[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[Hammer of Olympia]

So,since I'll be facing 40k armies,what do you all suggest I bring in a 1000 point game?

I like Nusquam's list with Veterans and Delegatus,which follows Corax exactly after Isstvan 

[defl0]

If you are playing regular games, I would suggest a sicarian if you aren't playing zone mortalis. Dealing with fliers and things like wave serpents can be tough at small point levels.

 

I also like the idea of the delagatus with vet squads in drop pods. And mor deythan are great at any sized game. 

 

All of those unit are really flexable so you can build to take on all comers.

[Hesh Kadesh]

If you can find the points, a Delegatus and a Praevian with Darkfire Castellax. Just realised that you shouldn't take Infiltrate and Fleet; you get Infiltrate already by virtue of the IC (it only requires 1 or more model in the unit, and as he's not deployed conventionally like IC's he still benefits from it), and take Tank Hunters as the special rule.

 

Then, a few squads of Veterans, to make the minimum requisites; and maybe something like a Fire Raptor.

[Nusquam]

I read the "or" in the Inductees rule as: Automata gain current legion rule or in the case of no legion rules you choose one of those listed. It doesn't give us permission to choose legion rule or those listed. It just says that you gain the legion rules, no choice here, or then you choose from the list. Which is only possible if they gained no legion rules.  Otherwise there would be no point in having infiltrate like you said. Looks pretty clear that they want to RG Automata to infiltrate.

 

Vets are great because they can amp up your compulsory troops choice. Tac marines aren't bad, but don't offer the diversity that Vets can in terms of gear and tactics. Though if you chose Chosen Duty you don't get drop pods for things unless they are Anvillus or Kharybdis.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Legion Inductees applies to the Battle Automata, but as far as I can tell, the Praevian still has Legiones Astartes (Raven Guard), which grants infantry Infiltrate, and Infiltrate states;

 

"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed."

[Nusquam]

That's not what I'm saying. No doubt the Praevian has infiltrate. I'm saying the 'or' in the Inductee rule isn't a choice to give the automata either the Praevians Legion rules or the generic rules. It's there in case you don't have published rules like DA, BA, etc you still get something.

 

I've been rereading book 3 and been thinking about a few things:

First, Deliverers. The more I read about them the less I think they can be represented by normal terminator units. They description of their ferocity and armament seems more expansive. They also favor teleporter attacks. Which is impossible outside the Orbital Assault RoW. I wonder if they will see rules in the future. A legion command squad might be able to represent them better however due to WS5 and the banner.

Second, Shadow Wardens. The ever vigilant, stealthy, and secretive honor guard of Corax. If I had to wager they would function like a command squad, but have stealth or shrouded. Maybe a special rule of some sort instead of a banner. Until then a CS is probably best. Plus the Praetor can take cameleoline. They can function like slightly better armed Vets. If I ever make a list where Maun is leading from the front I would probably use a CS as such.

 

Whispercutters. Nothing to use for a count-as but they're mentioned so much I can see them being a possible addition. Some light speeder type vehicle with shrouded that can be a dedicated transport for some units or a FA choice. Could function like a drop pods, but not require a RoW and be AV10-11 HP2 or something.

 

Another thought: With the Advent of the Decurion detachment and it's mini formations do you think we'll see special mini formations appear for each legion, along with some general ones? Perhaps attached to the legion specific RoW?

Edited February 24, 2015 by Nusquam

[Hammer of Olympia]

Ok so I did a bit mash up with the army list based on what you guys suggested and got this

 

                Raven Guards (875pts)

Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (875pts)

• HQ (95pts)
  • Legion Centurion (95pts)

    Artificer Armour (10pts), Refractor Field (10pts)

    Consul, Independent Character, Legiones Astartes

    • Consul (25pts)
      • Delegatus (25pts)

        Rite of Command

        • Master of the Legion

          Chosen Duty

          Master of the Legion

• Troops (250pts)
  • Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (125pts)

    4x Legion Veteran Space Marines (60pts)

    Implacable Advance, Legiones Astartes, Veteran Tactics

  • Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (125pts)

    4x Legion Veteran Space Marines (60pts)

    Implacable Advance, Legiones Astartes, Veteran Tactics

• Elites (125pts)
  • Mor Deythan Strike Squad (125pts)

    4x Mor Deythan (80pts)

    Fatal Strike, Implacable Advance, Legiones Astartes, Scout, Stealth

• Heavy Support (405pts)
  • Legion Fire Raptor Gunship (210pts)

    Reaper Autocannon battery (10pts)

    Deep Strike, Independent Turret Fire, Strafing Run

  • Legion Sicaran Battle Tank (195pts)

    Armoured Ceramite (20pts), Lascannons (40pts)

    Rapid Tracking                 

 

So what do you all guys think? I dont really know how to kit the Consul,Vets,Mor Deythan and there's still 125 points left

[Nusquam]

Moved to the army list

Edited February 26, 2015 by Nusquam

[defl0]

Can we put this in an army list thread? This is supposed to be for tactics.

[defl0]

So how are you guys dealing with knights with Raven Guard? 

 

Melta spam? Fliers? Termies? Melta nombs?

[Hammer of Olympia]

Can we put this in an army list thread? This is supposed to be for tactics.

sorry about that,moving it to Army List

[Nusquam]

So how are you guys dealing with knights with Raven Guard? 

 

Melta spam? Fliers? Termies? Melta nombs?

 

Depends on how many, if it's just one game etc. I won't be facing a Knight army anytime soon. But I've fought two before and I didn't know they were coming. I managed to down one with some LC shots and a volley a of plasma from Seekers. I ignored the other one and just played to the mission objectives. At that point I had done a fair amount of damage to his infantry and was able to get a close win.

 

Had I known they were coming and had the resources I would have considered things like:

 

Sicaran Venators - I always forget how good their weapon is.

Two quadmortar batteries of at least 2 each - Deploy them on opposite sides so they can target the facing the knights shield isn't on.

Lightnings - Turbokrakens are still brutal. Just be wary of the heavy support knight with interceptor. It will always be a Castigator.

Drop Pods with some sort of melta inside for ablative AV12

 

The biggest thing with Knights is when they die they go nuclear. Thankfully pods can provide things with AV12. Orbital Assault would be good. Get some combi-melta seekeA bad scatter could spell disaster but hey, Fortis Fortuna adiuva.

 

Edit: Also just realized two things about Nex. First I don't think there's any rule preventing him from assaulting turn one when he uses Relentless Stalker. And second, he has melta bombs...

Edited February 26, 2015 by Nusquam

[Hesh Kadesh]

Knights can't take on melta very. If you know you're facing Knights, multiple Drop Podding units with Meltaguns at opposite ends take down Knights just as easy as they do in 40K. No Armoured Ceramite.

 

Knights are quite strong at the moment, because the meta is still evolving around Melta and Armoured Ceramite, and most people are settling for not taking Melta so as not to waste points vs Armoured Ceramite; which makes it quite strong when you don't have multiple high strength shots coming in. On the other hand, there isn't any real easy way to take MSU meltas like 40K has; but if anything, the Raven Guard are the best at it; that combined makes Knights strong in the current meta.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[Memento Of Prospero]

The only thing that makes knights good in 30k is that they are even more undercost for the setting than they are in 40k

[Hesh Kadesh]

Oh right, okay then mate.

[defl0]

Yeah, i guess knights are considerably more manageable without the ad lance formation and a lot of units have access to melta bombs. But you can fit 5 in at 1850... That would just be a "knightmare" to deal with...

 

As for Nex, yeah, turn one assault baby! He's a beast, if you go first, it's likely you are getting first blood and his plus one. 

[Raktra]

I guess if you absolutely knew you'd be facing nought but Knights (or at least a high volume of them), it'd be worth throwing a few Tactical Support squads with meltas in pods in to try and ambush the bastards turn one (RG do get pods basic right? Or at least in the RoW?). I dunno.

[Nusquam]

With the Orbital Assault RoW:

Mor Deythan in a pod with 5 combi-meltas(195) Fatal Strike against AV12(pods should be able to get side/rear AV) 4++ = 2-3 HPs.

 

10 Mor Deythan with combi-meltas in a pod(330) will almost guarantee one dead knight.

 

With OA or DS RoW:

 

Melta Support Squad with meltas (210) against AV12 4++ = ~1 HPs.

 

A full squad (360) will do 3 HPs with one one probable explosion for one barely dead knight or one with ~1 HP left.

 

Both with ablative AV12 OT HP3 to survive the meltdown.

 

Mor Deythan are scoring, more reliable, and cheaper with bolters to fall back on. Seekers perform almost identical to Mor Deythan, 340 for 10 in a pod.   They have their special ammo too, but only 9 combi-weapons and no rending put them barely in the dead knight range. I would opt for Mor Deythan over them. The MD could also infiltrate and scout in a rhino for a similar effect, but risk getting stuck against FA13.

 

I would only do the above if I knew I was facing a one-off battle against a Knight list. If it were an event where I knew there would be knights, a fair amount of flare shields and the like I would opt for Sicaran Venators backed up by rapiers. One has a 60% chance to neuter a knight for a turn as well as a 20% chance to take off additional HPs from an explosion. Then with clever planning you could have the rapiers in a different arc than the ion shield. A quadmortar can shave off 2 HPs from a side shot with no ion shield. A battery of three will finish off a knight or even kill a fresh one outright if the ion is on the arc with the Venators.

 

Then should you not face a knight army you could easily take down a mechanized one. Or even a troop heavy one thanks to the fragshells. The Venators at that point can focus on the few vehicles in a troop heavy list. The drawback is that you can't take Decapitation Strike. But between infiltrate and the Venators being fast you should be fine if you go second. Wow I need to brainstorm this list.

[Hesh Kadesh]

To take on Knights, you need to bracket them and hit two armour facings at the same time to bypass the Ion Shield.

 

Edit; well, not need, but it gets a higher return from your shots, at the expense of the high unit tax cost and the requisite for additional Drop Pod assault/rhino units.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[Nusquam]

Lot's of hubbub about the Newcrons. I think RG are in a good place to take them on well.

 

Fractal Harrow-Blade doubles wounds for the purpose of breaking a unit. A great anti-tarpit weapon in general. Just have to make sure that you won't get shot off once you're out of combat.

 

Eclipse launchers will blind anything that's not a C'tan easily. A good primer for assault, or just reducing the Necrons effectiveness.

 

Mor Deythan will kill about 10 Warriors with combi-flamers and Fatal Strike. Erase scarabs and kill about 4 Wraith.

 

Dark Furies will put the hurt on as well. But again, be sure you won't just be shot off after.

 

I think a list with quadmortar batteries, Darkwings, and scouting Mor Deythan would be a nightmare for Newcrons.

[Nusquam]

SO I've been examining Recon Marines. I have a small Raptors(The 40k Kind with Issodon) with 25 scouts and been thinking of ways to use them in 30k. If they didn't have the Support Squad rule, which I think they shouldn't for us since every XIX marine is cross-trained for recon, I would take them over Tacs. But because of Support I find I'm comparing them against Mor Deythan.

 

Both Units:

• Infiltrate
• Shroud Bombs
• Scout
• Can take sniper rifles, shotguns
• Scoring

Mor Deythan:

• Fatal Strike
• Stealth
• BS5
• Combi-weapons, special weapons, webs etc

Recon:

• Sarge can be equipped for CC
• Vox
• Vex
• Can swap bolter/take additional CC
• Can take Scout armor for Move Through Cover

Speaking strictly of game mechanics the Mor Deythan have the advantage in most situations. That combined with the Support Squad rule of the Recons makes it hard to justify taking them in addition to Tacs. Definitely not worth taking as Snipers over Mor Deythan.

 

I think the best way to make use of them is a forward scout unit. Take Scout armor to get into position with a Vox to call in accurate Drop Pods and Flyers. The Tacticals take pods and grab the more dangerous objectives from inside their ablative AV12. The Recon squads stay small and use strike and fade tactics, working their way towards objectives. This keeps their priority low compared to the podded Tacticals and other attack units like Mor Deythan, Speeders, and the like.

 

Fluffy but...

 

Why not just take Mor Deythan? With four elite slots in an AoD FOC you can spam Mor Deythan. Sure there are other good elite units, but Mor Deythan are top tier no doubt.

 

Even an artillery lists don't draw much benefit from them because regular Tacs have infiltrate if RG and access to Vox.

 

Thoughts? Some other tactic that would make them worth it? Or is the Support Squad rule the death of them?

[Tiger9gamer]

Maybe as a cheap outflanking unit to harass backfield stuff?

[Nusquam]

Another thing is that they aren't cheap. Well at least not cheaper than Mor Deythan. They are the same base price, and after upgrades(weapons for the MD and camo for the RM etc), they are still close to the same cost. Or the MD are sometimes even cheaper while having BS5 and Fatal Strike. The only real advantage the RM have is the Sarge can take a power weapon. But that is a small advantage compared to the shooting power of the MD.

 

If only they weren't Support Squads for us...

[Tiger9gamer]

Well, Maybe use the scouts as mor dynath if you weren't already?

 

 

Edit: oh, wait, power armor. dammit.

 

 

maybe the recon squad has no use for RG?

Edited March 4, 2015 by Tiger9gamer

[Nusquam]

On the tabletop, not looking that way...

 

In-lore it makes sense since you could probably count all the Mor Deythan on your digits vs the thousands of normal astartes. Oh well...