[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[Tiger9gamer]

aww did I kill this tactica? 

 

 

hoping to hear about more victories. anyone fought orks yet?

[GreyCrow]

I'm reading this thread with much delight. I saw my first 30k heresy game today because my FLGS is holding a Heresy Day week end and the armies look absolutely stunning !

 

Very, very tempted to start a Raven Guard army...

[defl0]

Totally do Raven Guard. They are tactically more interesting than most of the other legions IMO. Plus you can play them a ton of different ways. Alpha strike. Reserve heavy. Flier heavy. Rhino Heavy. Infantry heavy on foot. It's all viable. 

[Nusquam]

I just had a game against DG. Bug Guns, Dawn. Called it bottom of 4. RG win.

 

A few things i tried this game:

 

Myrmidax Magos with dual plasma fusil and occularis in 6 thallax with two fusils is great. I whiffed a lot if rolls though. I deepstruck them in Mauns bubble. Always give him the arch upgrade. I didn't, he missed a lot. But -3 to cover was glorious Thanks to occularis and djinn sight.

 

Typhons are good, bit nearly the unstoppable war Machines the Internet likes to preach. I did thunder blitz a bunch of Medusa though ha. Massive blast is good but can be mitigated if you're clever enough. Had i deployed first i probably could have forced him aways from it More. Most things were in rhinos or infiltrated across the table thanks to Mortung (sp?).

 

Thralls are perfect fodder in blobs.

 

Darkfire Praevian squad did OK. Camo gave them a 2+cover thanks to night fighting. should have out flanked them. The medusas kept them at bay.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Nusquam

[Hesh Kadesh]

Intrigued as to how you avoided his Typhon apart from LoS blocking. S10ap1 ignores cover 7"blast with a 48" range gun (vs infiltrate heavy, and you do realise how much reach that has? It can cover a 6x8' table corner to corner from turn 3) and a 6Hp av14 all round armoured ceramite chassis for370pts is pretty conclusively among the most damaging unit available point for point against a typical tac/term/spartan heavy meta.

 

Not too sure where unstoppable war machine comes from.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm hoping to have a game soon against my buddies count as IVth with my Raven Guard, 2000pts. Sadly he uses 2 units of thallax so no close infiltrating, however I like to use a gimmicky list of Maun and 3 pods (Decapitation Strike ROW) containing 2 tacticals and 1 seeker, supported by 2 mor deythan squads with combi flamers, a squad of dark furies and kaedes nex after the moritat nerf. I've already beaten him before with a similar list and won a 2v1 so here's hoping!

[Nusquam]

I took the typhon. He didnt hurt it but it did more damage thunderblitzing than any thing else. He kept his tacs in rhinos with extra armor, all his vehicles had it. So i was stripping an hp off here and there and only ended up killing three tacs the whole game with it. He spread them out in a line so if the blast didn't deviate perfectly it only hit a few of any, it never hit directly and my lowest scatter rolls were against his vehicles. There were about 3 ones for wounding too. His only exposed infantry infliltrated far away on the opposite table edge. I had to send the typhon after his hidden Medusa squadron otherwise they would have phospex'd me off the objectives. He also blocked it with medusas so when they wrecked and blocked LoS.

 

Had I outflanked the Castellax i could have deployed the typhon more centrally.

 

Clever placement and sub par rolls really hurt the Typhons output.

 

had it been against the stone gauntlet list i fight before it would have been different. This game though it was s struggle to use.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Nusquam

[GreyCrow]

Damn, the more I read about the units available, the nastier the combinations for a Raven Guard army I think can be made...

 

I mean, Assault Marines as Troops, along with Seekers and Mor Deythan, plus infiltrated Heavy Support and support squadrons sound absolutely delicious ! Moritats and Dark Talons sound awesome as hell as well ! And Deathstorm Drop Pods to provide a bit more dakka.

 

I've got a few questions for you 30k players :

- What's the standard battle size for 30k battles ? I hear anything between 1500 to 2500

- Has anyone played with the Raven Guard Decapitating Strike ? I have trouble seeing the interest of having Dedicated Drop Pods when you can infiltrate every unit that can get one. Perhaps it is best used with units than need to operate within 12" of their mark, because Infiltrating will likely get you 18" from your opponent from what I could see about 30k games because the board is so pack with Marines...

- What's a good Troops choice to start with ? Assault Marines become very tempting compared to Legion Tactical squads...

 

Cheers !

[Slips]

Damn, the more I read about the units available, the nastier the combinations for a Raven Guard army I think can be made...

 

I mean, Assault Marines as Troops, along with Seekers and Mor Deythan, plus infiltrated Heavy Support and support squadrons sound absolutely delicious ! Moritats and Dark Talons sound awesome as hell as well ! And Deathstorm Drop Pods to provide a bit more dakka.

 

I've got a few questions for you 30k players :

- What's the standard battle size for 30k battles ? I hear anything between 1500 to 2500

- Has anyone played with the Raven Guard Decapitating Strike ? I have trouble seeing the interest of having Dedicated Drop Pods when you can infiltrate every unit that can get one. Perhaps it is best used with units than need to operate within 12" of their mark, because Infiltrating will likely get you 18" from your opponent from what I could see about 30k games because the board is so pack with Marines...

- What's a good Troops choice to start with ? Assault Marines become very tempting compared to Legion Tactical squads...

 

Cheers !

This very topic has a very In-depth discussion on units and combos in conjunction with Decapitation Strike. Also, look up Alvarex Maun. He's what makes it even better.

 

Aside from that, Consider this:

 

10 Man Assault Squad : 250 Points before Upgrades.

20 Man Tactical Squad : 250 Points Before Upgrades and have Fury Of the Legion (Double Tap in shooting phase if you haven't moved this turn and forgoe shooting next. Stacks with Rapid Fire)

 

Now, you tell me: What, on paper, looks like a better proposition :p? Consider that they all get Infiltrate/Fleet too due to LA:RG.

 

I'd suggest you take the time and read through the whole topic from page 1. Well worth it.

[GreyCrow]

So I took the time to read the entire thread and thanks guys for the very detailed Tacticas in here ;)

 

I'll be lurking around the forums for the next month, because I'm going to wait for Tempest to decide whether I would go for a Raven Guard army, or whether I would elect the Ultramarines. I'm a beaky lover at heart and I wouldn't play any other Chapter in the 40k Codex Space Marines, but I equally love the boys in blue for that period (Know No Fear really sold me on them). It's all going to depend on what rules their Legion get, but so far the Raven Guard has got a pretty solid place in my heart based on what I've learned about their 30k playstyle !

 

Definitely got your points about the Tactical vs. Assault Squads (especially when comparing Dark Furies to regular Assault Squads), this is something I'll have to consider by watching a few battles. If I play Raven Guard though, I would likely try to avoid exceeding 10 men squads.

 

After reading your points, I'm very interested by a force mixing Infiltrators and Drop Podded force. Without going into too many details, I was thinking of an intilration force composed of Rapier Batteries and a Heavy Support Squad (and possibly Mor Deythan) along a couple Jump Infantry, which would open to Drop Pod assault with Tactical Squads, Support Squads, Seeker Squads and a couple of Deathstorm Pods for good measure. Has someone ran a force like this already ?

I can see how Maun synchronizes very well with such a list.

 

I've got one big question regarding the Mor Deythan though, I can see they can be used either as a long range unit with snipers either as a close range eraser squad with combis. So far, which loadout have you guys had more success with ?

[Slips]

*snip since this is what I feel the most comfortable replying to*

I've got one big question regarding the Mor Deythan though, I can see they can be used either as a long range unit with snipers either as a close range eraser squad with combis. So far, which loadout have you guys had more success with ?

Combi-Deythan have the biggest punch. With Fatal Strike adding Twin-Linked and Rending to what ever combi option you decided to go with its hard to go wrong with them. Sure, it reduces the Snipers threshold down to a 5+ its not as powerful as Twin-Linked Rending Flamers/Melta Guns/Plasma Guns/Volkites(yes, this is an option apparently).

 

Also, on the point of Seeker Squads, Mor Deythan, once again Trump them handily for not that much more of a points investment. The only thing Seekers have over Mor Deythan is Special Issue Ammo.

[GreyCrow]

 

Combi-Deythan have the biggest punch. With Fatal Strike adding Twin-Linked and Rending to what ever combi option you decided to go with its hard to go wrong with them. Sure, it reduces the Snipers threshold down to a 5+ its not as powerful as Twin-Linked Rending Flamers/Melta Guns/Plasma Guns/Volkites(yes, this is an option apparently).

 

Also, on the point of Seeker Squads, Mor Deythan, once again Trump them handily for not that much more of a points investment. The only thing Seekers have over Mor Deythan is Special Issue Ammo.

 

 

That was my thoughts when I read that ! Twin Linked + Rending Flamers sounds like something the Salamanders would be jealous of, while you could pull some crazy tricks with the Plasmas. I'm not too sure about Volkite weapons since I haven't had the chance to use them. Meltas I think would be best put on Support Squads in Pods for my Rite of War idea.

 

Definitely agree with your point about Mor Deythan vs. Seekers ! I thought about Seekers as a lesser version of Mor Deythan to take because I felt the Elite choices of Raven Guard armies are going to be very crowded, very soon

 

Too many cool choices to choose from ! At least I know that Infiltrating Rapiers with Laser Destroyers and/or Heavy Support squads is definitely going to be in the list

 

EDIT : In terms of army balance with the Raven Guard Legiones Astartes rules, I can definitely see how much we can disable the enemy with a swift strike of specialized units. But should we also be preparing for an attrition battle anyways with more standard units ? Or is the impact we can make with our specialty so strong that we can play a sufficiently small army ?

Edited April 14, 2015 by GreyCrow

[defl0]

Seekers have a place though. Remember they have precision strike. So they do things like hit with a six you allocate it to an IC and now you are re rolling 1's for preferred enemy IC. Seekers are my go to plasma squad if i want one, plus the 3" template ammo with rapid fire is absolutely crazy good. Finally they are fast. So in bigger games when you have burned through your elite slots, it gives you another "mor daythan like" unit to keep filling out your force org. 

 

As for your question on attrition, yes it's important. But forget the mind set of bodies = resilience. There are a lot of ways to add resilience. Rhinos give you immunity to small arms fire. Out flank, fliers, pods and reserves let's you stay off the board and not take damage on those turns. Comeleoline gives you better cover saves. You can also hide in combat. I really like 20 man squads with extra close combat weapons with a chaplain. Remember with fleet and infiltrate you can get into combats that you want. You can also lock up several squads so they are no longer shooting. You can also do things line turn rhinos sideways in front of dev squads, taking away their line of sight. Plus their are some neat tricks with blinding and concussive weapons. 

 

So think outside the box. 

 

Finally, a couple of us have tactics blogs as well. The link to mine is in my signature. I know Nusquam has one too, and I'm sure there are probably more. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by defl0

[defl0]

I took the typhon. He didnt hurt it but it did more damage thunderblitzing than any thing else. He kept his tacs in rhinos with extra armor, all his vehicles had it. So i was stripping an hp off here and there and only ended up killing three tacs the whole game with it. He spread them out in a line so if the blast didn't deviate perfectly it only hit a few of any, it never hit directly and my lowest scatter rolls were against his vehicles. There were about 3 ones for wounding too. His only exposed infantry infliltrated far away on the opposite table edge. I had to send the typhon after his hidden Medusa squadron otherwise they would have phospex'd me off the objectives. He also blocked it with medusas so when they wrecked and blocked LoS.

 

Had I outflanked the Castellax i could have deployed the typhon more centrally.

 

Clever placement and sub par rolls really hurt the Typhons output.

 

had it been against the stone gauntlet list i fight before it would have been different. This game though it was s struggle to use.

 

Your opponent sounded like they actually played it pretty well. The Typhon is hard to neutralize. My experience has been the same though. Being in basic transports can really save your ass against it. 

[GreyCrow]

Seekers have a place though. Remember they have precision strike. So they do things like hit with a six you allocate it to an IC and now you are re rolling 1's for preferred enemy IC. Seekers are my go to plasma squad if i want one, plus the 3" template ammo with rapid fire is absolutely crazy good. Finally they are fast. So in bigger games when you have burned through your elite slots, it gives you another "mor daythan like" unit to keep filling out your force org. 

 

As for your question on attrition, yes it's important. But forget the mind set of bodies = resilience. There are a lot of ways to add resilience. Rhinos give you immunity to small arms fire. Out flank, fliers, pods and reserves let's you stay off the board and not take damage on those turns. Comeleoline gives you better cover saves. You can also hide in combat. I really like 20 man squads with extra close combat weapons with a chaplain. Remember with fleet and infiltrate you can get into combats that you want. You can also lock up several squads so they are no longer shooting. You can also do things line turn rhinos sideways in front of dev squads, taking away their line of sight. Plus their are some neat tricks with blinding and concussive weapons. 

 

So think outside the box. 

 

Finally, a couple of us have tactics blogs as well. The link to mine is in my signature. I know Nusquam has one too, and I'm sure there are probably more. 

 

Thanks for the insight Delf0 and thanks for your blog, the read is good I didn't see the FAQ for Seeker Squads with the addition of Precision shots, so yeah you're definitely right that they have a spot ! That with preferred ennemy, I can see their role as a more sustained firebase than the Mor Deythan, with a much stronger impact for the Mor Deythan. So, combi-close range (mix of flamers and meltas) for the Mor Deythan and combi-plasmas liks you said for the Seekers (Preferred Enemy + Precision shots on BS5 is indeed very strong).

 

Regarding the staple Jump units of the Raven Guard in 30k lists, standard Assault Squads don't really seem interesting while Dark Talons just look damn good. Do you guys play with both ? Or do you tend to stick with Dark Talons ?

 

Alternatively, I'm wondering what is the Preferred method of deployment with these two squads. It feels odd having them deploy on the board along with an Infiltrating force, yet at the same time Deep Striking them could prove relatively dangerous because they might get blown to pieces.

Compared to other army lists, I feel that in Raven Guard lists they are more of a relief force or a second wave, with the first wave being Infiltrators and/or Drop Pods with the ROW. Or am I mistaken in that belief ?

Edited April 19, 2015 by GreyCrow

[defl0]

So, I finally got a game in with 6 rapier grav platforms. They did REALLY well. I'm kinda digging 2 X 3 grav rapiers and 2 mor deythan flamer squads as my alpha strike units. 

 

Also, the 20 man tacs with extra ccw continue to be amazing. I can't recommend them enough. 

 

Quick, write up posted here. 

 

http://www.petehappens.com/2015/04/30k-battle-report-raven-guard-vs.html

[Tiger9gamer]

How is the 20 man squad different from a 15 man squad with two CCW's and an apothecary? 

[defl0]

You know. I see other legion run the 15 guys with an apothecary all the time and I get the logic. In other legions it's expensive to transports them and if they do, they usually do nothing. So they build them to sit on objectives, or do defensive tactics like bubble wrap. But Raven Guard don't buy tac squads to sit on objectives... We have to get alpha strike out out f every unit early to tip the scales in our direction. So you can't just think defensive, which is the mindset behind the 15 guys and an apothecary.

 

Tac squads are sunk cost, so how do you get more out of them than your opponent? To make them not dead weight you have to invest in them. In Raven Guard, that means how do you invest in their short range kill potential?

 

So to break it down, my squad has A LOT more attacks. An apothecary adds 2 attacks 3 on the charge. My squad has 8 additional and 12 more on the charge more than your squad with the apothecary. Plus those attacks are being re rolled to hit so it's basically an additional 1/4th multiplier. Plus I'm doing concussive + blind shenanigans, so it adds up quickly, not to mention their are more guns, more crack grenades (which re roll to hit), more wounds to throw at things that negate FNP, etc. 

 

So yeah, an apothecary is 45 points and 5 marines is 50 points and the FNP is basically a 1/3 wound multiplier to the squad. But you lose out heavily on the offense side. 

 

Finally, there is an opportunity cost, elite slots are just too valuable to Raven Guard to spend on an apothecary. Having more mor deythan is far more useful than apothecaries to me. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by defl0

[Tiger9gamer]

Okay, good points. I see in your list you have one 20 man and one 10 man squad, so I see where you are coming from. from my armchair perspective I usually had in my lists 2 15 man squads with 2 CCws, but I may just try the twenty man approach too. 

[defl0]

Yeah. The 20 really come into their own when you add the chaplain. 

 

I run my 10 man with a rhino. It's mostly for scoring as we usually play 7th ed rules. But ti works well as a rescue rhino, and the 10 guys are good as rear guard, but they are good for thinks like medusa batteries left alone in a corner or killing small units like devs.. 

 

I just think infiltrating rhinos are so crazy useful, I have a hard time not taking them if a squad has the option :P

[Tiger9gamer]

good point, but couldn't you also take a rhino for the ten man squad? =P 

 

also, that 10 man squad would be great for outflanking!

[defl0]

Yeah, I'm always tempted to put some points into my 10 man squad tacs in a rhino but at the end of the day their job is to not die or at least die with purpose. So they sometimes take some pot shots and such but usually just run around scoring or grabbing line breaker or I just suicide them to eat up fire power. 

 

Nothing is more annoying that a rhino side ways in front of your spartan  or heavy support squad :p

 

It's really a damn shame we can't take recons as compulsory. 

[Tiger9gamer]

finally... Finally going to get the books. It's already planned out, just need to wait till payday. GW is really making it tempting to buy into the knights, and mechanicus is rumored to be near, but finally decided just to buy the two red books!

[defl0]

So I've been loving my grav cannon rapiers in 1850 game but I've been wanting to run more than 2 squads of Mor Deythan in bigger games, which makes me want to find alternative grav options. 

 

Units that can take grav:

- Forgelord 

- Tech Marines 

- Dreadnoughts

- Contemptors

- Breachers

- Lightnings

- Land Speeders

- Glaive

 

Interestingly, tech marines and land speeders are the cheapest alternative source... but rapiers are 10 points more and get the cannons. 

 

Anything I'm missing?

[Hesh Kadesh]

With an 18" range on Graviton Guns, the limited range is going to need Relentless; which means Forge Lord. Admittedly, you do have infiltrate, which makes it even, but that kind of keeps you static.

 

Dreadnoughts and Contemptors get Deep Strike via access to Dreadnought Drop Pods or via Anvillus if you have little use of your Fast Attack slots, and with dual Power Fists or Chainfists following up, you get a decent damage output; but without Orbital Assault or eating Anvillus Dreads, you're kinda struggling. Breachers with Infiltrate could be pretty tasty; being able to stack 4 haywire shots at 18" first turn on something.

 

Primaris Lightnings come on turn 2, and can only drop a single haywire bomb per turn, and Concussive on a S3 AP4 weapon is kind of useless; most models affected by it have 2 wounds, and hence either a 2+ and/or Look Out Sir to keep them alive.

 

Land Speeders provide the cheapest access.

 

In larger games, consider taking some Gorgonator allies; sure there aren't many benefits for taking them as you can't join their units, but Gorgonators are Relentless, and with a Forge Lord, you can take either a Graviton Gun or go all out and get the Grav Gauntlet for 3 auto Haywire hits. Alternatively, allied Solar Auxilia gives you Graviton Grenade Launchers on Command Squads and Techadept Enginseer Bodyguards (as well as Graviton Guns on the Enginseers, but again, the limited range issue plays a part here in regards to the 18" range, and this time without infiltrate).  At the same time, any legion can take Elite Rapiers; and any legion can be allied with; Salamanders can be allied with, as can Space Wolves, who can bring a Burning Claws Vigilator to the table to run with some Furious Charge Infiltrating Power Weapon Veterans, giving them either Stubborn or the SW Vigilator a S6 AP3 Shred Charge.

 

The Glaive is a fantastic tank; but its main problem is when it's used under 4K tables, when it struggles to get multiple units under its Heavy Beam. This, combined with Deflagrate turns its ancillary damage/collateral into a significant value riser. A pair of quad lascannons on the side gives you a potential 5 Glances a turn, or against Super Heavies, when it comes into its own (although be wary of cover in this instance, as although the heavy beam ignores intervening units, the Quad Las don't) when it can cause around 7-8; which combined with the obvious use of other graviton... well, pop goes the weasel. Although I play with my Glaive using Dynat and Alpha Legion, which gets +1 on the damage chart turning it into effectively AP1, when playing against "upscaling" armies (i.e those who build a 2.5K force, then upscale to 3-4K, but keep the lone Typhon, or worse, run 2 at this level), it soon kills them.

 

Land Speeders are decent; Fast Skimmers at 65pt a pop who near enough guarantee stripping a hull point a turn means that it's pretty much a dead land raider a turn. The problem; AV10 AV2 means that they require Jink to stay alive. People are getting wise to Graviton winning games, so are looking for the best option; Land Speeders being the most obvious delivery for them means that they're the prime target, and the strength of Graviton is the one thing that's keeping the standard Sicaran as a viable Legion tank. While this is the case, I wouldn't advise.

 

i say it's quite a daft idea to run 2 Typhons at this level, because things like Titans and multiple Knight allies come out to play, and you need a way to consistently cause around 10-12 Hull points in damage; Graviton is the best way to do that. If 2 Typhons is 12HP without mitigating factors (like a Titan has, say), then they're going to be struggling. 

 

I think that a pair of 20 infiltrating Breachers with 4 Graviton Guns could be a very nasty little threat at the start of a battle, and one I'd never really considered before. However, I personally wouldn't sacrifice my Graviton Rapiers entirely. 36" is HUGE, and the 3 5" Pie Plates each squad leaves like rabbit droppings can really hinder enemies; just be careful you don't get caught in your charges, because that -2" is a killer, especially as the opponent still gets to overwatch.