Allright Gentlemen; How do we kill Taudar? (batrep page 2)

[knife&fork]

It will probably come as no surprise that we currently struggle against these two armies.

Tau have plenty of mid-high strength shooting while Eldar can put out more low AP fire on the cheap while having superior mobility. Together they make a formidable team but pure lists also give us trouble.

So how do we deal with it? That's what this thread is all about.

I'm not going to go through the common taudar lists here, I'm also going to stay away from supplements and forgeworld as the use of those will vary a lot locally. Instead let's just skip to their respective weaknesses.

Tau:

Poor Leadership

Sucks in close combat

Not as agile as Eldar, on par with fast marines

Eldar:

Often relatively low model count, linchpin models

Vulnerable to weapons that ignore cover

Not as good in close combat as marines

Leadership not as good as marines

Trying to match either of these races in terms of firepower is futile. Getting into assault is great if you can pull it off.

What does this mean in terms of list building?

There are a number of different ways to go on this, in the opening post I'm going to focus on an idea I tried with very limited success in 5th back in the days of SW and GK dominance. I'm confident that it's going to work better thanks to the new edition and more popular xenos.

Librarian fear/telepathy Spam (because the best way to win is to win without a fight! )

Librarian

Librarian

Furioso Librarian in pod

Furioso Librarian in pod

Furioso Librarian in pod

Assault squad in pod

Assault squad in pod

Allies

Farseer on bike

Windrider squad

Hemlock Wraithfighter

That's a core of 1381 pts before upgrades, plenty of points for more troops or whatever.

See where this is going?

The Idea is to spam a few powers, depending on the composition (generally mounted or not) of the enemy list. The powers in question are 'Fear of the Darkness' from our codex and/or the telepathy powers 'puppet master' and 'terrify'.

FotD has the advantage of not needing a roll to hit and lowering the ld of a target, but obviously won't work straight away on fearless units.

For telepathy our 'semi ML2' librarians have the advantage of two rolls as well as rerolling the two powers that require 2 warp charge. Failing that the primaris can be quite useful for forcing wounds on monstrous creatures.

This is by no means an 'auto win' list, if there ever was such a thing... but it's an uniquely BA approach that gives us a fighting chance against the toughest list imaginable in the current meta!

Feedback on this? Got your won ideas to share?

Spamming assault marines for example was mentioned in another thread.

[depthcharge12]

I honestly think fragoisos are the cure to everything :D but I'm probably wrong this time.

 

 

I like the out of the box thinking and I would definitely advise forcing leadership checks on the table edge hugging tau (I know, I used to be one of them)

 

However you still need something that can deal with missilesides, as they will intercept your drop pods and glance your dreads to death or blast the assault squads off. You can possibly mitigate this by placing the pod in front of the suits then have your guys hop out the other way so the pod can be blocking LoS and waste a turn of broadside shooting.

 

I think that dropping big sterngaurd squads is a good idea as you can double tap at that range and every ammo type has a use for the tau units

 

i.e.

 

Kraken for fire warriors

Dragon fire for pathfinders in cover

Hellfire for rip tides

Ap3 shots for regular suits

 

 

 

It would be a true test if you don't use any allies :)

 

If you do pick elder, then come out of left field and use guardians and bright lance/scatter laser platforms so you can have mini rending and grab objectives. Some dude won a tournament not too long ago with lots of guardians

[Argun]

Have you entertained the idea of using Guard artillery to help with these problems? They're cheap, and the small tax is easily made up with lots of scoring bodies to protect your backfield.

 

I'd suggest Colossi, as they are a great artillery piece that eats cover saves and Marines with equal ease.

[knife&fork]

Have you entertained the idea of using Guard artillery to help with these problems?

Oooooh yes.

If guard was my main I'd run two 2*colossus+griffon and 2*basilisk+griffon in my HS slots every game. With BA as a main however I don't think I can get enough from just one HS slot. A single ordnance piece or battery is too easily dealt with. Now I've never actually play tested it, but I can't make a list that I'm happy with.

I honestly think fragoisos are the cure to everything but I'm probably wrong this time.

I like the out of the box thinking and I would definitely advise forcing leadership checks on the table edge hugging tau (I know, I used to be one of them)

However you still need something that can deal with missilesides, as they will intercept your drop pods and glance your dreads to death or blast the assault squads off. You can possibly mitigate this by placing the pod in front of the suits then have your guys hop out the other way so the pod can be blocking LoS and waste a turn of broadside shooting.

I think that dropping big sterngaurd squads is a good idea as you can double tap at that range and every ammo type has a use for the tau units

i.e.

Kraken for fire warriors

Dragon fire for pathfinders in cover

Hellfire for rip tides

Ap3 shots for regular suits

It would be a true test if you don't use any allies

If you do pick elder, then come out of left field and use guardians and bright lance/scatter laser platforms so you can have mini rending and grab objectives. Some dude won a tournament not too long ago with lots of guardians

Fragioso is nice but close combat walkers die too easily VS taudar and are too slow to catch up if they run away. Terrify, puppet master and Fotd are all 24" powers which means you can find cover and hide that rear armor more easily. I think the key is to either deploy the pods extremely aggressive so that intercept shots like blasts will be difficult to place legally or pose danger to friendly units, or go for a very passive deployment where you prioritize cover and LoS blocks.

If you go for the former you can combo 'wings' with 'fear' and you should still be able to reach most things on the following turn.

I do like the idea of massed sternguard, 30 dudes with pods is a tough not to crack! Personally I don't feel like finishing another 20 sternguard, but I already have the dreads :D

As for the eldar allies I mainly wanted them to run with the theme. I was going to take rune priests at first but they don't have access to telepathy. Plus the hemlock has the spooky stick that makes it hilarious together with 'fear'.

I'd prefer to not use them as a crutch for scoring. If you don't care about that then putting more points into the bikes would be great. And maybe something fun from the HS section...

[Blindhamster]

my last game was vs tau, by turn 4 hed been tabled and i'd lost 4 models... seems to me that a huge thing was getting first turn, before he even got a go i'd killed his broadsides and 3 battlesuits, he still had a sky ray, hammerhead, bomber, dark strider, ethereal, 3 full size fire warrior units, 2 full size sniper kroot and 2 stealth suit teams, but the vast majority of it wasn't particularly dangerous to my list. The only thing I used in close combat was the death company dread with talons, which charged and wiped out a fire warrior squad that contained the ethereal:)

[Chaplain Admetus]

Tag Fear librarians with Guard and Psyker battle squads (weaken resolve)... kindly take a leadership 4 test at -2 or run away.

[Ushtarador]

The leadership list is unfortunately absolutely useless against the Serpent spam I usually encounter. You might be able to fear his Wraithknight off the board, but the serpents will ruin your day, and there's no way to handle them.

 

A good counter might be stormraven spam, 3-4 are tough to handle, and being assault vehicles you even get into melee with your guys. 5 ASM can do a lot of damage versus tau or eldar if they actually get into melee. You should be able to deal enough damage to cripple his anti-air and mop up the rest.

 

Also: Imperial Bastion is pure awesome. It blocks line of sight, is very hard to destroy for both armies, and you can hide an objective behind it to sit on without being shot.

[knife&fork]

The leadership list is unfortunately absolutely useless against the Serpent spam I usually encounter. You might be able to fear his Wraithknight off the board, but the serpents will ruin your day, and there's no way to handle them.

 

For mech you go with 'puppet master' ;)

[Sanguine Eternal]

My first game against Taudar ended in a pretty gross tabling by turn 4 with my 3 fragiosos, 3 baal preds, and some minimal troop choices.  I have had similar games vs pure Tau lists, but I find pure eldar give me a run for my money.

3 Fragiosos in pods is scary, and can be game changing 1st round of shooting.  They don't often survive past turn 1, but when they do, they own the game.  My last game vs Necrons for example.  2 fragiosos totaled for 27 dead necron warriors, before half came back at the end of the first turn.  But Tau and Eldar aren't so fortunate with their coming back from the dead BS.  For the lists that have interceptor, I place my fragiosos in spots partially behind cover so that interceptor unit has no LoS, but giving me an adequate kill radius for something else.  I also always include DWML on all my pods.  That gives 4 target priorities for the enemy their first turn, leaving your jump marines a turn to get closer, relatively less harmed.

I have a game tomorrow against an Eldar list, I'll let you know how it goes.

EDIT:  And my list for tomorrow w/ 3 fragiosos instead of a DC blender dread, and =][= will be my warlord.
EDIT part 2:  Got a text from the store manager, closed today, my game with the Eldar with have to wait...

[Jorre]

Farseers must be disembarked in order to cast powers on other units.

 

This makes them extremely vulnerable to fragioso in pods unless they are on jetbikes

[Jolemai]

Sanguine, you are aware that the DWML can't fire the turn it arrives, right?

[Ushtarador]

The leadership list is unfortunately absolutely useless against the Serpent spam I usually encounter. You might be able to fear his Wraithknight off the board, but the serpents will ruin your day, and there's no way to handle them.

For mech you go with 'puppet master'

Assuming you roll it on enough guys, actually hit the power, and then actually kill something with the serpent. I'm not saying it won't work, but it isn't reliable at all, especially if you don't get first turn :/

Fragiosos are awesome versus Tau and to some degree versus taudar, but I found them rather lacking against pure eldar. The serpent shield and jink save make it almost impossible to kill even one serpent when you arrive, and fragiosos are very easy to kill if you can shoot them in the rear.

[knife&fork]

Assuming you roll it on enough guys, actually hit the power, and then actually kill something with the serpent. I'm not saying it won't work, but it isn't reliable at all, especially if you don't get first turn :/

 

Well you have 12 rolls on 6 librarians to make it, and on 5 of those you get to reroll 1/3 of the results. Not sure though why it would matter if I get first turn or not when everything can be held back? 

 

And hey, some chance is better than no chance. With a 'normal' list your only hope is for the eldar player to roll like crap all game. If you on the other hand can make one of his serpents wreck another serpent, or a wraith knight kill another wraith knight you have a very good start!  

 

EDIT: There's 600 pts to go before you hit 2k on that list, so you can use it plug the gaps. For example If you expect the need to put a few extra glances on wave serpents you can bring a quadgun and TLAC dreads. They don't need to kill vehicles all by themselves to be effective. 

[Ushtarador]

I actually just now saw that your furiosos have drop pods - are you sure this is possible? o0 ^^ always thought they couldn't.

 

Every librarian has a 50% chance to roll puppet master, resulting in an average 3 puppet masters. One of those will miss, and if you didn't get first turn, the eldar will have a 3+ cover save and the serpent shield against the first puppet master. Also, since the dreads can't pod, they won't be in range before turn 2 or even 3. I agree that it would have a decent shot if the podding would work though!

 

As I mentioned above, I think a stormraven spam list has a decent chance to taking eldar out, as you can overwhelm 2-3 serpents with concentrated fire, leaving him with not enough anti-air to deal with them. Add in space marines for a storm talon and grav guns to take down wraith knights and such and it might work quite well.

[Jolemai]

Yes they can. Dedicated transport entry for the Furioso Dreadnought is a Drop Pod. Furioso Librarian Dreadnought is simply an upgrade for the basic entry.

 

If Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts can not take pods, then neither can Blood Champions in our Honour Guard or any Veteran Sergeant upgrade in the other Space Marine Codicies, etc.

[Ushtarador]

hmhm I see, I just extrapolated from the restriction that a furioso libby can't take a frag cannon or extra armor. That's very nice :) 

 

In that case, you will need some luck, but if you get off some crucial hits it will be very nice, I might even try that sometime :D

[knife&fork]

Every librarian has a 50% chance to roll puppet master, resulting in an average 3 puppet masters. One of those will miss, and if you didn't get first turn, the eldar will have a 3+ cover save and the serpent shield against the first puppet master.  

 

While you do get the 'deny the witch' roll you don't get to take any saves against 'puppet master' since it doesn't cause a wound, pen or glance. Remember that we don't save hits in this game.

[Ushtarador]

But he gets the save against the weapons you shoot with the serpent or wraith knight, that's what I meant :) A lot of it also depends whether your tournament allows cover saves for vehicles against weapons that ignore cover (it's an unholy discussion, personally I'd say no, but RAW quite clearly states yes).

[redshadow]

i have a list that i use for taudar, he uses 3 riptides and a maxed out dark reaper squad with exarch in a landing pad very very nasty.

 

i've found going first is key and corbulo can help win first turn.

 

been able to cross the battlefield fast is also key getting marines in combat before thier shot to pieces, fast transports do this.

 

the 1850pts list i use :-

 

HQ  (250pts)

Mephiston

 

Elites  (105pts)

Corbulo

 

Elites  (185pts)

6 Sternguard

w/Drop Pod

 

Troops  (225pts)

10 Assault Marines

w/2 Melta Guns/Rhino

 

Troops  (225pts)

10 Assault Marines

w/2 Melta Guns/Rhino

 

Troops  (130pts)

5 Assault Marines

w/Melta Guns/Rhino

 

Troops  (130pts)

5 Assault Marines

w/Melta Guns/Rhino

 

Support  (150pts)

5 Devastator Marines

w/4 Plasma Cannons

 

Support  (150pts)

5 Devastator Marines

w/4 Plasma Cannons

 

Support  (200pts)

Stormraven

w/Twin Lascannons/Twin Multi-Melta

 

Fortification  (100pts)

Aegis Defence Line

w/Quad Gun

 

the game always hinges on first turn, if you get first turn you can deploy the aegis defence line so when you charge the rhinos forward they can hide behind it, getting thier cover saves the following turn, this also prevent the taudar from blasting your marines of the table because they have to take the tanks out first. if the rhino's do get popped then get the marine into combat asap. supported by the plasma cannons first turn,

second turn you can move the rhinos forward again if needed or disembark ready for a 3rd turn charge supported by corbulo + sternguard and the stormraven.

mephiston is dependant on los blocking terrain, if ther's loads the he can be deployed from the off, otherwise he ride's his personal stormraven into battle.

 

anyways this is what i've been using lately sometimes good sometimes not, but the list is very fun to play (rhino rushing is always fun).

[knife&fork]

But he gets the save against the weapons you shoot with the serpent or wraith knight, that's what I meant A lot of it also depends whether your tournament allows cover saves for vehicles against weapons that ignore cover (it's an unholy discussion, personally I'd say no, but RAW quite clearly states yes).

I see. Well at least the shield ignores cover and if you use the wraith knight to shoot another wraith knight it's probably 5+ at best. Got a page reference for the second part?

EDIT: Let's just say that if a Taudar player want to argue that ignore cover doesn't work on vehicles I'll gladly oblige :P They'll be far worse off than me with such a ruling.

[Sanguine Eternal]

I wanted to point out about the whole SR spam.  In my games vs Eldar, my ravens have been blown out of the sky constantly due to the Eldars re-roll this, re-roll that, oh I might as re-roll these dice while I'm at it BS.  They don't need skyfire if they have a million dice to re-roll while hitting you, and those 3 ravens will fall before doing little damage.  Just saying from my personal experience, I wouldn't do it, and I fielded 2 ravens that game.  Oh Eldar shenanigans.

I find playing against Taudar, Tau, and Eldar, you need to bring the fight to them.  You can't just camp on objectives or you'll get shot to pieces.  2 or 3 riptides in a list?  I know its an expensive option, but DC w/ jp's, and a couple fists are king at bringing them down.  With your fragiosos in their backfield burning all their fire warriors and pathfinders, the riptides are open for assault from your DC as they jump from cover and pound their fishy faces in.  You may lose all your fragiosos, you may not.  That's the nature of the beast when you pod in anyways.  Turn 1 is also pretty crucial podding in.

[t4play]

I wanted to point out about the whole SR spam. In my games vs Eldar, my ravens have been blown out of the sky constantly due to the Eldars re-roll this, re-roll that, oh I might as re-roll these dice while I'm at it BS. They don't need skyfire if they have a million dice to re-roll while hitting you, and those 3 ravens will fall before doing little damage. Just saying from my personal experience, I wouldn't do it, and I fielded 2 ravens that game. Oh Eldar shenanigans.

 

I find playing against Taudar, Tau, and Eldar, you need to bring the fight to them.

 

Yep I've had the same against my sons tau the SR's are packed away now and get a little more success with razor/rhino/ predator lists fast and in his face

[knife&fork]

 

I find playing against Taudar, Tau, and Eldar, you need to bring the fight to them.  You can't just camp on objectives or you'll get shot to pieces.  2 or 3 riptides in a list?  I know its an expensive option, but DC w/ jp's, and a couple fists are king at bringing them down.  

 

The thing I've found is that you really need to have the numbers for that to work, particularly with a pure Eldar or Eldar main. Common (good) units like windrider jetbikes and warp spiders are insanely fast. If you don't have board coverage you'll never catch them in assault, or even get to shoot at them with your 12" guns. 

 

So going for something expensive like jump DC is probably worse than just spamming assault marines. 

 

Wave serpents are also troublesome because even if you catch it you'll rarely manage to destroy it in the shooting phase. Thus making sure that the cargo will get to shoot at your unit for an extra turn. Not too bad (besides the fact that you are likely stuck in the open) if it's a barebones squad of guardians, worse if it's a unit of dire avengers or fire dragons.  

 

Preferably even if you want to spam jumpers you should have some kind of supporting unit capable of taking hull points off the serpents. 

[Sanguine Eternal]

Glad it isn't just me then..  I've been pondering how a 10 man unit of sternguard w/ combi flamers in a pod would do against Taudar.  With a Xenos =][= in the list with that relic for buffs against whatever Xenos are you are facing would be pretty handy.  Tau gives Furious Charge, Eldar gives you split fire.  Mix that in with 2 Fragiosos in pods...  That's a lot of dead stuff turn 1.  Throw in 2 tac squads in pods for 5 pods total.

So @ 1747pts you can get...

 

=][= w/ conversion beamer, Tome of Vrethic, power armour, 3 servo skulls and Divination for 137pts. (Warlord) (accompanies scouts)
 

HQ: Epistolary w/ infernus pistol - 165pts (w/ Sternguard in pod)

ELITE: Fragioso w/ hvy flamer, magna grapple, in pod x2 - 370pts

9 Sternguard w/ combi flamers, melta bombs in pod - 285pts

TROOP: 10 Scouts w/ snipers, camo cloaks - 170pts
Tactical squad w/ missile launcher, flamer, melta bombs in pod x2 - 420pts

HEAVY SUPPORT: Storm Raven w/ TLAC, TLMM - 200pts

Everything auto has Furious Charge, and split fire.  Gross.

[Sanguine Eternal]

 

 

I find playing against Taudar, Tau, and Eldar, you need to bring the fight to them.  You can't just camp on objectives or you'll get shot to pieces.  2 or 3 riptides in a list?  I know its an expensive option, but DC w/ jp's, and a couple fists are king at bringing them down.  

 

The thing I've found is that you really need to have the numbers for that to work, particularly with a pure Eldar or Eldar main. Common (good) units like windrider jetbikes and warp spiders are insanely fast. If you don't have board coverage you'll never catch them in assault, or even get to shoot at them with your 12" guns. 

 

So going for something expensive like jump DC is probably worse than just spamming assault marines. 

 

Wave serpents are also troublesome because even if you catch it you'll rarely manage to destroy it in the shooting phase. Thus making sure that the cargo will get to shoot at your unit for an extra turn. Not too bad (besides the fact that you are likely stuck in the open) if it's a barebones squad of guardians, worse if it's a unit of dire avengers or fire dragons.  

 

Preferably even if you want to spam jumpers you should have some kind of supporting unit capable of taking hull points off the serpents. 

 

I see what you're saying, I'm just going by some of my personal games against them, and they've done pretty good.  Warp Spiders are insanely fast, but not as fast a a drop pod with a fragioso dropping on top of them.  If you don't take them out earlier on, they will make for a tough game.  The problem for me facing pure Eldar lists is guardian spam.  They ruin DC's day.  I haven't faced them yet with my current list I'm ironing out for an upcoming tourney, but I bet it will give them a run for their money.