials of azrael, the other advent stories and the cypher dataslate, there's been a big push on DA stuff

 

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/advent-day-twenty-five-cypher-guardian-of-order.html
 

 

 

For a select few amongst the First Legion, the Northwilds of Caliban hold a particularly dark secret. At the command of Luther himself, young Librarian Zahariel accompanies the Lord Cypher on one of his mysterious forays into the unknown depths. But an ancient evil is stirring once more and, with rumours of galactic civil war creeping back to their home world, it may have already sunken its claws into the Dark Angels Legion...

 

[Phoebus]

I hate to sound rude, but I rather wish there had been more emphasis on quality rather than quantity where the Dark Angels material is concerned.  For every great read like "Savage Weapons", "The Lion", and The Unremembered Empire, there seems to be an uninspiring (or downright disappointing) release, like "Dark Vengeance", Pandorax, or Ravenwing.

[Lord Tharand]

 

Obviously ignoring the Draigo stuff, the Grey Knights aren't that overpowered in fluff. With regards to losses, compare them to the Blood Angels and it really isn't as much. Also they only get called out when the real big bads come knocking, so of course they will take heavier losses. Take them banishing Angron for example; They lost around 100 Grey Knights I think? It is reasonable to suggest that a normal Chapter would have lost a far higher number, in fact I think the only reason Grimnar summons the GK is because he knows the SW on their own won't be able to win that battle, and they would have all been destroyed (unless they ran away).

Like I said, "exaggeration of an already exaggerated fluff". But where a gathering of just 100 Grey Knights was something of note, something monumental(like Angron in the First War of Armageddon), it has since become something "all too common". These are specialists who recruit from a very specific recruiting pool: that of psykers who are male and have genetic compatibility with the gene-seed. And with those who survive the training, the number becomes even smaller. The loss of a hundred Grey Knights is on a level beyond "the loss of two or three Companies". It's like "loss of an entire Chapter in a single event" catastrophic. And yet, it seems like everytime we turn around, "Oh, there's a hundred here. There's a hundred there. Here another hundred, there another hundred, everywhere another hundred! Ol' McDonald had a farm. Ee-I-ee-I-oh!"

 

Where once Grey Knights were something rare and powerful, beacons of righteous fury against the daemon(that sometimes burnt up the Guardsmen they were protecting) who fought to destroy the Great Enemy at any cost, now it seems like chump change when "at any cost" is paid "every time".

 

I don't think the recruitment pool is that tiny when you consider they can take aspirants from any of the million words of the Imperium.  I'm sure they can find a few hundred here and there when you're talking hundreds of trillions if not hundreds of quadrillions of souls. :P

[depthcharge12]

They would have a large pool to look from but iirc they only take the strongest psykers and even have the children face some sort of daemon or thingy that is possible to scare them into uselessness

[Lord Tharand]

They would have a large pool to look from but iirc they only take the strongest psykers and even have the children face some sort of daemon or thingy that is possible to scare them into uselessness

 

Even so I suspect they are selective because they can be not because there is a lack of potential aspirants.  There are literally so many humans in the 40k universe that there isn't a shortage for any sort of human material.  Now, their lack of understanding of how geneseed really works and the process for implantation probably slows them down much more than not being able to find some powerful enough pysker kid.

[Kol Saresk]

They only recruit from psykers that have been transported to Terra via the Black Ships and have been screened as suitable applicants. Last I heard at any rate. That is a very specific niche to recruit from. Within an already specific niche that is inside another specific niche.

 

Also, there is no guarantee all of those recruits are compatible with the gene-seed. This limits the production rate.

 

There is also the matter of surviving the training(physical and psychical) that is inherent to not only becoming an Astartes, but an Astartes trained to kill daemons. Somehow, I imagine this to be more strenuous and life threatening than having to survive in the deserts of Baal or Nocturne without supplies. Or having to hunt down and kill a carnosaur. Not sure why. I think its just my imagination getting the better of me.

 

In most stories involving 40K Astartes, we hear "Those fellows were in my graduating class." You don't hear that with Grey Knights. These guys are like the SPARTAN IIs.

 

The problem is that they have since become SPARTAN IIIs. Mass-produced suicide units.

 

Where once a gathering of just one hundred Grey Knights was a monumental occasion with their deaths being equally catastrophic, now you can't go a battle without "The Grey Knights gathered in their hundreds. Many died that day, but the hordes of Nurgle were beaten back and Mortarion was given cardiac surgery."

 

Where once, only a squad of Grey Knights would walk and worlds fall silent, we now get Companies.

[Phoebus]

Humanity is, indeed, vast.

What isn't vast is the number of psykers.  That number is significantly reduced when you consider that only so many are taken by the Black Ships - from which the Grey Knights take prospective recruits.  Nor should it be assumed that the Grey Knights have exclusive access to even that number of psykers.  The majority of psykers taken by the Black Ships are too weak or too unstable, and are used to feed the Emperor with their souls.  From that remainder, a great number are taken to become Astropaths - a necessity if the Imperium is to operate.  From that fraction that remains, the Grey Knights must find an increasingly small percentile of potential recruits who are not only psychically capable but are also gene-seed compatible.

 

Here are two things we can take from the status quo:

 

1. The process is good enough, and the numbers large enough, for the Grey Knights to recruit sufficient the needed amount of replacements.  At any rate, I'm not sure than any source has mentioned a shortfall in their ranks.

 

2. This shouldn't be used as an excuse to overestimate psyker numbers or otherwise brush over the process necessary to bring Titan recruits.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah but number one used to be that the Grey Knights were just so good that the numbers compounded over time. Not that each individual recruitment drive was so large. That's why something like one hundred Grey Knights being killed was mind-blowing. The sort of thing just shouldn't happen. These are the guys who travel in squads not because of low numbers, but because a squad is usually all thats needed. So the kin of threat that requires 100 Grey Knights is just unthinkable. The fact that even in defeat that threat still killed 100 Grey Knights speaks volume of that threat and the fear in its resurgence.

[depthcharge12]

Yeah but number one used to be that the Grey Knights were just so good that the numbers compounded over time. Not that each individual recruitment drive was so large. That's why something like one hundred Grey Knights being killed was mind-blowing. The sort of thing just shouldn't happen. These are the guys who travel in squads not because of low numbers, but because a squad is usually all thats needed. So the kin of threat that requires 100 Grey Knights is just unthinkable. The fact that even in defeat that threat still killed 100 Grey Knights speaks volume of that threat and the fear in its resurgence.

 

Oh Angron, you bad boy killing all those grey knights.

 

 

But Mortarion, you suck wang, pfff one grey knight initiate takes you down.

 

 

The second is obviously the fluff I rage against because I agree with you Kol, the grey knights were so few and great, but the loss of one was even a crippling blow.

 

 

 

 

 

However however however, Matt Ward did one nice thing in the fluff about BAs. There was one night that the GKs came to Dante and said "hey bro, we heard this greater daemon of khorne that you don't like popped up again. You down for chips, beer, and kicking @ss?"

 

Sanguinary Gaurd and Grey Knights proceed to kick butt in a pleasing manner.

 

 

Now why can't we get a novel out of that? I would gladly pay for it, I got the other 2 GK books before

[Karthak]

One thing that bugs me about the First War for Armageddon is that people talk about Angron slaughtering all those Grey Knights on his own. He didn't. He had a dozen of the killiest Bloodthirsters in the warp with him, as well as an entire army of lesser daemons and berzerkers.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, only twelve Bloodthirsters participated in the battle, but IIRC, they were made short work of while Angron himself dealt with a decent majority of the Grey Knights before killing their leader and being banished back to the warp for a time. The rest of the Chaos forces fought the Space Wolves and Imperial Guard.

[Karthak]

Actually, only twelve Bloodthirsters participated in the battle, but IIRC, they were made short work of while Angron himself dealt with a decent majority of the Grey Knights before killing their leader and being banished back to the warp for a time. The rest of the Chaos forces fought the Space Wolves and Imperial Guard.

Only twelve Bloodthirsters is one way to put it. Another is:

 

That day, we faced twelve. The Cruor Praetoria, the twelve strongest; the twelve daemons whose lives and deeds most pleased their wretched Blood God over forty thousand years of warfare. They came on, despite the Aegis. They came because of it. It was nothing to them, less than a joke – a mere irritant that pulled at their attention. Every one of them had thousands of heresies etched under its name in the great libraries of our monastery. We were looking at the history of warfare in physical form.

 

The Grey Knights landed right in the middle of the Chaos forces. There were thousands of daemons around:

 

Everywhere around us was the clash of blades, the crash of bolters. I saw Atrayon of the First Brotherhood disembowelled by something made of claws and bone and hate. I sensed Furus of the Eighth snap out of the communion, as a Neverborn with bronze blades for arms cleaved his head from his shoulders. I saw Dymus of the Seventh Brotherhood fall with an ivory horn through his throat. His voice didn’t fade from the furious chorus – it only grew louder, harsher, as he gargled across the vox in vocal disunity. One of the Neverborn ended him before he could rise again.

 

Per The Emperor's Gift the Knights lost plenty of brothers before Angron even engaged them.

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

And after all that bloody war it didn't end until Logan grimnar had to bite a grey knights head off

[Wade Garrett]

Where those Bloodthirsters or World Eater Daemon Princes (a la Angron's old Devourer bodyguard)?

 

I'm skeptical about Hyperion's description of them as the most strongest and powerfulest Bloodthirsters there are, given the lack of Skabrand, An'ggrath, and Kha'Bhanda in their ranks.

 

And also the fact that the last time Hyperion was totally 100% percent sure he knew the identity of a Greater Daemon of Khorne it turned out he was sadly mistaken.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

its definitely not the Devourers. plus Angron hated them, he was more likely to kill them as a DP rather than make them him bodyguards.  and everything about that battle iv read, for many years, has always said Bloodthirsters. also i remember the language saying some of the strongest and most powerful, not *the most*. which would be acceptable given that the 3 you listed were absent.