[HH1.0] Sons of Horus Tactica

[Sanct]

Since when did the Praetor get 6 attacks ?

 

 

Digital lasers give +1 and having 2 specialist weapons (power fist and paragon blade) if you don't take terminator armour gives another for 6 attacks standing still.

 

2 wounds justaerin would be a dream I don't even try to imagine.. giving them more staying power vs small weapons would actually be greater than reducing their points...

 

Give Abbadon more attacks (5), EW and a 3++ and he would be scary as heck.

 

Alongside 2 wounds justaerin I guess they would be a very popular choice..

 

Fething EW. Such an unbalanced rule.

 

Would be better to give him something like 'still gets to swing at I1 even if removed from play by any means in that assault phase' at least 6 attacks (since he doesn't get the Merciless Fighters bonus) and furious charge.

[PastelAvenger]

Digital Weapons buddy that's how the Praetor gets 5 attacks

[Charlo]

I bet Justaerian and SoH characters in terminator armour (or maybe just keep it on abaddon) will gain the ability to sweeping advance, among other rules - that would be a nice buff and fit with thier fluff and style.

[depthcharge12]

I bet Justaerian and SoH characters in terminator armour (or maybe just keep it on abaddon) will gain the ability to sweeping advance, among other rules - that would be a nice buff and fit with thier fluff and style.

It's a pipe dream, but it'd be awesome if they could.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Justaerin won't, they're in Cataphractii. If there is going to be a unit who can do that, it's going to be Phoenix Terminators, and possibly only on the charge due to the momentum necessary.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Hesh Kadesh

[depthcharge12]

Hoping I don't get flamed here lol but has anyone considered slapping a few plasma pistols on a Reaver squad? I know they're a bit overpriced but it gives you 2 AP2 shots (10 guys with 2 special weapons) at BS4 with assassins eye to potentially snipe out an AA Sgt or any other valuable target before charging in. Unfortunately it runs 30 points, but if you take the black Reaving you could slap the MoS in for BS5.

 

It's too bad that the one assault plasma weapon is given to a terminator squad with relentless :facepalm

[GreyCrow]

Hoping I don't get flamed here lol but has anyone considered slapping a few plasma pistols on a Reaver squad? I know they're a bit overpriced but it gives you 2 AP2 shots (10 guys with 2 special weapons) at BS4 with assassins eye to potentially snipe out an AA Sgt or any other valuable target before charging in. Unfortunately it runs 30 points, but if you take the black Reaving you could slap the MoS in for BS5.

 

It's too bad that the one assault plasma weapon is given to a terminator squad with relentless :facepalm

 

For shooty Reavers, I'd rather go for full Volkites. For 35 points you can equip 5 guys, so a lot more chance of rolling 6s for Precision Strikes (albeit not Ignoring armor).

 

Based on their base loadout and their cheaper options, these guys seem to aim for weight of dice rather than quality of attacks in my mind.

[Marshal Loss]

I wouldn't bother. You'll only get to fire once, maybe twice per game, and there's always the risk you'll remove the target or two that lets you make the initial charge. This risk is mitigated by taking a Dreadclaw/Jump Packs, but for 30 points I don't see why you wouldn't take 3x power weapons instead. They'll end up killing more enemies every time by the end of an assault phase than if you had fired two plasma pistols first then charged without the equivalent points in power weapons.

[PastelAvenger]

In my opinion Plasma Pistols are always pointless. 15pts is way too high considering how close you need to be. It is the most horrifically over priced piece of wargear in every book.

 

Has anyone see the answers to the questions that were asked recently? Basically no points cost will be changed but units will be given rules to enable them to be playable. This kinda goes against what FW have been saying. He sent me a picture but I will see if I can get a link to the site.

[GreyCrow]

In my opinion Plasma Pistols are always pointless. 15pts is way too high considering how close you need to be. It is the most horrifically over priced piece of wargear in every book.

 

Has anyone see the answers to the questions that were asked recently? Basically no points cost will be changed but units will be given rules to enable them to be playable. This kinda goes against what FW have been saying. He sent me a picture but I will see if I can get a link to the site.

 

I can live with that ! In that case, we'd better expect some crazy rules for the Justaerin due to the super premium they're paying :p

[Charlo]

Plasma pistols are... A very strange case.

 

One way to look at them is that you get a S7 ap2 attack and get to use it in cc for an extra hit, this sort of justifies the cost. Also being the strength that it is, you can potentially KO a terminator or two, or even a light - medium vehicle with a bit of luck. Reducing them to ten points feels too cheap when you think of it like that.

 

They're expensive, but they have a place, plus they're uber cool. If they had S6 but didn't get hot (which would make sense...) they'd be auto takes.

[GreyCrow]

Plasma pistols are... A very strange case.

 

One way to look at them is that you get a S7 ap2 attack and get to use it in cc for an extra hit, this sort of justifies the cost. Also being the strength that it is, you can potentially KO a terminator or two, or even a light - medium vehicle with a bit of luck. Reducing them to ten points feels too cheap when you think of it like that.

 

They're expensive, but they have a place, plus they're uber cool. If they had S6 but didn't get hot (which would make sense...) they'd be auto takes.

 

I like the way you look at it !

 

To me, Plasma Pistols feels like a micro level upgrade. They won't change things in the grand scheme of things so you can't strategically base tactics on them. But at a "micro" level (as in within a single turn, unit to unit fight), they provide just an extra edge.

They're not enough to define the role of a unit though, even when limited at 2 per squad (this is also how I look at any weapons limited to 1 per 5).

[Charlo]

I think if they're upgrades allowed in addition of other normal upgrades. For example, two dudes can take them and 1 in 5 can take a full special weapon, then they can give you the edge depending on your squads role. I mean, people go on about gibbed charges but if you are in close and you can kill another two Marines pre charge and stop them attacking back on combat that's only good.

 

Plua you kill anything bigger and uglier than a Tac marine and you're laughing.

 

Props to the Alphas too for preffered enemy on them as well.

[depthcharge12]

I mean I slap one on my DA praetor and he usually snipes a terminator or strips a wound from a character if they're poorly placed (though there's LoS to contend with).

 

I think that if it was 10 points, I'd auto take. But I think it meshes well with Reavers since you're going for weight of attacks and AP2 won't benefit from Merciless Fighters unless you have a Paragon blade. Plus you have assassins eye to snipe characters. I wish plasma guns wouldn't prevent you from charging, but c'est la vie. It'd be nice to take plasma blasters.

[GreyCrow]

I mean I slap one on my DA praetor and he usually snipes a terminator or strips a wound from a character if they're poorly placed (though there's LoS to contend with).

 

I think that if it was 10 points, I'd auto take. But I think it meshes well with Reavers since you're going for weight of attacks and AP2 won't benefit from Merciless Fighters unless you have a Paragon blade. Plus you have assassins eye to snipe characters. I wish plasma guns wouldn't prevent you from charging, but c'est la vie. It'd be nice to take plasma blasters.

 

They aren't a bad upgrade per se. But their performance is not something you can count on when playing your unit ;) It might gib a Terminator or two before a charge, but it's only going to provide a very minor local advantage.

 

Still better than a bolt pistol though, and for Reavers still better than equipping Bolters with Banestrike since it doesn't prevent charging. It's workable as an upgrade if you want your Reavers to be mainly BP+CCW as it costs twice less than Volkites for the same number of models, but in this case you'll be relying purely on the base loadout of the squad to do damage, and maybe have good surprises with these pieces of gear.

 

Truly, it's exactly the same case as looking at special/heavy weapons on Tactical Marines. They're nice to have and might provide some extra local supriority but you simply don't have enough of them to completely define the role of the squad :)

[Sanct]

Still better than a bolt pistol though

 

 

Erm...Use both through gunslinger? Or even put it on the chief with a hand flamer?

[Hesh Kadesh]

What special/heavy weapons on tactical marines? Do you mean Veterans?

 

GreyCrow, I'm not entirely sure what you mean half the time, but it seems like you play a very different game than what many people play, even within the 30k community. Can we say that at least you try and you're always so enthusiastic? Which is awesome, but half the time, some of things you say don't really make a lot of sense, sorry.

 

Special Weapons on (Vet) Tacs? Of course that defines a squad. A squad with Flamers, Power Swords and Furious Charge isn't going to be attacking Terminators, while a squad with Sniper and Plasma's can do so, as can a squad with Tank Hunters and Meltaguns to a lesser extent, but is better served plating up Dreadnoughts or Rhinos. 

 

The only unit which really gets any benefit from Banestrike Bolters is Shooty Terminators, and that's an Alpha Legion only option, which have the ability to move and fire full distance, weather close range return fire to some extent, gain Twin-linked, and only lose 3"/6" of doubletap/single shot range on a S4 AP5, in return for a chance at AP3. Veterans don't have the maneuverability, and paying 20pts to do worse than you would in an assault isn't worth it, while Seekers get 6" extra range, shred, and actual rending, even including the extra movement that not being heavy affords the banestrike move and fire. I don't think any unit takes Banestrike to be a gamebreaker, but in the case of none Terminators, it's a downgrade you have to pay money for/give up Scorpius Bolts for.

 

Still no idea why Scorpius bolts have to be given up either though. "Oh, sorry Marine, I know you're a super stronk awesome headhunter type dude jumping out of a Storm Eagle like some double hard ninja commando and shooting some loyalist scum in the face, but because you want to fire a few extra shots at closer range than is healthy for you, I can't let you take the same Scorpius Bolts that everyone else has access to, because reasons.

[depthcharge12]

Lol I was thinking that too. I'd rather drop something like the frag bolts.

[Slips]

Lol I was thinking that too. I'd rather drop something like the frag bolts.

But the Frag Bolts are a source of Infinite Hilarity and/or Frustration!

 

Imagine in ZM Rapid Firing a squad of 10 Seekers! 20 S3 3" Shred Templates, yo! Also great for horde armies upon whom the Ap3 on a 6 of Banestrike would literally be pointless.

[Terminus]

 

GreyCrow, I'm not entirely sure what you mean half the time, but it seems like you play a very different game than what many people play, even within the 30k community. Can we say that at least you try and you're always so enthusiastic? Which is awesome, but half the time, some of things you say don't really make a lot of sense, sorry.

LOL, sorry, I had to quote this for emphasis, as it has been an endless source of incredulity for me.  GreyCrow, I love your enthusiasm buddy (we have a guy like you in our Warmahordes group, except he's French-Canadian... maybe it's a French thing? ), but you gotta stop treating this game like a reality simulator, because more often than not, common sense or how things "should work" need not apply.  Actually playing some games instead of vicariously living them out on the forums would probably give you better perspective, as well.

 

Banestrike rounds on Legion Terminators are not awful (do Grey Knights still get +1S bolts for 20 points per unit?) if you have a big enough unit, as it gives them slightly better guns after they use up their combi-weapons.  Only issue is, you really want a bunch of Terminators to make it worth your while.  The only configuration for regular Legion Terminators that ever comes up for consideration in my lists is a 5-man squad with plasma-blaster and combi-plasmas, and paying essentially 5 points per guy for the other 4 to get banestrike rounds isn't really worth it.  If I'm taking a larger terminator squad, that usually means either Lerneans, or a borrowed unit like Tyrants or Red Butchers.  If Lerneans could take a discount to go down to banestrike storm bolters from their volkite chargers, I would take them all day.

 

Plasma pistols are pretty bad due to cost and risk to carrier, especially since if it's a Sarge or something like that, you're already likely investing in gear to make him either combative or an artificer armour bullet catcher.  If it's regular mooks, you usually have to give up access to a better weapon to get the plasma pistol. Assassin's Eye is cute, but it's very hard to actually snipe out characters since they still get LoS saves.

 

Hey @Slipstream, looks like this turned into an Alpha Legion tactica too, time to merge the threads!

Edited January 5, 2016 by Terminus

[GreyCrow]

@Terminus : First of all, you have no idea about my track record or my experience with 40k and 30k, so bringing up your assumptions on them brings nothing to the conversation. If you want to think of me as a newbie with Games Workshop games that isn't able to score a win, go ahead man if that makes you feel good, I really don't care But if experience is only what you consider, yes I'll admit I'm relatively new to 30k with around 10 games under my belt, but I've got extensive playtime with 40k in a very unforgiving meta with 2+ rerollable deathstars, Eldar, Necron and Tau cheese platters too or even Space Marines with 500 points of free transports at 1850 points. And since both 30k and 40k share the same ruleset save for scoring, it's really another Codex in a (much) cooler setting.

 

And yes, I enthusiastically look at every option available rather than shutting my brain down after reading internet wisdom

 

@Hesh : I was referring to the 40k Tactical Marine as a general example about why 2 weapons (amongst the ones that we have around. And before you bring up that it's a completely different game, once again, the important bit is that 2 guys carrying a special weapon in a squad of 10 isn't going to define the role of the squad with the weapons available.

 

If you can't handle thinking about army lists both from 40k and 30k codexes simultaneously, let's take your example about Veterans and the exact loadout you mentionned. Of course you aren't going to attack Terminators with a Flamer/Power Sword (I assume you mean a couple Power Swords here and there rather than full Power Swords all around)/Furious Charge Veteran squad. But that's not because of the flamers/power swords, and not even your choice of special rule. That's because the entire loadout and statlines of Veterans aren't geared to properly attack Terminators efficiently, regardless of the loadout.

 

Let's see a couple of loadouts that are more geared towards taking on Terminators (on a 10 men strong Veteran unit against Cataphractii, for argument's sake) :

1) 2 Plasmaguns, Sniper, in Rapid Fire range : 1.11 Terminators dead from the Plasmaguns, 0.888 dead from the Sniper, 0.59 dead from the regular bolter wounds, so 2.5 Terminators dead per volley. Not too shabby for a 230 points units, but irrelevant in the grand scheme.

2) All with Power Axes with Furious Charge in melee (no charge bonus, to see the worst case scenario) : 5 Terminators dead, a tad better, on a 300 points units. Well, unfortunately, they're in melee so they're going to get attacked back, probably at the same initiative (I1 in this case) and the lack of invulnerable saves will be felt. If they are fighting 5 Terminators with Power Axes for instance, they're going to lose 3.33 of their models. So, it's a good tradeoff since you're killing off 1.67 more models than the opponent and that each model costs more.

 

Let's compare this to an equivalently pointed Terminator killer squad : the Plasma Support squad.

1) For 230 points, you get 7 Support Marines with Plasmaguns : In Rapid fire, that's 3.88 Terminators dead.

2) For 300 points, you get 7 Support Marines with Plasma : In Rapid Fire, that's 5 Terminators dead too.

 

When you compare loadouts 1 and 1 and loadouts 2 and 2 between the Veterans and the Support Squad, do you see a pattern ? It's the fact that untis are more role defined when everyone is geared the same. Which is a no brainer really. But what this also shows is that 1 weapon in 5 guys, with the current weapon selection, doesn't really define a role. In the case of the Plasma/Sniper Veteran squad, you'll also notice that the Sniper highly contributes to the body count.

If your opponent's Terminators cower in their pants when they see a Veteran squad with 2 Plasmaguns, they should go back to the training drills

 

I could give you the same analogy between 2 Meltas and Tank Hunters, versus a full melta bomb Veteran Squad. With a bit of luck, 2 Meltas and Tank Hunters will kill a Rhino, which is nice when you look at the small picture (unit versus unit engagements), but in the big picture it's hardly an anti-tank platform.

 

Like I said when I answered to depthcharge, special weapons with a 1 per 5 access are not a bad option because they are mainly there to prevent your unit getting caught with its pants down in a "local" (as in unit versus unit scenario, rather than the tablewide picture). It's not going to define the role of the unit though like gear that is available to every model in the squad.

Much like your 2 melta veteran squad really. They're going to perhaps finish off a Rhino that wasn't completely killed by your other shooting by perhaps stripping off a hull point if your opponent is stupid enough to not take advantage of cover (0.59 HP down on a Rhino with a 4+ cover with 2 meltas with Tank Hunters outside of melta range) or maybe blow it up if Tzeench is with them.

It's a nice to have option when needed, but not going to turn your Veterans into a dedicated anti-tank unit, while their role is primarily anti-infantry.

Edited January 5, 2016 by GreyCrow

[Terminus]

My apologies, I am not implying anything about your track record. It's just that as little as a month ago you were still asking people on suggestions for your first 30K legion, and many of your theorems fly in the face of reality. I meant no offense.

[GreyCrow]

My apologies, I am not implying anything about your track record. It's just that as little as a month ago you were still asking people on suggestions for your first 30K legion, and many of your theorems fly in the face of reality. I meant no offense.

 

None taken, I just wanted to reposition the discussion outside of the sphere of my little person ! I didn't want to sound harsh or dry either, so my apologies as well. My analysis, much like any other analysis, aren't always true partly because we're all experimenting and that there are many variables to take into account for each unit depending on how the game and the dice gods go, but if they're wrong I like them to be proven wrong with facts rather than just dismissed, because on top of making me appear as an even bigger idiot, the logic will usually bring something to people reading the threads

 

Back on topic, you are 100% right when talking about Assassin's Eye being cute (anything that requires a 6 to trigger is cute), and thinking about sniping with Plasma Pistols is wishful thinking too. Assassin's Eye works better the higher number of attacks/shot you give, which is why a Volkite on every guy is a preferable upgrade, because on the charge out of a Dreadclaw 10 guys will throw 60 total attacks (shooting + charging), which is what this unit seems to be built for anyways.

But they're not an upgrade to be excluded, because in the off chance the unit is forced to deal with 2+ saves (and that means that it's been outplayed by quite a significant margin), then it has that extra something to do a little extra something.

 

Like in the case of Veterans, it's not something on which you can base the entire playstyle of a unit however.

Edited January 5, 2016 by GreyCrow

[Marshal Loss]

What you're basically saying is that you don't think plasma pistols can be excluded because - on the off chance they have to deal with 2+ armour - then you get an extra handful of AP2 shots?

 

If the (Reaver) unit has to deal with 2+ saves, it's better to either go for anti 2+ (combi plasma, in which case you're building a Reaver unit to fulfill a role which others do better) or anti 2+ in melee (power axes, fists - which at least take advantage of their high volume of attacks in melee and most terminators are not equipped with swords/claws so you'll trade kills reasonably well) than hoping for a lucky pot shot from an overpriced pistol. Honestly, there is no situation - ever - where I think you can say that a plasma pistol is a good idea.

 

There's a reason why no Space Marine army of any type ever uses plasma pistols. For Reavers, that's an extra 2 bodies, 3/5 of the jump pack cost for an entire unit, 3 power weapons, 2 power fists, etc, etc. It's just never worth it.

 

The reality is that Reavers aren't a unit you ideally want charging anything with a 2+ save unless you can overwhelm a smaller unit with huge numbers of attacks in an opportunistic charge or an assault combined with other similar units. Factor that into your army list and make plans for when you encounter 2+ saves accordingly.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Marshal Loss

[Terminus]

Then we're all on the same page. :)

 

That's the crux of what I am trying to say, you frequently laud sub-optimal options because it may have some application in a corner-case scenario, or as you put it, "that extra something to do a little extra something". This is fine when you're talking enormous point levels, but at typical game sizes, even just 10 points can make a difference.

 

Even if you get an optimal target for those plasma pistols, the end result is merely "cute".  Your 40K experience should tell you that you need three of anything to accomplish anything, because the first one will die prematurely, the second will miss, and the third will get the job done.  You need concentration of fire to compensate for the vagaries of dice, and a pair of plasma pistols doesn't have weight of fire to make a significant impact (.66 dead kataphractii on average).  You may say, "it's only 30-points, and there's the off chance it might be useful".  I say, "it's most of a void harness, which will always be useful".  It's the enhanced targeting arrays for my Castellax.  It's the graviton guns for my Contemptor. 

 

There is also the issue of opportunity cost. If you took meltaguns instead, you could kill those terminators just as well, while also ignoring feel no pain.  You could crack open a transport and then assault the juicy center.  Or, since a scenario where you're "forced to deal with 2+ saves" is more likely to be a melee situation, those same points spent on power axes would serve you much better.  If we're talking about Sgts, a combi-plasma is again a better and cheaper option. If we're talking melee Sgt gear, 90% of the time it's a power fist that can't get an extra attack from the pistol anyway. In the specific case of Reavers, they can ALL have combi-weapons and they can ALL have power weapons. You could use them as a quasi-Seeker unit, that outflanks and puts out a whole bunch of precision plasma fire.  Then anyone wanting to assault them has to deal with banestrike overwatch (so all your hits will qualify as "cute"), and 3 attacks per guy.  Oh, and what do you know, taking a pair of combi-weapons over a pair of plasma pistols left just enough points over to also bring that power axe.

 

Now lets consider a unit that would actually get good mileage out of plasma pistols, the Suzerain. It's a unit that is designed to kill 2+ saves, they have no other ranged weapon options, and every single guy can take a plasma pistol. So that would be a bunch of S7 Ap2 shots that gives them an answer against vehicles and monstrous creatures, gives them a nasty overwatch, and their artificer armour makes overheats a mild concern (<3% chance of losing one). But just 5 dudes pay 75 points for that privilege, where those same 75 points could get you 3 more Suzerain, or the better part of a Dreadclaw to transport them.  At 10 points per pistol, I'd consider it for half the Suzerain (running 8 guys with 4 plasma pistols vs. 10 guys), but they would be the first thing to cut from the list if I needed the points elsewhere.  At 5 points per pistol, it'd be 10-man Suzerain with all the plasma all day long, because that is more than enough concentration of firepower.  For non-Suzerain options, at 10 points I'm still ignoring it most of the time (except maybe being tempted to build a sarge with two just to look cool).  At 5 points, it would be the default weapon option to give to my sgts that are artificer meatshields if I can't scrounge up another 5 for a combi-weapon, and it would still be a tough choice between it or melta-bombs.

 

I guess I'm just really miserly with my points.  I'll have to name my Harrowmaster Ebenezer.