[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[Tiger9gamer]

so maybe keep them protected if you really want to be fluffy? also is "on your digits" before or after the massacre?

[Nusquam]

After, but still; Mor Deythan are very rare. For every 1 MD you probably have then thousand regular marines; each cross-trained to fill the recon squad role.

 

For a campaign I would consider recon marines. Like those in Conquest. Limit to one Mor Deythan and redeployment delays and so on. Probably work on special campaign rules to take away Support Squad for them. But that's neither here nor there.

 

Tomorrow I have a game against the Red Angel himself. The list I'm bringing is mostly for fun and includes all my models with paint. I've been thinking of ways to take out Angron. I'm betting he's going to be inside a Spartan. If it were any other Primarch besides Horus, or in this case, Angron I would bait him out with Corax and Hit and Run away to expose them to Mor Deythan and Seekers. But the Red Angel and The Deliverer have a good chance of killing each other(I'm also bringing a Chaplain) in the second round, right before I would Hit and Run away.

 

So I'm thinking of putting a Tac squad in his way. Then when he kills them off in one round it will leave he and his squad exposed. With clever positioning I can have Mor Deythan in position to Fatal Strike alongside a Chain Fire from Nex. They will be able to kill 10+ terminators and put a few wounds on Angron and then Corax, the Chaplain, and Dark Furies will finish him off.

 

I haven't used Dark Furies in a long time. Last time I used them and my Fury-Prime(Chaplain) they claimed 60+ marines alongside Corax. The time before that they left a fresh Mortarion with one wound(which he saved on a final 4++). Always give them Talons. They are so cost efficient. I say that a lot but wow it's true. They and a Chaplain can kill off 10 termis at I5. That is some serious damage. Especially with the void shield harness.

 

Tomorrow I'm putting the Fractal Harrow-blade to the test. With Furious Charge on the Chaplain he'll be swinging at S6.

[defl0]

The one big difference. Melta bombs. 

 

Recon squads are the cheapest way to get melta bombs in mass in the troop slot. 

 

It's a buck fifty for 5 or 250 for 10. So literally two the cost of tacs...

 

They are also tied for the cheapest unit in general to get 5 melta bombs, tied with 5 Vets.

 

Vets are superior, but they are elites. I always run out of elite slots with RG, even at 1850. 

 

With fleet, scout and infiltrate you can reach out to deep units, or out flank them in. Or just camp them mid field and prey on transports and walkers. 

 

The other good way to use them is in an air cav list. No one wants to be charged by 10 melta bombs out of a storm eagle (which btw has objective secured if bought as a dedicated transport!!!!)

 

Anyway, at higher point cost, I find I use them as small scoring tac squad alternatives that scare the crap out of vehicles for relatively cheap. 

 

But in general they are sub par compared to MD... 

[Nusquam]

Ohhh the Melta bombs thing is a great point. And they can take a storm eagle as a DT!? That is pretty good. This changes everything. I was just trying to make an air-cav list but struggled with only 3 FA slots.

 

I don't generally like relying on CC to take out vehicles as the contents can just shoot you, and if inside an assault transport, and assault you. But them being relatively cheap and sneaky might make it worth it. While they won't be able to charge T1 they will be able to intercept Land Raiders and the like. Shroud bombs, as defensive grenades, helps mitigate things like Tacs assaulting you but they will fold against any dedicated CC unit. Which in itself isn't necessarily bad. They will all die and leave the CC unit exposed to gunfire on your turn.

 

Or load them up in Storm Eagles to bring some gunships to play. If they infiltrate close to a squadron the squadron will just move away, but inside an Eagle they can catch up to tanks and melt them. With Outflank and Acute sense that's some scary saboteurs coming out of no where to lay waste to a back line. Then camo can keep them alive in the back field.

 

Good catch defl0.

[defl0]

Yup for 5 naked with melta bombs they are a throw away scoring distraction, that most people just ignore. 

 

With MBs you could even make a case for recon armor as the move through caver is actually quite useful. 

 

But the point is that they are cheap and sneaky dangerous. 

 

They work well with dark fury as well if you give them a vox as you can crack open a transport with the melta bombs and assault the contents with the dark fury. 

 

Plus a second vox always is nice with maun if you want to have scatterless deepstrike in another part of the board.

[Hesh Kadesh]

AFB; 5 man meltabomb suicide squad with move through cover? That move through cover is still kind of niche compared to Vets with Tank Hunting Meltabombs for similar costs.

[Nusquam]

Ahhh yes, Vets can take Darkwings. Which have Stealth and Outflank. They don't have Acute Senses though. Since they won't be able to charge the turn they come on, they can spend it getting close to their target should they have come in on the wrong side.

 

It's funny. I'm trying so hard to use a basic recon unit when the rest of the legion can do better. Ah well, Veteran Recon Marines coming up!

[defl0]

Yeah. But they are troops! Lol. I never have any extra slots for things like veterans...

[Nusquam]

I personally struggle with FA slots. I almost always have Seekers and Dark Furies and I plan on investing in some Lightnings.

 

Also due to weather my game got postponed to tomorrow. So today I'm brainstorming up a Chosen Duty RoW list called 'An Unkindness'. Darkwings everywhere.

[Slips]

If you REALLY want next level Dbaggery, RG PoTL with Maun (assuming a ridiculous points limit) fill ALL your Troops and Elites slots with units that can take Dark Wings (Tac Vets, MD, etc.) and slap 3 Fire Raptors into Heavy Support and Storm Eagles / Lightnings into FA.

 

Huzzah Aircav 2.Over.Kill

 

Were you to max out these slots, you could, in a single FoC Chart, have: 8 Darkwings, 3 Storm Eagles and 3 Fire Raptors. The 4 Troop Darkwings being Objective secured to boot.

[Nusquam]

If you're playing certain special missions or using a CAD you'll get Objective Secured, but the normal AoD FOC doesn't have it. Also without anything on the ground you'll lose automatically at the end of turn one. Though you could fix this just from putting some Vets on the ground and having their Darkwings be empty.

 

The real evil version would be 6 minimum Vets with fearless each with a Darkwing. Then 4 Mor Deythan loaded for bear in Darkwings(for 10 total Darkwings), 3 Fire Raptors, and 3 lightnings. Vets start on the board, Mor Deythan claim objectives down-field and Raptors and Lightnings provide close air support.

 

Probably Chosen Duty so you won't lose a point of the Vets die. Just keep the Delegatus alive for a bonus VP. In 2,500 points you can have a Delegatus, 4 Vet squads with Darkwings, 2 Kraken Lightnings, and 2 Fire Raptors with RACBs and 35 points for upgrades. That's 8 gunships, 4 of which are scoring.

 

Or a Delegatus with camo, 2 vet squads with DW, Mor Deythan loaded for bear with a DW, 2 Lightnings with TH and SR, and 3 Fire Raptors with RACBs. 3 squads of scoring infantry and 2 scoring gunships. 2,500 points on the nose. You could probably shave off one or two MDs for upgrades on the Delegatus. Or drop a Fire Raptor to upgrade the Vet squads. Now that, truly, is an unkindness of ravens...

[Slips]

Until be see the Blood Angels, yeah, RG are the meanest AirCav Legion :p

[Hesh Kadesh]

Ahhh yes, Vets can take Darkwings. Which have Stealth and Outflank. They don't have Acute Senses though. Since they won't be able to charge the turn they come on, they can spend it getting close to their target should they have come in on the wrong side.

 

It's funny. I'm trying so hard to use a basic recon unit when the rest of the legion can do better. Ah well, Veteran Recon Marines coming up!

You are raosing the poijt,,but why would the RG need recon specialists? They have a super assassin unit,,but you can only really go super special snowflake 'but these are even better ninjas' so,many times before it gets old.

 

I also really don't like Lightnings as Deredeos get more widespread. My counts as has.tallied 7 in 7 games against the 'Xerxes' fanname version. Considering its power against Air Cav lists in general, it would surprise me to see people taking 4 or more Deredeo.

 

For aircav, the basis is always 3 Fire Raptors for me. They are.just that.good. I think the Xiphos or whetever that new one is might take the next niche, maybe 2x TL Lascannosn or a Laser Destroyer might make it a nice little interceptor for cheap.

[Nusquam]

I still argue that 'Xerxes' is a misnomer. Semantics aside...

 

I know Deredeos are good and will be popular, but I don't believe in units rendering other units or tactics useless. It's too easy to snowball into  "Typhons exist, why bother giving my Tac blobs Apothecaries? Or even footsloging them?" or "Sicrans exist, why bother with speeders?" and so on and so on.

 

With proper positioning you can have the Darkwings block LoS or at the very least give the Lightnings a 4+ cover. I've said it before. Or be gusty and deep strike them behind the Deredeos.

 

I doubt you'll ever see more than one, maybe two, Deredeos in a list. And not everyone will take them. Especially not 4 as heavy support only has 3 slots on average. They're good, perhaps too good. We'll see how they fair when their rules aren't experimental. Even normal AV12 craft are in danger so it's not just Lightnings.

 

I'm not afraid of Deredeos, I respect them, but I'm not afraid. If they're jammed up in the corner I'll fly on shallow so they can't hit them, turn and nuke them next turn. If they place them on both flanks towards the center for maximum coverage I'll deep strike behind them or drop pod in or scout up to them etc. If all that is impossible then I got outplayed and my opponent is just better. Them's the brakes.

 

But where there's a will there's a way.

 

Fortis fortuna adiuvat; victorus aut mortis.

 

I am really excited for the Xiphon. I'm getting at least one because the model is sweet.

[shandwen]

I might end up with a Xiphon. I like the lightnings rules, but the lightning model just doesnt do it for me. (Anc I wish forgeworld made some variant predator turrets for the 40k type)

[Tiger9gamer]

If anything, it would be nice to have a cool looking interceptor-flyer with lascannons built in (not counting Storm raven as it can change the lascannon, and the storm talon has a very expensive upgrade for it) 

 

this is one of the things i'm waiting on the edge of my seat for!

[defl0]

What ROW do you use for air cav? They all seem to have their uses. 

 

Orbital assault - Drop pods can help you not get tabled first turn and can help you kill anti air units by getting close with melta

 

Angel's of wrath - Opens up more way to get storm eagles, also make jumpers better

 

Pride of the legion - let's you skip the tacs and focus on heavy hitters for foot sloggers

 

Delegatus - also lets' you focus on take better units inside your birds

 

Decapitating strike - gives you some control over going first or second

 

 

I bring it up because I don't thing decapitating strike is the best option, simply because 3 fire raptors seems soooooooo good. I also think this type of list might was to take a fortification to get a com relay. 

 

Just mfor fun maybe we should start tossing some air cav lists into the List building forum.

[Nusquam]

My vote is Chosen Duty. Get's vets in troops for Darkwings.

 

Angels Wrath could work, but you would have to deploy them in Avillus pods so you don't auto lose on turn one. AMs are too expensive and I don't want to leave Dark Furies alone. I don't have any jetbikes or speeders but that could be an option. A unit or two of those with Maun, so your gunships have a good chance of all arriving turn two, might make for a good list. Plus Dark Furies will get Hit and Run. Though they will usually win and sweep thanks to access to Ravens Talons and S5 I5 on the charge. But you can get Maun as the Warlord for his buffs.

 

Actually thinking more on that, it might work. Sure the Tacs don't get Darkwings, but the Storm Eagles hit a little harder. Or take Mauns Darkwing and put him with some Tacs.

 

If only the Counter Attack buff Maun gave out was just passive and didn't require the unit to deepstrike through his Vox. Otherwise I would be tempted to take Angels Wrath, two Cents with boarding shields and camo, two Apoths, and two tac blobs inside Eagles. Counter attack and Defensive grenades makes anyone who attacks you seems like you are the one doing the attacking.

 

That last bit is pretty good actually. Put Maun with Rapiers or a scouting rhino or something. Then have the above unit come down, hop out, and open fire. Stealth and FnP for survivability and If you're charged you have the +1A and the enemy doesn't. Then if the Cent is a Forgelord he can keep the Eagle running and bring Rad Grenades. That's pretty brutal. I'm going to have to make a list up and post it.

[Sircyn]

I find Alvarex Maun removes the need for comms relays for most lists and is a cheap master of the legion to boot. But he's been talked to death.

 

I wanna pipe up and add that for your lord of war you could take a sub orbital strike wing to give yourself in effect an extra three fast attack slots.. Not sure how badly the victory point bleed will effect games as I assume you drop one for each unit in the strike wing that dies!

 

I've been pondering outflanking a unit of terminators in a night wing for turn two charge goodness on choice targets, I'm thinking of a lot of combi plasma and power axes to take advantage of the furious assault for cheap power fist equivalents on the first round of combat. I'll be running one unit of mor deythan on terminator duty, but I wanted another unit that could do this too, and I like that they will terrorise power armour units in assault to boot. Am I talking sensible here?

 

I've also been gifted a pair of contemptor dreads, would you prefer dreadnought pods or dread claws? While the ability to go flat out after dropping with the anvillus is great, unless using orbital assault its costing you a fast attack slot.

 

In decapitation strike I'm feeling the dreadnought pods as I'm taking advantage of the rite of war without gimping my fa slots. Its already stinging me having to take them as claws of one model and eating up my elite slots. I want them to be armed with a chainfist and grav gun to go Spartan/super heavy/tank parking lot squadron hunting, I've pondered leaving the other hands as a DCCW to maximise my chain fist swings, do you guys think it would reduce my alpha strike too much for that turn I drop?

[Hesh Kadesh]

The DCCW isn't specialist, so no.

 

I'd personally take Dual DCCW with double Graviton legion dreads to save points. You can pop a Spartan first turn if you can get another haywire hit there (allied Mechanicum with a Contagium relic and scoring Castellax?)

[Nusquam]

Don't forget you can't assault out of Reserves so those termis won't be charging until T3. Also they will be at S6, which while good, won't stop FnP on a marine. If you really want to squash marines the small cost for a fist is worth it. Plus S9 punches can threaten any vehicle.

 

Walkers also get +1A for every DCCW beyond the first so if you want to maximize the Chainfist, do it and take two grav guns each. I like the Anvillus if you want to maximize the potential of one dread. But like you said, they eat up FA slots. The dread pod also has Shrouded so it's a bit more survivable than normal pods.

[defl0]

Yeah, but who cares. You are going to run the termies with combi weapons anyway... So I'm likely going to jump out and shoot anyway.

 

The other things that should be mentioned is the cestus ram. 

 

I think it's under appreciated. I ran it the other night for the first time. I managed to tank shock 6 units and ram a tank in one turn! The other crazy thing that happened is that I tank shocked a unit in the middle of the board and they broke and because I was pointing straight at them they kept falling back and breaking until they fell off the board. Who knew it worked that way? I ended up tank shocking that same unit like 6 times...

 

It's a thinking man's unit but man can that think be crazy good. 

 

Finally, I think our primarch is good in an air cav list. With his weird targeting rule you can make it pretty hard to lose turn one before the air cav come in. 

[Nusquam]

So I played the WE today; Purge/Hammer and Anvil. 14-2 Raven Guard. The guy was a great sport but he was not ready for the XIX legion. Angron was on foot so Nex and podded Seekers killed him turn one for 8 points. Podded Seekers and Nex wreck house. Even if Angron was in a Spartan, something he will never not do again ha, there were enough elites and HQs on the table I could have gotten 3+ points easy.

 

First time I ever deployed Corax solo. It worked perfectly. He jumped around behind my mobile/infiltrated units and was able to pick and choose every battle. He shot off some survivors and solo'd an assault squad. He would have continued to hop around and kill things but we called the game at the end of 5.

 

Mor Deythan in a Darkwing continue to perform phenomenaly. Though taking 10 flamers was a mistake. I couldn't line them up very well and two ended up firing their bolters instead. I think 7 flamers should be max. Then maybe 3 MLs or volkites or something. You could probably manage all 10 hitting but they will be clumped up in an awkward "U" shape. They killed a butcher squad and Khârn from Fatal Strike.

 

Didn't get to try the relic blade. I kept the Furies in reserve and they misshaped and got delayed. So they spent the game running around.

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

Finally, I think our primarch is good in an air cav list. With his weird targeting rule you can make it pretty hard to lose turn one before the air cav come in. 

I've been playing around with that Legion relic which does the same thing.

[Sircyn]

I found when running death guard flamer support squads that I dropped them to 7 as I was always wasting one or two guys when at ten men. I think the mor deythan should take advantage of those dirt cheap suspensor missile launchers x3. Both firing modes profit from rending depending upon your target and they still are a threat to vehicles across multiple turns if they survive that long.

 

Plus Veteran marines pay through the nose for the same upgrade and it narks me.

 

Thanks for the dreadnought pod advice guys, I'm going to try dropping two on turn one with fist and chain fist (the unit entry says they get the extra attack so I assume that ignores the specialist weapon problem) and 2x Grav each. That's good odds of wrecking up a 3hp vehicle on the turn I drop in my shrouded pods, then the next turn they leap out and big game hunt, or mash up vehicle squadrons.