Brother Heinrich Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Chaos Whirlwind Scorpius would amaaaaaaazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Thats one I expect, just give it the relic rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 you know, I'm not that interested in the special FW vehicles...MUCH more so in the rules that this book may bring to the standart CSM codex vehicles. That's... not really now Forgeworld operates. At least, not to this point. Sure, they could do a complete 180 on that, but based an previous products it is extremely unlikely that there will be any changes what so ever to the rules of models in the codex. We may see one or two CSM vehicles reprinted as-is in the renegade list, but I wouldn't expect any changes to them other than choosing vehicle upgrades from that list instead of the CSM list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted April 5, 2014 Author Share Posted April 5, 2014 choosing vehicle upgrades from that list instead of the CSM list. exactly! the legacies of war from IA 2 2nd ed. lend precedence. if we get a list like that ("dedication of x") that we can buy for any CSM helbrute/defiler/forgefiend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 choosing vehicle upgrades from that list instead of the CSM list. exactly! the legacies of war from IA 2 2nd ed. lend precedence. if we get a list like that ("dedication of x") that we can buy for any CSM helbrute/defiler/forgefiend... That's exactly what I'm saying won't happen. Such wouldn't apply to 'any' vehicle, only to vehicles purchased as part of a renegades detachment. Ie, you'd need to take the vehicle as an ally, it wouldn't change ones in your CSM detachments. Also, they're not going to change codex unit entries, and helbrutes, forgefiends, and maulerfiends don't have vehicle armoury access in their entries to begin with, so you can likely disregard that possibility for them entirely, so the only one you could even hope for is the Defiler, and if you want to take an allied detachment for a marked defiler, then you can already do so via the soul grinder in a daemons detachment. And that's even assuming that vehicle marks would be done through an armoury list instead of within the individual unit entries of the vehicles, which is how FW has always done them, and likely how they'll continue to do them here. If they took the marks out of the unit entries to put them in a renegade vehicle armory, then CSM detachments would lose access to marks on their contemptors and decimators and so on, and I doubt that will happen. So, all in all, do not expect this product to add vehicle marks to CSM codex vehicles. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is wildly unlikely. IA books are to publish up to date rules for FW products, they are not for re-writing or adding to the rules for GW products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaolin_Monkey Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Plus having one single point cost for marking every single vehicle is not likely something they would do. There is too much variation on the effect it would have across the board. Mostly I'm looking forward to the renegades list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 The renegades list is what I'm looking forward to as well. Fixed dreadclaw/kharybdis would be nice, but I don't expect that. I'm also looking forward to the mentioned 40k chaos era options on heresy vehicles to reflect 10k years in the Eye, but the main attraction for me is that renegades list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Nah I do not expect much either. Perhaps an update for the renegade militia, but that what use are to us Plague Ogryns when you field Spawn. Also some new rules for the superheavies but still not on par with the loyalist counterparts. Oh we might even get a mark or two here and there but nothing to write home about. Sadly I expect little more than some new fluff, perhaps any army template or two, which in true Chaos fashion will be a running joke compared to the loyalist options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 There have been significant options from forgeworld in the past. Storm Eagles, Spartans, Giant spawn. Chaos Fire Raptors are, if anything, better than their loyalist counterparts, as are the FW chaos titans. The chaos-specific FW options - plague drones, plague hulks, etc - have generally been interesting and decent. Yes, some chaos offerings from FW in the past have been loyalist or heresy stuff with important special rules dropped for nothing, but Mr. Hoare specifically discussed adding chaos specific special rules and options to vehicles in this book instead of just dropping the imperial specific stuff, so it seems they're at least trying to acknowledge and address even that complaint, so the outright bitterness towards this book even existing seems frankly unreasonable. The Vraks renegade lists in the pasts have been fun and fluffy, and a much better thematic fit for chaos armies than allied imperial guard, and the only thing stopping me from using them today is how painfully out of date they are, so yes, even 'just an update' to the FW renegade rules is enough to make this a very exciting book for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 And should you prove true this is yet another book that a Chaos player has to buy in order to float around another few months of gametime. So Codex Chaos Space Marines + Codex Daemons + Crimson Slaughter + IA.... hmm are we not just looking a price worth a new army just for books, and still to play an army that even so will still struggle? While a loyalist player has all he needs in Codex Space Marines and then one of those supplemental books should he wish to add more flavor... Not only that, he even spares a lot of money since most of his allies have some really good bundle options and their battleforce far exceeds ours in usefulness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 The loyalist player also needs to buy an IA book if they want to use their FW options, so no, I don't see any difference their, either. And let's not kid ourselves - the loyalist marine codex is funner and cooler than ours, but it isn't better. They aren't Tau. They aren't Eldar. They aren't even Daemons. For all the loyalist marines get all the attention and models and support, they don't get to win games. I mean, honestly, as frustrating as the challenge situation may be between our characters and theirs, have you really ever actually lost a game against them? Their anti-air options are weak, and the drake nukes 90% of their codex so hard it's not even close to fair. They have to ally Tau for anti-air just to have a hope of standing up to a single unit from our book, and the rest of our stuff, whether that stuff is mace princes or spawn/mauler/juggerlord rush or, honestly, anything really, is no walk in the park for them either. And if they do manage to best you thanks to that air support, then it's the Tau, not the Space Marines, that you lost to. Loyalist marines are like the only faction we don't have problems beating, unless they're allied out the nose with Tau and Inquisitors, and then it's the Tau and Inquisitors that are giving you a hard time, not the loyalist marines. I agree that our codex is poorly designed, and that the loyalist book is better designed, but it is not because they have an easier time winning games than we do, because they don't. As for purchasing books, the codeces are the same price. The supplements are the same price if you want them, but they're far from necessary. Crimson Slaughter is not a major upgrade to basic CSMs and certainly cannot be considered obligatory. It's one bloody divination sorc. That's all that entire book is, mechanically. If you like the slaughter for the fluff or, gods help you, possessed? Then sure, whatever, but if you payed fifty bucks for a single divination sorc, then that's on you. You feel like you had to buy a book for allies? Well, welcome to 6e. I won't say it isn't dumb, but if you think loyalists don't need to buy another codex for their own allies, then I'm not sure you've actually tried playing with their book in 6e, or seen it played. Because, again, their anti flier is quite weak, and constitutes a major flaw, especially against drakes. So they have to buy the same books as us, for the same price as us, and the only difference is that we don't like how Kelly wrote our book. Well, so be it? I mean, I don't disagree with that? But that's bitterness to direct at Kelly, or at our book, and has nothing to do with an IA book updating chaos options and renegade lists from Forgeworld. Having more options, having, potentially, some actual battle brothers that aren't just more chaos marines, having the 40k chaos versions of legion vehicles actually have their own special rules instead of just losing machine spirit, that's all good. If you're bitter about the codex, fine, so am I, but that doesn't belong in this thread. I'd say take it to the complaint thread, but that was closed, but regardless, it doesn't belong here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Centurions+cortez or/and grav bike armies are rather limiting our model choice a lot. They are a very good alfa strike army and they can soak up helldrakes and kill them with their centurions+own flyers . I would never go as far as to say that we have an auto win against them . Crimson Slaughter is not a major upgrade to basic CSMs and certainlycannot be considered obligatory. It's one bloody divination sorc. well one divi sorc is why many marines pick ultras as main or ally [depends if they play a cent spam or biker spam list or something else]. CS also make the nurgle lord better and don't forget that compering to the CS codex the csm codex is codex brand+ax+mace [out of which one is for a meh khorn lord , one is mostly for DPs and the third is ok , but only if community says ok to switching combi bolter on bike]. gamewise divination carries more weight then 3 relics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 But not enough more to make the CS an obligatory purchase for CSMs in general (while C:CSM is an obligatory purchase for CS use). And while SMs aren't an auto-win for us, I would certainly argue that it's an uphill battle for them, especially if they aren't bringing their own inquisition & other allies, so if anything they have to pay more for their rules than we do, since they have that inquisition dataslate to get in addition to the standard codex / allied codex / optional supplement. And before you say that it's not fair that they have an inquisition dataslate detachment to begin with, Tenebris needs to stop and acknowledge that he can't have it both ways. You can't simultaneously say that it's unfair that loyalists get more options that they have to pay extra for, and then complain that it's unfair when we have to pay extra for our own extra options. I agree that the sheer number of rules sources players need to purchase and haul around in 6e is getting absurd, but that's not a problem specific to chaos marines or indicative of unfair treatment thereof. Getting an IA book updating our FW options, including an updated renegades list, is a good thing. It isn't something in and of itself to complain about about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Agree, Mali, but what about all those gameclubs that have a ban of Forgeworld units and publications. And my argue is that diversity, while a costly one, is an option available with standard GW publications to our loyalist brethren, while we have to resort to even more arcane means to actually field something useful and characterful. And while you argue that the marines have a hard time against us, it is only us, they can do perfectly fine against the rest of the armies. For a starting player the Space Marines are a bargain, their battleforce is awesome, their codex is very fun to play and field and should one expand GW supports them in many many ways. We on the other hand are living on borrowed time, borrowed since to keep our heads floating we need to invest in all kinds of supplements to make it work. Also should this book prove solid, this means that it will become mandatory for a competitive play. Not only that but a copious investment in Forge World models which are still very expensive compared to the GW stuff. And there is a considerable danger that all this investment will prove wasteful once the loyalist get a similar FW book. Question is, why this disparity of treatment? On a side note you can easily field Inquisitors without much fuss but, FW units? I think not. And with Tau being hot almost every gameclub has some access to them. On the other side if I want to play something FW related, first I have to find an agreement with my gameclub, second I have to buy a book which will be valid in one club and invalid in another, third I have to buy a FW model which is still expensive for what it is worth. And then you have a Space Marine who simply buys some Flagellants to make them Inquisition Henchmen, buys a Knight and at best knocks some money for Tau, but he can field all the three without asking any permission and any problems when comes to proxy, in a legit tournament scene. So it is a risk, is it not? Zie point iz zimple mein friend, bankrolling any loyalist faction is much much easier than attempting to have a modern and competitive chaos army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Tenebris, on 05 Apr 2014 - 12:59, said: Agree, Mali, but what about all those gameclubs that have a ban of Forgeworld units and publications. I do not at all in my anticipation for this product mean to imply that I think it will or even can fix the problems in our codex. No amount of forgeworld support will do that, in part because some tables still don't allow it and in part because the GW material is still the primary source. Game clubs that don't use forgeworld obviously won't allow such content. A new FW book updating FW chaos options will mean nothing more to them than those options meant to begin with. Even then, it's not something to get bitter over, then, since other factions also miss out on their FW stuff. If you don't use FW, then the forthcoming book doesn't warrant any more comment than 'sounds like it could be cool, but my group doesn't allow FW, so oh, well.' Quote And my argue is that diversity, while a costly one, is an option available with standard GW publications to our loyalist brethren, while we have to resort to even more arcane means to actually field something useful and characterful. What does this complaint have to do with this thread? Why is 'it doesn't retroactively fix the GW codex for free while giving me a backrub' a valid criticism of an Index Astartes book? Quote Also should this book prove solid, this means that it will become mandatory for a competitive play. Not only that but a copious investment in Forge World models which are still very expensive compared to the GW stuff. 1) no, they're not, not overall, not anymore, not always. The FW myrmidons, for instance, are about $30 less than new GW oblits would be expected to be, assuming that rumor turns out to be true. And conversion & counts as is always an option. 2) If you're serious about competitive play, then you don't get to complain about having to buy new stuff, because the competitive meta changes with every few releases, requiring new units if not entirely new army builds. 3) If your only complaint about this book is that it isn't a new CSM codex, then that's not a valid complaint. Quote And there is a considerable danger that all this investment will prove wasteful once the loyalist get a similar FW book. Question is, why this disparity of treatment? They loyalists already have their equivalent book. It's called "Imperial Armour Volume 2, 2nd edition: War Machines of the Adeptus Astartes". It came out last year. If anything, this book will remove an existing disparity in support, not create a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 But not enough more to make the CS an obligatory purchase for CSMs in general (while C:CSM is an obligatory purchase for CS use). And while SMs aren't an auto-win for us, I would certainly argue that it's an uphill battle for them, especially if they aren't bringing their own inquisition & other allies, so if anything they have to pay more for their rules than we do, since they have that inquisition dataslate to get in addition to the standard codex / allied codex / optional supplement. And before you say that it's not fair that they have an inquisition dataslate detachment to begin with, Tenebris needs to stop and acknowledge that he can't have it both ways. You can't simultaneously say that it's unfair that loyalists get more options that they have to pay extra for, and then complain that it's unfair when we have to pay extra for our own extra options. I agree that the sheer number of rules sources players need to purchase and haul around in 6e is getting absurd, but that's not a problem specific to chaos marines or indicative of unfair treatment thereof. Getting an IA book updating our FW options, including an updated renegades list, is a good thing. It isn't something in and of itself to complain about about. I don't know if someone is better without any drawbacks [can have the old relics through ally, can have warlord traits through HQs , all same units+troops possessed etc] , seems obligatory to me . I have yet to see an imperial army without cortez since the inq codex came out. So maybe I have a different view on most haves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Man Legacies for the chaos vehicles would be awesome as well. I'd love to see a bit of point discount on the Chaos Contemptor as well as the option to take a Cyclone Missile launcher instead of the Havoc Launcher. Whirlwind Scorpius or traitor Sicarius would be awesome as well, but I have that vile feeling I get in my gut when I start to hope for something awesome. It usually means there's no way in hell FW would be that cool. Regardless I'm sure a version of Legacies will make it in there, and we'll probably see points costs shifted on several units as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disease Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 I don't understand the point of the Decimator as it currently stands. I'd like that ironed out for sure, and blight drones cheaper or better BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valaskjalf Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 I don't understand the point of the Decimator as it currently stands. I'd like that ironed out for sure, and blight drones cheaper or better BS I actually wish the Decimator were changed from Walker to MC...it costs the points of a Riptide (or more) and eventhough it is survivable making it T6 with 4W would probably have been a better route for them - paying 200+ pts for something that can be exploded by a single melta is a bit much and making it a MC you can get rid of all the Unholy Vigour etc which would perhaps not be needed. Im quite happy the way it's performed for me (esp. with DS added to IA:Apoc rules), but its a lot of points for sure. Also really hope for 3HP blight drones...they are ridiculously puny and Shrouded doesn't help much against many of the big guns out there today. I think if they were dropped down to 100pts they could be seen as more "dispensable" and it would make their formation more viable - Currently its 450pts to field a formation and 300pts would make much more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Fulgrim Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 The part of this rumor which caught my eye was this: "The second example was the Class M2KB (sic) Landraider. Instead of the Explorator Augatory (sic) Web which is designed for scanning enemy positions and coordinating forces, however due to the corruptions of the warp this is now used to intercept enemy positions and thwart their movements." 1. Is there currently some FW book that allows MK2B Landraiders to carry an Explorator Augury Web? (The FW LR Proteus and Chaos LR:P both now get the Explorator Augury Web special rule as part of their basic loadout, but this is the first time I've heard of the more modern LR supposedly also having this option.) 2. As currently written, the Augury Web rule lets either version of the Proteus do two things: 1. Deny enemy infiltrations within 24" and 2. Either reroll friendly reserve rolls (passed or failed) or apply -1 to enemy reserve rolls. So as it stands right now a Chaos Proteus can already "intercept enemy positions" (deny infilitrations) and "thwart" enemy movements (-1 to enemy reserves) in addition to "coordinating forces" (rerolling friendly reserves, which is probably the best part of this special rule.) Which makes me think that either: 1. This portion of the rumor is off or 2. That they're going to further nerf the Chaos version of the Proteus (which of course already loses POTMS for a mere 10 point break on the cost.) Hopefully it'll be the former vice the latter, but with FW you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Yeah I still do not understand the loss of the machine spirit. Everything we see in the novels shows that all of the traitor's equipment still has a machine spirit, granted it's a cantankerous, violent spirit, but when is it ever not that? I mean look at freaking Titans and warships like the Covenant of Blood, still have a burning violent machine spirit like always, same goes for the :cussing landraider in the Night Lords series. Man, being a Chaos player is tiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted April 6, 2014 Author Share Posted April 6, 2014 3.5 Chaos Landraiders had PotMS with a daemonic name. just sayin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 3.5 Chaos Landraiders had PotMS with a daemonic name. just sayin'... "The Infernal Engine"...lovely times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 remember, we're the bad guys and GW wants to push sales of the kiddie kits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 ...oh the 3.5, I had a nice reading of it yesterday, call it nostalgia... but that was a codex! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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