[HH1.0] Imperial Fists Tactics

[Caillum]

Semantics. They've got a rule involving Pinning, so it's easier to accept that they now have it in the Legiones Astartes version. RAW is retarded with Forge World.

[Frater Cornelius]

I got enough of deep striking to be fair. Even in 40k I am moving away from it for more ground-based operations.

As for as competitiveness goes, my meta has the whole spectrum covered, ranging from narrative to sick bastards. However, I have made a point in 40k to play competitively with themed lists or lists I like and it did not disappoint thus far, to a point where people no longer know what to expect.

 

The play style I envisioned when coming here was being defensive and ground based. Otherwise I would have played BA :D

I want tough and stubborn units holding the enemy back. Basically a mech/foot hybrid list. And yes, that does include the eventual Spartan :P

 

I played a bit with lists and the one thing I got stuck on is whether to take a Praetor in TDA or Pollux as Warlord, and whether to use Gauntlet Breachers or Pride of the Legion Vets as Troops.

I found something in most other slots. Webbed HB Vets, TDA, Thud Guns or some other form of Rapier, Vindicators, Spartan, ML Heavies with MoS and all that goodness for an IF line. Maybe throw a Contemptor in there as well.

[Slips]

Pollux as Warlord is pretty Solid. Sure, he doesn't have 2+ armor but he does have a 3++ and, in the even that hes getting hit by non ap3+ Templates, he can use his armor save and re-roll any fails. Swinging his power Fist At Initiative (albeit with less attacks) at S10 could be seen as being better than a Paragon Blade since you're IDing anything T5 and Below.

 

Being able to deepstrike a unit (whether you can use this ability in a Stone Gauntlet List is up to you asking your opponent) is also pretty nice.

 

A fortification would also be worth considering especially since we gain stubborn in Cover.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Semantics. They've got a rule involving Pinning, so it's easier to accept that they now have it in the Legiones Astartes version. RAW is retarded with Forge World.

Not really.

 

I'm seeing [sPACE MARINE] Quad Mortar Support Battery, and comments regarding what armies have them, not one mentioned [LEGION] armies.

 

Difference

[Lord Blackwood]

So 10 man Tactical Squads in Rhino's  vs 20 man Tactical Squads 

Given the +1BS from bolters , and the Fury of the Legion  ability is it more cost effective to bring more dudes or to wrap them in transports ? 

[Frater Cornelius]

How about the Onslaught FOC? Only one mandatory Breacher unit for Gauntlet.

[Hesh Kadesh]

1) tactics assumes age of darkness FoC's in general. Mai ly due to the wording that you have to check with your opponent that you use it. Otherwise gives rise to people turning up with triple Warhounds to 2250 games for example.

 

2) rites of war cannot be used with non Age of Darkness FoC's.

 

3) it has been argued that the required troops to field additional elites/fast attack are Compulsory as well.

[Frater Cornelius]

So, you can not use RoW with Onslaught? Or is it debatable?

[Slips]

Per absolute RAW, no you cannot.

 

However, in the name of playing fun friendly games, asking your opponent beforehand if you can is what you should do.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Slipstreams

[Frater Cornelius]

Oh well, then that idea gets out of the window as well... Damn, I thought I had my 2k list plan done. For crying out loud, Iron Warriors look more appealing my the minute. I can see why people joined Horus, easier army building

 

@ Slip - Where is the exact line/wording for that?

Edited October 16, 2015 by Immersturm

[Slips]

I'm AFB right now but I thiiiiiiiiink its in the "Game in the Age Of Darkness" Section of LA:CAL, Tempest and possibly the Admech Book, maybe even Book 4.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Additionally for the thudd gun it comes with chapter tactics and ATSKNF. They should have taken the time to fix it for 30k, but they didn't. I'm sure your opponent would give you permission to use it with pinning if you explained things, but you don't get it stock

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Slip - Yep, thanks. I have found the passage. Well, that is a bummer. Oh well, tough luck. I was this close to accepting Fists as my Legion. Seriously, I hate running a Legion and not using their specific LoW. So annoying. I suppose I could go Pride, but that does not feel IF at all. At that point, I might as well play a generic one. Lame.

[Slips]

Theres nothing wrong with playing Stone Gauntlet its just that you wont be uber-top-tier competitive with it and at 2k Points will find yourself strapped for points quite readily due to the increased Base Tax for the Compulsories.

 

Talk to PhalanxWarder, he plays a 3k Stone Gauntlet List he'd be better suited to help you since I play Pride or No-Rite Templars. Mainly because I dont have enough Breachers.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Slipstreams

[Frater Cornelius]

2k is the maximum most people will play here, especially the 40k people, so I would go with that. But on the subject of Pride, how to IF play those lists at 2k and still capitalize on their strength (which I have difficulties to grasp, as it appears)?

[Slips]

Well, Tac Vets with 2 Suspensor Heavy Bolters and the Sniper Rule make for a Good Shooty Base.

 

Means that, with bolters, they can tackle MC's due to always wounding on a 4+ at worst. They can also risk shooting 2+ Saves and hope for a 6 for Ap2.

 

Stick them in Cover for Stubborn (ie give them a Rhino to use as a Shield) and you've got decent output.

 

If its Marines Shooting Marines the difference is Marginal where they start to eclipse tac squads is when tackling t5+ Units/models Ie Mechanicum Beasties. Up to Gargantuan Creature at which point Sniper only lets them wound on a 6+ which is still better than a Tac Squads "Cant" vs T9+ But this is the exception not the standard.

 

Pride also lets you Teleport Mass Obsec Terminators (Implacable Advance + Scoring in Troops) onto Objectives. Which, while expensive, can consist of 10 Terminators with Storm Shields, a Primus Medicae in TDA with a Storm Shield (for FNP) and the Void Shield Harness Relic for an Av12 bubble.

 

Things like that.

 

Taking Dorn, however, makes Phalanx Warders and Terminators Troops without having to take either Stone Gauntlet or Pride so its something to consider. However, at 2k, better off not taking him.

[Frater Cornelius]

Is it better to run Templars or TDA with Pride. And if TDA, teleport or Spartan? Do lists like that need Thud Gun/Heavy or Mech support?

[Slips]

The Mode of Transportation and Deployment depends on the Job you have in mind.

 

Shooty Terminators can risk getting TP'd in since they can shoot when they drop in.

Assaulting Terminators cannot risk getting gunned down on their way in so a Dreadclaw or Land Raider (for 5) or Spartan (10) are musts.

We, along with the Night Lords are the only Legions who can innately Deep Strike Terminators without having to use a Character or RoW To permit them to do so. Every other Legion either has to Walk them or give them a ride so make use of that knowledge. We're also the only ones (until BA get Released) with Access to the Assault Cannon on Termies.

 

30k's heavy hitters are usually found in Heavy Support and Elites which Contain Tanks, Artillery and Dreadnought all of which are solid choices all around to have so yes, most lists will have them unless running a Specific RoW Such as Orbital Assault or Angels Wrath which restricts the use of them.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, a Phobos can be wrecked fairly easily and given that the Spartan is 90pts more, I would say the only reason to take the Phobos is point constraint.

 

What about deep striking a mixed TDA unit with Praetor, Medicae, a few SS, Bolters and two Assault Cannons to pressure enemy backfield units? Maybe use Vox on Vets in Rhinos to assure they do not scatter.

For 470pts you get 10 TDA with 5 SS/PA dudes, 3 CB/PF and 2 AC/PF. That is less that 5 SS dudes in a Phobos.

Add the Praetor and Medicae with Void, like you mentioned and call it a day. Or is that too many points?

 

Also, does a Vet/TDA list benefit from backfield Heavy Squads who do the tank-busting? Or just pack your Vindicators and Sicarans for mobile shooting?

[Slips]

Seeing as the Preator is 100% a Combat Character, I wouldn't put him with the Squad and instead send him along with another TDA Squad in a Spartan with Flare Shield and Armored Ceramite.

 

The Dropping Terminators would be a good way to instantly Contest a point and force the opponent to divert firepower away from the Spartan.

 

The Downside to HSS Squads is that they're still just Power Armored Bodies and die just like any of them would. The reason people prefer tanks and such to them is that they're more resilient for their cost. And since ours automatically get Tank Hunters, they're that much more of a Target.

 

However, give them a Bunker with Ammo Dump and now you're talking. Add in an Augury Scanner for Interceptor too.

[Frater Cornelius]

Why not a Master of Signal with a 2+ and a naked Apothecary. That should make them more resilient.

 

As for the TDA, that will work at 3k, but at 2k you do not have the point for both deep striking and a Spartan.

 

For example, take

2x 10 Vets with webbed HB in a Rhino and all their usual gubbins

3 Thud Guns

2 Sicaran Battle Tanks / 1 Sicaran and 1 PotMS pie plate Vindicator

 

That is around 1k, with 1k left at 2k limit. Now you need something heavy-hitting and someone to actually access Pride.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Immersturm

[Hesh Kadesh]

A Phobos is 90pts more for stuff that actually does stuff past turn 2. A Spartan is dead meat first turn, or second turn it deploys. 

 

Also, consider that a Spartan takes 5 shots to kill. A Graviton Rapier squadron is taken in 3's to get the most out of the additional elite slot, so 5 shots out of 6 = non wasted. Against a Phobos, those 2 remaining shots are wasted, not slowing down other units. 

 

You can also "afford" not to give it Armoured Ceramite. See flow chart below;

 

1. Melta is strong, people take melta.

2. AV14 Armoured Ceramite becomes a thing.

3. Melta becomes weak.

4. Armoured Ceramite becomes a dead weight in a list which doesn't face melta.

5. Melta becomes strong, but risk of Armoured Ceramite limits melta. 

6. Identify potential melta delivery systems, eliminate first.

 

On a Spartan though, you're already investing enough points in its Flare Shield etc that you might as well. Nothing more ridiculous than standing around in your own Deployment zone with 50% of your army limited to a 6" move each turn.

 

The problem with the Teleporting Assault dudes is that you can always walk away. 

 

Put them in a Raider, and you're Moving Flat Outing Turn 1, Turn 2 Moving 6, Deploying 6", Assaulting 2d6" for an assault range turn 2 of 26"-36" over two turns. A TDA unit, (presuming Cataphractii because you've got shooters in there and to keep the points low) Deep Striking is reliant on a 3+ roll to come in, may scatter badly and possibly mishap, means you can make a whole 8 BS4 S6 Rending Attacks (5-6 hits, 4-5 wounds, 2-4 saves), and cannot assault until turn 3, limited to a 6+2d6 (8-18" charge) against units which can move 6", and run d6" away during their own turn. 

 

In addition to having Deep Struck, you're risking a trio of Magna Melta shots, Barrage medusa rounds landing on your chaps heads, or Difficult Terrain causing Graviton Shots on you, reducing your Charge by -2" and your move by 3" for an average 5" less movement.

 

You also have 470pts of your army tied up into 10 Men sat in Reserve, not a threat to anyone. Unlike a Pod list which is bringing guys down turn 1, you are down ~25% first turn. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Fair enough. However, how are 5 dudes in a Phobos any better? As far as I can tell, you would run them either that way or not bother at all.

[Hesh Kadesh]

If you were going competitive, you'd deep strike combi-flamers terminators onto an objective. 2:3 axes:swords ratio.

 

5 Dudes in a Phobos is 450pts for a 2+/3++ with a 2:3 Axe:Sword ratio. They'll chew any non Terminator unit that they come up against in CC. Axes are there for the few elites or annoying characters running with Artificer Armour. Phobos can still Ram other units, block lines of sight and avenues of an attack. They can be annoying etc, but they're better than a Spartan at it, simply because they're equally capable at it, and do it with less points.

 

For what it's worth, I've yet to see a Land Raider (or Spartan) army do well outside of early 30K before people picked up on Grav is King. 

[Frater Cornelius]

If you were going competitive, you'd deep strike combi-flamers terminators onto an objective. 2:3 axes:swords ratio.

 

5 Dudes in a Phobos is 450pts for a 2+/3++ with a 2:3 Axe:Sword ratio. They'll chew any non Terminator unit that they come up against in CC. Axes are there for the few elites or annoying characters running with Artificer Armour. Phobos can still Ram other units, block lines of sight and avenues of an attack. They can be annoying etc, but they're better than a Spartan at it, simply because they're equally capable at it, and do it with less points.

 

For what it's worth, I've yet to see a Land Raider (or Spartan) army do well outside of early 30K before people picked up on Grav is King. 

 

So what is your take on IF then? A tactic that builds on their strength that is, not a tactic that could very well be replicated with another Legion with potentially better result.. if such an approach even exists in your eyes.