[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[Slips]

Oh boy! YOU MEAN NONE OF YOUR OPPONENTS WILL HAVE ARMORED CERAMITE!?!?!?!

 

Time to bring out the Melta Weapons! :p

[Nusquam]

It can be. But the lower the points the bigger the advantage a 40k army has in terms of optimization. The golden zone is at 2k+ points. That's when 30k armies and 40k ones alike can shine.

[Hammer of Olympia]

Yes , but 1000 points will be like an introduction game with RG,so after I'm familiar with the army I'll start expanding.

I have a ton of Beaky Marine from the Rogue trader line,I'll use those as my Tactical squad

 

UPDATE:

 

Got to paint one for test scheme,and I've gotta say the old RT Space marine lack detail.

I think I'll wait for the Raven guard legion upgrade set to come out

Edited February 18, 2015 by Hammer of Olympia

[Tiger9gamer]

that looks awesome =D don't know if anyone posted this but FW released the Delagatus rules for downloads, so you can use the small-point-ish rite of war for your games.

 

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/A/Autilon.pdf

[depthcharge12]

Why does nearly any RG list I see include Maun?

[defl0]

The delagatus is pretty solid, as vets are pretty solid. Compared to tacs with an extra ccw, vets only pay 10 points for their special rule. Granted they lose FOTL. There is something to be said about 60 fearless infiltrating marines with 2 ccws, bolter, melta bombs and a couple hidden power axes per squad. It's less than 1500 points, and threatens everything but fliers.

 

60 melta bombs is a night mare, especially on fleeting marines. And Fearless in like having free chaplains everywhere. I can't overstate how strong this is. 

 

Plus your elites are wide open 4 like 4 units of mor deythan combi flamers in rhinos. And all that fits in 2500 pts. Or you have your heavy still open for 3 scorpious or something.

[Slips]

Why does nearly any RG list I see include Maun?

Because of all the bonuses he gives in conjunction with Decapitation Strike. For barely the cost of a naked Preator you get Soooooo many buffs.

[defl0]

Why does nearly any RG list I see include Maun?

 

Couple reasons.

 

1. RG loses the praetor race. We don't really have the wargear or special rules to go up against other legion praetors. 

2. With decapitating strike (which is a solid ROW), we go first roughly 80% of the time. 

3. He's a force multiplier to fluffy RG units. Think drop pods, jumper packs, fliers. Even standard mooks if you put cameleoline on him. 

4. He has great fluff

6. He rocks a mohawk 

7. He has a garage of rides. This is often over looked but, you can do things like drop pod in Mor deythan, which you normally can't do.

8. He also makes a lot of the other ROWs really good. Ur entire army is basically on the table turn 2 with orbital strike, angel's wrath, etc. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Why do you want to go first as a reserves based list? You want to be going second as it's one less shooting phase and assault phase to face, as well as the last turn objective shuffle.

 

Maun can take a Drop Pod, but that doesn't mean that the Mor Deythan can take it either.

 

 

 

The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).

 

Maun can be joined by IC's, but he cannot actually transport the Mor Deythan, as they're a seperate unit. Yet another case of FW not knowing their own rules, I think. Or maybe intentional. 

[defl0]

1. So it depends on the reserve list you are running. If you are running fliers (which are gun boats in 30k), you want your minis killing as soon as possible, so they can't shoot back. Turn one kill anti air with infiltratratrs.. Turn 2 raptors kill transports. Turn three you mop up passengers. rest of the game you have air supremacy.

 

This is counter intuitive to a drop pod list, which is what you are talking about. Think of it more like a max threat over load list. Infiltrators is what changes the list concept. Ur basically alpha striking two turns in a row. (Beta strike?)

 

2. The Combined reserve rule over rides it. When an IC joins a unit, they are the same unit. The rule you quoted stops the mor deythan riding in the drop pod without Maun. So he has to be in it for the rules to work. 

 

"Combined reserve units. During deployment, when deciding which units are kept in Reserves, you must specify if any of the ICs in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in reserve are embarked on any transport in reserve, in which case they arrive together. blah blah blah." pg 135

Edited February 20, 2015 by defl0

[Hesh Kadesh]

1. That is irrelevant of whether you first or second though. You have the same number of shooting phases after all. His rerolls are good to ensure that, sure. But regardless of either having gone first or second. Going second, your hard hitting units coming from reserve face 33% less incoming damage.

 

2. No, combined reserve rule does not override it. Dedicated Transport requires that only the unit it was bought for (plus IC's) can take the DT. The Mor Deythan is not the unit it was bought for, it was Maun. Drop Pod Assault also requires that units who have purchased Drop Pods as transports must always be deployed in them.

 

So, Maun with a Drop Pod must deploy by Drop Pod. Dedicated Transport requires only the unit it was bought for can Deep Strike in it. The Mor Deythan is a seperate unit. The IC joins a unit, the IC is a seperate unit; check the IC rule - "Some characters have the [iC] special rule. which allows them to join OTHER units" (emphasis mine).

 

The combined reserve units rule has 2 parts;

 

- IC's joining a unit arrive together

- Units in reserve arriving in a transport vehicle roll together. 

 

So, IC's join a unit; the Mor Deythan. The Mor Deythan is then the unit, not the IC. If that's not enough, then "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters." So, he's considered a part of the unit for all rules purposes. I.e, the Mor Deythan is not the unit that the Dedicated Transport was bought for, and thence cannot be deployed in that manner.

 

I'll admit right now, that if someone wanted to run Maun by the way you're stating, I wouldn't actually complain; I'm not that much of a Rules Lawyer; however I enjoy reading into the rules and finding out things like this (and spend a bit of time doing it, because FW are notorious for not actually knowing what rules they're on about; check out their latest release for the Consuls; they grant Monstrous Creatures an upgrade which causes Fear (MC's already cause Fear) for example.

[defl0]

 

1. Kinda. Again the difference is infiltrate. With infiltrating rhinos, all my units start on the table, as opposed to having half come in turn one, like i would with drop pods. I also don't get shot up by interceptor which is given out like candy in 30k. So if i infiltrate, I potentially get twice the shooting power turn one. And units I kill do 0 damage for 100% of the turns. I also get to deploy after my opponent giving me the opportunity for side armor shots, moral checks taken close to a board edge, pinning transports and no smoke launchers. 

 

But to your point, I do open myself up to the risk of getting seized on and the potential of taking an extra turn of fire for those units starting on the board. In short RG are a great reserve army, but the combo of reserves, nova damage and infiltrate is what makes them really strong. So I build my lists to try to maximize those strengths when using Maun. 

 

2. 1+1 does not equal 2 by the rules. 1+1 = 1 by the rules. I know. Weird. But follow the logic.

 

The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).

 

So ask the questions. Is the unit that purchased it being deployed in it? Yes. Is another another unit being deployed in it? No. Why? Because vehicles can only have one unit deployed in it. To interpret it as two units would mean you could never embark both of them in a vehicle. LOLz. Right? So you can't really go down that road

 

Plus you can join additional characters... And it still means I can't put the Mor Deythan in it alone, which is the true intention of the rule. 

 

Anyway, if you don't agree, let's move the discussion to the rules thread and keep this about Raven Gurad tactics. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by defl0

[Nusquam]

Before we get into a rules debacle let's look at this from a common sense point of view:

Do you, for any logical reason, want to limit Maun to being along in a drop pod so he arrives all by himself. Armed with a sword and pistol with no invulnerable or anything else? No way. I think the obvious intent here is for him to have a selection of vehicles to lead from the front with an attached unit.

 

When I do a reserves heavy list I definitely want to go first. I infiltrate/hide my first units(if they are just tac marines and the like) or infiltrate them to attack enemy units on turn two so my opponent has a whole turn of ineffective shooting. Either my opponent stays back and gives me the momentum, or he gets closer into the trap. Then when everything comes on, they all hit at the same time. For me it's the perfect balance of evasiveness and countering my opponent. I want them to feel like they have exactly one turn to get things right before I descend upon them. It's my usual go-to play style. Gives me all the positioning and initiative. It help mitigate enemy shooting should I be going second. Not optimal, but the list is still adaptable.

 

My usual lists look more like the Emperors Children RoW. I have the visible blade and the hidden blade. The difference is that the EC version is a grand duel of forces and the RG list is, wait for it, a Decapitation Strike.

[Hesh Kadesh]

RAW and common sense are mot on speaking terms. Look at the rules for allies and transports.

 

Defl0, in all instances, an IC is referenced to joining another unit. When they do so, there is only one unit, and the IC is considered to be part of that unit for all rules purposes. Not the other unit is considered to be part of the IC's unit. Nowhere does it state that. The IC ceases to be its own unit when it joins a unit, because it has joined another and is considered to be part of that unit for all rules purposes. Good or Bad, and whether it is beneficial to you or not in regards to the individual rules. Dedicated Transport requires only the unit it was bought for to deploy within. The IC when attached to another unit is not the unit it was bought for.

 

You are equating unit to model, there is a difference in rules parlance. This is how the english language works. And it cannot be helped FW don't know what they are writing.

[defl0]

Ur math is still wrong. 1+1=1.  It says in several places in the IC language that the two units are treated as a single unit. They are a joined unit. Did the joined unit purchase the transport? Yes it did. It's that simple. It is "the unit it was selected with."

 

Even if you argue that the IC joined the mor deythan and thus is now a mor Deythan, the answer is the same. Did the joined unit purchase the transport? Yes it did. Again, it's that simple. It is "the unit it was selected with." Just because he's a mor deythan does mean he didn't select the transport. He's part of the unit now, so the unit did purchase it. 

 

You can't make the argument that the mor deythan part of the squad didn't buy the transport because then you are ignoring all the rules and language that they are a single joined unit. No matter how you try to spin it, it's still one unit that purchased, i.e. selected, the transport... not two. 

 

pg 166. "While an IC is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes."

 

Strictly by RAW it works. And to Nusquams point it's obviously the RAI as well. 

Edited February 21, 2015 by defl0

[Nusquam]

Spirit of the Game is all I have left to say.

 

Been converting my own Destroyers tonight. Realized that if equipped with jump packs it's the easiest was to get S6 axes with rad grenades. Bonus with the Fractal Harrow Blade.

 

Something bulky with rad grenades in general with the FHB is great; S6 AP3 against T3 Tac blobs will cut out FnP. Plus the Bloody Ruin rule. The whole blob is toast. Attach, say. a Chaplain and make his Crozium an Axe for dedicated AP2 if you need it. Pretty deadly. Going to brainstorm some lists to take advantage of it.

[defl0]

"Axes" am I missing something or do you mean a power axe and a fractal harrow blade on the sgt?

 

Also how do you get rad grenades? Moritat?

 

Termies are another way to get the S6 power weapons. You just have to pull off a combined charge.

 

BTW. Always been bummed Nex doesn't have rad grenades...

Edited February 21, 2015 by defl0

[Nusquam]

I mean power axe on the Destroyer Sergeant and FHB on an attached IC. Destroyers come with rad grenades, add in a Chaplain with the blade and you have yourself a deadly CC unit with decent close range shooting if you include phosphex and rad missiles.

 

Terminators aren't bad either, you just have to pull off a combined charge like you said, which isn't always easy, or attach a forge lord.

 

Here's some ideas on how to maximize Furious Charge and rad grenades for RG:

1. Forge Lord on bike with rad grenades and FHB attached to outrider squad, every three models can take a power weapon so grab an axe for every three plus the sarge. Can upgrade bikes to carry plasma too. Could also get a cortex controller to get some vorax and outflank both units.
2. Forge lord with FHB attached to termis. With powerfists a small points upgrade over an axe it's hard to justify using up a whole(possibly only) consul just to get rad grenades in a squad.
3. Chaplain with FHB attached to Destroyers, both equipped with jump packs. Give the Sarge an axe and phosphex bomb. Grab a rad launcher too. Fearless keeps them moving. Can synergize with Mauns deepstrike bubble too.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Nusquam

[defl0]

Those are all solid ideas. The FHB chaplain is mean. 

 

I agree on the termies though. It makes sense not to blow a consul to get them rad grenades. You are better off building a list with destroyers with a chaplain and termies so it all works together. Feels very Dark Age Raven Guard. 

 

I'm working on my destroyers too. I have a bit of an asiatic dustfields influence in my models. My destoyers have katanas and Raiden hats with the destroyer symbol the hats. They are kinda beginning to look bad ass. 

[Nusquam]

Nice. Puppets War?

 

Mine were the results of looking through my bits and Frankenstein-ing them together. The story behind them is that they are going to be Terran XIXth, assigned to a small Predation Fleet(along with the rest of my Terran XIXth models) attached to a Rogue Trader Militant, that have cannibalized armor and gear from a campaign against Night Lords.

 

Also I tried to make a 500 point Zone Mortalis Adepticon list, but it's just a Vigilator, Apothecary, Mor Deythan with combi-flamers, and a min tac squad. Since they're using void warfare I dumped as many points into the Mor Deythan as possible. Because what's there not to love about flamers that rend on a 5+ with pseudo-shred?

[defl0]

Yup. It's a mix of Puppetwars, forge world, gw, shapeways, exo lords, etc. It started as a 40k army, and then I started reading the horus heresy stuff and realized I really had to go Ninja/Samuri Themed. 

 

Infiltrate is nasty in Zone mortalis and yes. Our flamers and the mega bomb in it. 

Edited February 21, 2015 by defl0

[Hesh Kadesh]

Ur math is still wrong. 1+1=1.  It says in several places in the IC language that the two units are treated as a single unit. They are a joined unit. Did the joined unit purchase the transport? Yes it did. It's that simple. It is "the unit it was selected with."

 

Even if you argue that the IC joined the mor deythan and thus is now a mor Deythan, the answer is the same. Did the joined unit purchase the transport? Yes it did. Again, it's that simple. It is "the unit it was selected with." Just because he's a mor deythan does mean he didn't select the transport. He's part of the unit now, so the unit did purchase it. 

 

You can't make the argument that the mor deythan part of the squad didn't buy the transport because then you are ignoring all the rules and language that they are a single joined unit. No matter how you try to spin it, it's still one unit that purchased, i.e. selected, the transport... not two. 

 

pg 166. "While an IC is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes."

 

Strictly by RAW it works. And to Nusquams point it's obviously the RAI as well. 

 

1+1=1 is not actually the case. We're not adding 1+1, and if that's you're way of equating nuance and language to a mathematical equation, it's no wonder you're not understanding. Forget maths. No-one is talking Maths. Maths is only relevant when adding points or working out effectiveness of vehicles.

 

Can you state exactly where the two are treated as a single unit? I Ctrl+F'd my electronic version and found 4 particular occasions regarding single unit; the only one regarding IC's when talking about being on a transport. 

 

 

 

If an Independent Character (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle, they are automatically joined, just as if the Independent Character was within 2" of the unit. If either an Independent Character or a unit is already in a vehicle, the other may join them by embarking too (assuming, of course, that there is enough space). The unit and the Independent Character(s) can, in a later Movement phase, disembark together as a single unit. Alternatively, they can separate by either the unit or the Independent Character(s) disembarking while the others remain on board. They can even separate by disembarking at the same time, so long as they end their moves more than 2" away from each other.

 

None of that allows a unit start the game in another units Dedicated Transport. The only mention of Single unit is when the two are already embarked on the transport, which cannot happen because it's in direct violation of the rule regarding Dedicated Transports. It mentions that the IC joins the unit as if within 2" of the unit 

 

The "joined unit" is not a parlance understood by the game; it's not found anywhere within the electronic rulebook.

 

What you are saying CANNOT happen BY RAW. And as Nusquam said; it's not really in the spirit of the game either; I wouldn't personally spend this amount of time debating it during a game, and would let it slide, but now, when I'm on my own time, I'm finding the time to debate it.

 

I also am not particularly sure why you're siding with the people who cannot write rules which match their own ruleset or internal vision. Do you not want rules which actually fit the existing rules and match FW's vision?

 

There was never a problem with the rules before, because there wasn't a case (IIRC) that a 7th edition release has an Independent Character capable of taking a Transport with a capacity larger than one. FW have now released one, and it's taken someone who can actually read the rules, and take the time to read into the rules to discover that it doesn't actually do what FW think it does.

 

Look at the rules for the Dark Wing; where does it state that it can carry Jump Infantry? Nowhere. Look in the fluff for the Dark Fury Assault Squads. FW don't actually know what they're writing, and they can't recreate the balance of Book 1 if they tried (look at what Book 2 brought to the game; Iron Hands and Salamanders); it was a happy accident, and now relies on "codex creep" to see the game balance itself.

 

hidden from view, please respond via PM if you wish to continue.

 

I'm a fan of destroyers; but it's just a shame that you can't get much use out of the allies table, especially with the changes to the Infiltrate rule. If you want to Infiltrate, you need to run a Vigilator; but with only SW or Sallies, but the best I can come up with is Salamanders giving their Vigilator a Mastercrafted Sniper Bolter; even the Sallies relic doesn't really bring that much to the table on a flanking unit of 5~. The Space Wolves Vigilator brings a S6 AP3 Shred Armourbane weapon, however (but can't take another specialist weapon).

[Nusquam]

With the Nanyte Blaster as a generic relic I'm not really looking to bring allies to infiltrate with anything/be attached to anything. As far as Legion allies go there isn't anything I can think of that would really do well alongside my RG. Unless it's from a story-driven standpoint. Plus Decapitation Strike doesn't allow for Legion allies. When I have done allies, which was AdMech, I used the classic XIXth 'send the non-legionaries out the die as bait then close the trap'.

[defl0]

Destroyers are very much a rule of cool unit for me though. I have a tough time acutally justifying them in a tourny setting though. 

 

From a rules perspective, they are basically tac squad with and extra hth weapon which comes in at 17 points. Destroyers pay 30. FOTL is a wash against counter attack, so you are basically paying 13 points per marine for purchase options and rad grenades. 

 

They get great options, but truly they shine as assaulters. Which brings me to the next conundrum... How to deploy them. Jump packs are nice for Raven Guard, but now ur at 32 point per marine as a base price, which is the same prices as a fully equipt mor daythan. 

 

The other options are in rhinos or on foot. The rhinos aren't that bad since you can't charge first turn anyway. Infiltrate, drive up, jump out, throw grenades, hope they charge you. But then you miss out on the rad oblit possibilities. 

 

It's actually a really bummer you can't take them in drop pods easily. Because dropping in, shooting, and chargin out of the pod would have been pretty solid. 

 

Do you guys ever take the rad missiles?

 

 

Also on a totally separate tangent, what do you use for tactical markings on your mor deythan? Recon insignia?

[Nusquam]

Rad grenades work both ways in assault. So them with counter attack still results in +1A against -1T enemies. I use them for missions like Planet Strike and Strategic Raid Missions. That's where they truly shine. I always take a rad launcher, or two, and usually jump packs. The offer deadly shooting and are a force multiplier when combined with Dark Furies in those types of missions. Right now I'm playing with lists for Cities of Death/City Fight missions.

 

I keep wanting to try an orbital Assault RoW list so I can have Mor Deythan and Destroyers in pods. But it's hard for me to turn down Decapitation Strike.

 

Speaking of Planet Strike. I must say Maun is pure platinum in that mission. Attacker or Defender the ability to manipulate reserves with PS FOCs and Stratagems  and Maun's warlord trait make for some deadly alpha strikes. Use the special rule for the PS FOCs that allow you to auto pass/fail a reserve roll for a unit each turn will ensure that a unit of Destroyers loaded for bear or some Dark Furies will arrive at the most opportune time to use Mauns vox bubble to deepstrike, shoot in the case of Destroyers, and then assault due to the Shock Tactics rule. That's terrifying.

 

If there was a transfer for the iris/shutter special unit designation from page 139 book 3 I would use that. What I use now is a skull I copied from some random pauldron with instant mold. I plan to paint it grey with a white X on the forehead.