[HH1.0] Imperial Fists Tactics

[Slips]

its all relative to what you want out of a legion army.

 

Stubborn is cover is, honestly, pretty meh since we have vexillas to reroll failed morale anyways where applicable.

 

+1BS for bolt weaponry is nice...if you use a lot of it. A recurring theme in legion armies is that bolters arent the best anti-meq weapon when you have access to equivalently priced but better options.

 

Re-roll to hit in challenegs for characters only really benefits the guys in challenges and if they decline the challenge, no benefit.

 

3++ Generic Terminators let ours have a chance to stand up vs Legion Specifics which are usually much meaner in combat (see Firedrakes and Red Butchers). T5 terminators in a Stone Gauntlet list are nice but youre giving them a ride at that point since you cant deepstrike. Having 3++ TDA characters is also nice but were not the only legion who can do this (cyber familiars + cataphractii).

 

Assault Cannons are cool because of their output but thats about it.

 

If you're out to absolutely crush balls and win, IF are, sadly, not the Legion for you: Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and Sons of Horus do it better due to their Alpha Strike potential.

 

If you want to play IF its because you WANT to play IF. At this point its coming up with a theme for your army and building towards it.

[Frater Cornelius]

Oh, no worries. I am here because I want to play IF. But that does not mean that I will not try to make the most of it. I enjoy optimizing stuff and I am pretty competitive, partially because of my meta.

Hence the discussion. Do not mistake it for me whining about IF not being the 30k equivalent of Eldar. This is just me analysing stuff and gathering information, because that is part of the fun for me ;)

Edited October 16, 2015 by Immersturm

[Slips]

Oh, no worries. I am here because I want to play IF. But that does not mean that I will not try to make the most of it. I enjoy optimizing stuff and I am pretty competitive, partially because of my meta.

Hence the discussion. Do not mistake it for me whining about IF not being the 30k equivalent of Eldar. This is just me analysing stuff and gathering information, because that is part of the fun for me

Oh Dont worry. Just dont be surprised that you end up seeing the same units over and over again the more optimized a list becomes.

 

Its why building to a theme and then optimizing might turn out better for you than going for Optimized -> Theme.

 

Just Spitball some Ideas on units you'd want to include in their respective FoC slots, we should be able to hammer something out. Its how I spiraled out of Control an ended up with ~10k Points in FW Imperial Fists: Trying to build the 1st Company.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Slipstreams

[Hesh Kadesh]

Can't really think of any other legion which can replicated sending 5 Storm Shield equipped Terminators onto an objective, short of Salamanders.

 

Not really sure either what you want me to say? "I was only joking, Imperial Fists are the bestests"? Imperial Fists are kinda crap; they gain accurate Bolters, but who ever won games with Bolters? Terminators are okay, but 2+/3++ ceased being a measure of resilience midway through 5th edition and people learned how to counter TH/SS Assault Terminator Space Marines.

 

Stubborn when sat in terrain. Eh. It's a nice boost. Not going to get you many objectives though, but will let your home objective holders not run I suppose? Picking up some Aegis Lines gives you Stubborn Tactical Squads which do nothing for 4 turns until they decide they need to move to capture an objective. Anything better like a Bastion or Firestorm Redoubt is superfluous to your tactics as that makes the unit within fearless. 

 

Tank Hunter Heavy Weapons... eh. Tank Hunter Flakk squads would be okayish if Deredeo's didn't exist for the same points (210pts vs 220 for Eddy+Aiolos). If facing Knights, 10 Tank Hunter Lascannons gives you 6-7 hits, and maybe 4-6 Hull points in damage plus a couple of bits of damage from penetrations (But is otherwise dead)... 

 

Rite of War is naff. Only one consul allowed, no Deep Strike, heavily restricted elites and fast attack. Your breachers are T5? Oh, cool. That means your FNP works against S10? Oh, okay. That's neat. But that means you only have one more Elite/Fast Attack, before you need to sink a further 225pts into a Breacher squad (arguably, see above). Alternatively, save that Elite slot and take a Primus Medicae; but then you can't scout your Breachers, and even if you run a Vigilator, it's only a single squad.

 

Running Attached Apothecaries/Primus means no Transport, and if you have them on foot, and run them to get in place, why are you playing the Stone Gauntlet? Can't charge either and claim that? So, you've moved 24" over 4 turns, hoping that your opponent is within 12" range to let you fire your rapid fire weapons, all the while being only slightly more resilient than normal MEQ's, because lets face it, limiting yourself to mid tier units isn't going to force your opponent to leave his Typhon/Vindicators at home.

 

Templars? MEQ killers in a game around which MEQ killing has been the core concept of the game? Congratulations, you've managed to spend 175pts+250 for an assault transport, or 175pts+100 for a Dreadclaw to gain a turn 2 assault in a unit who can kill MEQ's? 275pts for 20 WS5 S5 I4 Attacks, presuming none die to overwatch?

 

Phalanx Warders; unless playing Zone Mortalis, or need some CC Breachers, leave these guys at home. Benefits? For +30pts, you gain +1 Initiative during one turn, but only with CCW's, other option is Power Fists. Slightly Cheaper Flamers though.

 

Sigismund/Polux; about the only bit of light at the end of the long tunnel. Polux with Master Tactician and his Deep Strike means for 165pts he's a fantastic budget option to redeploy your army and give variation. Sigi is a face eater extraordinaire; best in the game. 

 

Dorn; Cheapest Primarch. Unwieldy Weapon isn't such a problem on a Primarch, and limit on a 3+ to wound is brilliant against the typical anti-primarch tactics (like podding Melta) 6-8 S6 Shred AP2 attacks on the charge is actually pretty nice at WS8 (compare to Kurze's 7 WS8, S6 Shred Attacks for +50pts. Kurze does a lot more; such as Jump Pack and providing Hit and Run to a unit (one of the few reasons to attach a Primarch to a unit), and D3 S6 hammer of wrath's and his Widowmakers are pretty incredible for increasing damage).

 

Imperial Fists "suck". They're a Tier 3, maybe Tier 4 legion.

 

Tier 1 is Raven Guard and certain Alpha Legion drop pod builds.

Tier 2 is Alpha Legion, Sons of Horus and Night Lords

Tier 3 is World Eaters, Rocket Vomit Pride of the Legion Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, Word Bearers Hol Beloth/Daemons/Lorgar Trans and maybe some builds of Fists

Tier 4 is Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Salamanders, Fists, Word Bearers.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[Frater Cornelius]

Now that is what you call a coherent summary. Why not what from the very beginning? :D

 

But anyway, IF being the weakest :cuss around? Challenge accepted ;)

[Slips]

If you want weakest around, you look at the EC. They, truly, have gotten the shortest end of the stick v_v

[Charlo]

If you want weakest around, you look at the EC. They, truly, have gotten the shortest end of the stick v_v

Agreed. Hopefully the new RoW they and other older legions get will be better, and not fully like "oh we're chaos now"

[Lord Blackwood]

So I find myself with 15 bodies , 10 shields and no idea what to do with them , was hoping to get some advice 

I was considering doing breachers or possibly doing  destroyers , not sure how useful destroyers would be though 

Maybe someone can help  me out here 

Edited October 18, 2015 by Bladewolf

[Slips]

You can use 5 for a Command Squad if you have a Banner Lying about; you want to give them Combat Shields Anyways.

 

But, that said, what type of shield are they? If they're the Templar Brethren Shield, unless agreed upon prior, they wont be able to be passed of as Boarding Shields.

 

Destroyers are useful for Killing MC's using their Rad Missile Launcher. Otherwise, you need 2 BP on each marine and they can't use shields. Also, unless youre running them in a Land Raider, you want to give them Jump Packs.

 

If you can Magnetize the arms and have Bolters lying around, you can use 10 for Tac Vets with multiple Load Outs; though they also can't use shields and the remaining 5 for a Command Squad.

[Lord Blackwood]

The enviorment im in ill likely be able to get by with using them as boarding shields if  I paint em diffrently from my templar brethren shields 

two bolt pistols per marine might be a tad challenging but I might have the bits to get it done   I certainly have some missle launchers laying around  

I should have  some bolters  though I dont have jump packs for the destroyters 

So Tac Vets vs Breachers 

[Slips]

Magnetized Tac Vets would be a better deal if you have enough of their Weapon Options lying about.

[Lord Blackwood]

What sort of things would you consider staples as far as  options go  ?  Two Heavy Bolters Vox  Vexilla  combi weapon on the sargent with sniper ? 

Im very bad at magnets  so .. .yea magnets would be bad

Edited October 18, 2015 by Bladewolf

[Slips]

I personally never rate combi-weapons unless taken en-masse; I'd rather have the Sarge in Artificer Armor with a Power Weapon.

 

But yes, the Standard 2HB & Sniper is pretty good for Imperial Fists.

 

I say magnetize them because sometimes you'll want to run them with Tank Hunters, Melta Bombs and pretty much no other upgrades for Armor Busting.

 

or 

 

2 Heavy Flamers with Sniper for ZM Games since they gain Shred in ZM

 

or

 

As a CC unit, Missile Launchers, etc.

[Lord Blackwood]

If I must use my shields how would you outfit a squad of 10 using them ? 

[Slips]

Only way would be 10 More templar or a Command Squad and 5 Templar.

 

If they're Breachers, its 8 Boltguns + 2 Graviton Guns.

[Lord Blackwood]

How would you outfit a unit of 3 jetbikes ? 

[Slips]

Melta Bombs and Volite Culverin or Multi Melta. If you take the sarge give him a Power Weapon.

 

Thats about it, really.

 

Avoid the Plasma Cannon since the moment you jink it turns into wasted points.

[Lord Blackwood]

Thanks ,  will probably go with the volkite so I can join the martian deathray club. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Is it worth taking units larger than 3?

[Slips]

Depends. They have a Large Footprint but I would aim for 6 Max with 2 Specials otherwise they're too easy to shoot at.

[Frater Cornelius]

By the way, how would a list built around Sigismund and Templar Brethen look/work? I do not mean spamming Brethren, seeing as they require a transport and possibly a Primus Medicae eaing up a lot of point. But having those and an army built around them

 

Cheers ;)

[Slips]

In a 2.5k or 3k (cant remember, been a while) Game I ran:

 

HQ:

Sigismund (potl)

 

Troops:

10 Man Templar

5 Man TDA w/ Telly (both 5 man squads literally served no purpose this game)

5 Man TDA w/ Telly

 

Elites:

Contemptor w/ Kheres and Grav Chain FIst

Contemptor w/ Plasma Cannon and Plasma Blaster (essentially glanced himself to death this game v_v)

 

FA:

8 Combi-Plas Seekers in a Land Raider Proteus w/ Exploratory

 

HS:

Spartan

Deredeo

Achilles

 

My opponent was running a Test Death Guard list of:

 

HQ:

Morturg

Praevian w/ 5 Castellax w/ Dark Lances

 

Troops:

20 Breachers, Grav Guns

20 Tac Blob

5 or 10 Caliver Squad

 

Elites:

10 JP Destroyers

 

HS:

Sicaran

Deredeo (that we both forgot he actually put in his list so ended up playing without it :p)

 

+++

 

The game essentially came down to Sigismund and the Templar (but mostly sigismund) Ramming into his grouped up Breacher/Caliver/Destroyer squads and proceeding to rip them a new one over 6 Turns. Ie: Sigismund solo wiping the Destroyer Squad that charged into the combat with Breachers and Running them off the Table T2 for First Blood. Helps that my opponent accidentally moved his Grav Guns T2 meaning the Spartan got to unload with 1 HP remaining.

 

My 2 TDA Squads to die like chumps to FotL after Deepstriking in Backfield.

 

My Seekers killing 2 + 3Wounds to the Castellax Squad...but then dying like chumps to Massed Chem Flamers with the last 2 Castellax getting Bopped on the head each by my Kheres Contemptor (who had 1HP left at this point and refusing to die to Smash Attacks) before dying to the Praevians Thunderhammer on T6.

 

My Achilles Trolling the Castellax all game and pumping S8 Shots into them Non-Stop. The way terrain was placed, the Castellax were stuck in a tight spot and were slow to move / had no LoS to anything BUT the Achilles....who is immune to Lance. Meaning their Darkfires could not hurt it.

 

My Deredeo Killing his Sicaran.

 

+++

 

Going forward, I'll probably run something similar but would probably Ditch the Seekers or instead give them a Vigilator and only use 10 man TDA Squads and not deepstrike them like an idiot as well as gear them up a bit smarter.

 

Game also game down to Sigismund (1W, T3 due to Destroyers) Templar Champion (1W) vs Mortug in a combat to see who would consolidate onto the 3rd Objective to break the tie.

 

Luckily for me, Morturg was forced to Accept Sigismunds Challenge :p

[Frater Cornelius]

Interesting. I would love to run a list with Templars at the center, but since I face loads of 40k Grav, I fear for their transport.

[Slips]

Auxiliary Drives.

 

Ignore Immobilize results on a 4+! its not perfect, but hey!

[Frater Cornelius]

Oh, interesting. May take one more Grav shot to kill. Did not know that. Thanks.

 

But back to Templars, Siggy, the Primus Medicae and 8 Brethren in a Phobos cost 930pts with all their gubbins. That is almost half my army consolidated in a unit riding their transport. If the Raider is taken out T1, half my army will be taken out of the game.

 

Worth it nonetheless?