Knights Errant, Dark Angels, Grey Knights Discussion

[Gentlemanloser]

 

The GK Codex is being taken too literally and out of context. It's not
written as being absolute fact. If you read the whole section, it makes
it rather clear that it is information barely recorded and mostly based
off of what is believed to be true.

 

If it's not true, then the Emperor never met 12 robed figures, Malcador never sent Titan into the Warp and Horus never began his final campaign...

 

I really don't see how you can take the passage from Page 7 as anything but the GK being made from Gene-seed taken from the Emperors flesh...

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

if he could make geneseed from beings who were born as they are (unlike astartes i mean) then technically, you should be able to create geneseed from someone like the Emp.

[Hyaenidae]

I love the history of the GK, and the formation of the Malcador's Knights Errant is pretty cool, but the whole "Gene-seed crafted from the Emp's flesh" always bugged me a bit. In my mind, it would be like trying to shove a gallon of water into a small glass. There's too much power cast in the Emp's immortal frame to be placed within a mortal body, even a powerful psyker. Hell, even being graced with a minute fraction of the Emperor's psychic gaze blinds every astropath that touches his mind; what the hell would happen if you placed his DNA into an adolesent psyker?

 

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that bit of fluff is disproven before the end of the HH series.

[GhostMalone]

Ohh yeah that's hopefully the case, I think we will encounter a high warp resistant fallen legionary soon who may be the base for the idea of the deamon hunters and will utilise the thunder warriors gene seed. Otherwise plot thread left undone

[Gentlemanloser]

Disproven?  So the BL HH books are more 'canon' than a Codex? ;)

[Hyaenidae]

Disproven? So the BL HH books are more 'canon' than a Codex?

As far as I'm concerned, yes. To me; Heresy = first person POV, what is seen happens. Codex = 10,000 years of religious pervesion of truths, half-truths, and myths, to protect your immortal soul in the GOD-Emperor's name.

All perspective and personal taste, I guess. I've abandoned my codexes for pure FW HH books, though, so what do I know? :P

[Gentlemanloser]

In that case, what about Dark Angels and Plainsworld?

[Hyaenidae]

Eep. Ain't touching the Angel's issues right now. The HH books somehow made their story more confusing; like, worse than the Alpha Legion. Which is kinda scary, if you think about it.

 

Holy crap, I figured it out. The XX Legion don't have twin Primarchs; they have TRIPLETS! Alpharius, Omegon, And Inbetweenus, who has disguised himself as the I Legion Primarch....

[Kais Klip]

Without wanting to discuss too much about the physical merits ( or rather lack thereof) of a witnessed environmental change when that silk curtain parted to reveal the stage, to me it has always been pointed through both BL literature (from Imperialman Primer's to designations used in novellas) that the codicii are literally that; the Imperium's codicii on its many enemies, written by whomever is most knowledgeable in the respected fields. A "devilfish" is not a loose translation or even remotely attributed to the name the tau use for that vehicle, it is merely an Imperial designation used alongside the information the imperium gained on that enemy. I grant you there may be a possibility of the authors forgetting that fact in some recent codicii (should you devily bastards spring any on me) but then again, "if there were no survivors, who told the tale?".

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

Disproven? So the BL HH books are more 'canon' than a Codex?

As far as I'm concerned, yes. To me; Heresy = first person POV, what is seen happens. Codex = 10,000 years of religious pervesion of truths, half-truths, and myths, to protect your immortal soul in the GOD-Emperor's name.

All perspective and personal taste, I guess. I've abandoned my codexes for pure FW HH books, though, so what do I know?

too be honest, it does seem that the HH books give more details than any codex

[Kol Saresk]

if he could make geneseed from beings who were born as they are (unlike astartes i mean) then technically, you should be able to create geneseed from someone like the Emp.

Maybe. He was created through a different process. The Emperor is literally the gestation of 10,000 very powerful, psyker souls. As far as we can tell, the Primarchs are artificial in every way, even their souls. He exists as a different type of living being than they do. We don't know if it is possible and again, taking a biased, speculative and possibly untrue source as canonical fact may not be the way to go about it. For all we know the Grey Knights are just using leftover XVII Legion gene-seed.

 

There also has to be the question of when the Emperor took the time to make this gene-seed while he was sitting on the Golden Throne trying to keep the daemons out of Terra. So far, the few instances we've seen "leave" the Golden Throne were just him psychically projecting himself somewhere else and honestly, during an event like the Heresy where he has already caught Malcador and Valdor playing Assassin's Creed, I doubt he would trust something like gene-seed creation on that level to someone else.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

the culmination of a project begun by the Emperor during the final days of the Horus Heresy

 

 

As Horus' final campaign began, the Emperor foresaw that the end of the Heresy would cost him greatly

 

 

So did the Emperor set his hands to plans that would win a wider victory from the ashes of a most personal defeat.  Malcador the Sigilite, closest of the Emperors servants, scoured the battletorn worlds of the Imperium for the men upon whose shoulders the burden of the future would be

 

 

By the time Malcador returned to the Emperor, Terra itself was under siege <snip> and come unharmed and unseen before the Emperor

 

 

In stern silence the Emperor surveyed the robed figures that Malcador had brought before him <snip> the Emperor bade Malcador proceed with the next stage of his plan

 

 

Suitable recruits had been gathered from across the span of the galaxy; some were raw and untrained, others selected in secret from the ranks of those Space Marine Legions that had remained loyal.  New supplies of gene-seed lay preserved in cryovaults

 

 

Malcador oversaw the initial creation of the Grey Knights but he could not remain to oversee thier evolution, so he selected one of the eight to lead the Chapter in years to come <snip> Titan vanished completely from its orbit, hidden from Horus

 

 

Titan rode out the tumult of the Warp whilst the rest of the galaxy endured through the last months of the Horus Heresy and the tragedy of the Emperors final battle.

 

 

Titan finally returned to its orbit in the mortal realm amidst the anarchy of the second founding

 

I hope this helps cement the timeline of the creation of the GK!

[Hyaenidae]

Is this from the same codex that says Draigo carved up Primarchs hearts like oak trees?

 

Cuz.... yeah. That kinda 'de-cements' any legitimate 'Truth' any codex holds. Um, ever.

 

Anyhoo, my bet is that all of those quotes will die a horrible death when the GK finally get covered at the end of the Heresy. Personal opinion, mind you, but BL has had fun playing merry hell with ancient myths and bringing them to life. Kinda like the old IA on the Death Guard talking about Garro's various fates, then BL making them all lies and truths at the end of FotE.

 

Or Ultramar having 500 worlds.

 

Or Thunder Warriors still breathing.

 

Or Abaddon being a likeable fellow.

 

Or Fulgrim and his pretty, talking sword.

 

Or the Alpha Legion having two bloody Primarchs.

 

Or...

[Kais Klip]

Okay there, we seem to be having some connection difficulties with 1000heathens at the moment, but we at AlphaCommunications would like to clarify his last statement to be

 

 Or the Alpha Legion having an epic primarch

Now for the weather. That is not a meteor shower, my Ultramar boys and girls.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Is this from the same codex that says Draigo carved up Primarchs hearts like oak trees?

 

Well, there's a BL book being released on that specific battle...

[Hyaenidae]

 

Is this from the same codex that says Draigo carved up Primarchs hearts like oak trees?

 

Well, there's a BL book being released on that specific battle...

 

*Begins weeping uncontrollably*

 

the 41st millenium truly is dead....

[Gentlemanloser]

Courtesy of Oiad.

In addition, many of you GK fans may already be aware that LJ Goulding is also planning to release a story covering the divisive subject of 'The Battle of Kornovin'. That's right, its that tale in which the newly-promoted Supreme Grand Master Draigo gives Daemon Primarch Mortarion *ahem* inpromptu cardiovascular surgery. It's tentatively entitled Mortarion's Heart and it's cover artwork was released last week. Here it is for those yet of you who are yet to see it:

http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/3/2055/thumb_620x2000/MORTARIONS_HEART.jpg
(Larger image can be viewed here.)

Any bets that a book entitled Mortarion's Heart, doesn't involve the name carving?

It's not that Codexes aren't factual, it's that Ward can't write internally consistent/beilveable fluff.

Also, if the Codex isn't factual, then the following isn't factual;

Malcador the Sigilite, closest of the Emperors servants, scoured the battletorn worlds of the Imperium for the men upon whose shoulders the burden of the future would be

Which contractics BL stories, like the Garro Audio Books.

And if that passage *is* factual, then there's no basis to claim that the entire Codex isn't...

[Hyaenidae]

That's....horrible! They're actually going to legitimize that fluff-turd?!?

 

*shakes head sadly* If that crap is truth, you can keep it, Gent.

[Gentlemanloser]

So, GK founded from the Emperor's Gene-seed?

 

;)

[Kol Saresk]

That's....horrible! They're actually going to legitimize that fluff-turd?!?

 

*shakes head sadly* If that crap is truth, you can keep it, Gent.

Know what the really sad part is, its being written by one of the very editors who was thinking of gutting The First Heretic all because they misread "Alpharius took command of his Legion on this date."

[Hyaenidae]

So, GK founded from the Emperor's Gene-seed?

Still no. Just because BL have proven time and time again they love breaking the mold, and turning truths into myths and vice-versa in the HH series.

I'm as stubborn as you, sir. To the death it is. :P

[Gentlemanloser]

:P

 

Except I have printed material form GW to back my view. ;)

 

Until it's retconned (either by a new Codex, or a later BL novel) shouldn't that stand?

[Perrin]

I'm starting to come around to Heathen's thinking. I had forgotten about the ending of TOD, but now I'm thinking that what other purpose could that geneseed have?

[Kol Saresk]

:P

 

Except I have printed material form GW to back my view. ;)

 

Until it's retconned (either by a new Codex, or a later BL novel) shouldn't that stand?

Since BL, FW and GW are all official fluff wuth equal standing, having GW printed fluff means when diddly squat in a "mine is more canonical" argument. Refer to AD-B's "loose canon theory". And since he's actually employed there, there is the very strong possibility he knows more than the rest of us.

[Gentlemanloser]

So if the only printed material, currently, which details the origina of the GK gene-seed is the Codex, that should have the canonical weight, right?

 

We can revisit if there's any other printed origin, like a later Codex, or a new BL novel.

 

But until such time, there should be no arguement that the GK 'dex stand.

 

Right?