[HH1.0] Sons of Horus Tactica

[Sanct]

I'm going to be a bit of a devil's advocate on this and say I would take a plasma pistol.  If it's my solo special weapon in the squad. If it's on a model I haven't otherwise tooled up for combat.  If it's not replacing another weapon shot.  If it isn't limiting or changing the role of a squad in some way.

 

Which means a plasma pistol on a chief with a hand flamer in a squad of 8 others with combi-weapons in a pod.  With a certain special character who makes them troops.  Or a different one who makes them BS 5 and is a compulsory option for making them troops.

 

 

P.S Have I said I like the hand flamer option as an extra weapon shot at that cost when combined with the plasma pistol?

[Marshal Loss]

Not a bad suggestion (and the idea of a gun slinging Chieftain is pretty badass), but the Chieftain could instead take a combi-plasma. If you're investing all those points into a combi-weapon drop pod unit, I think having that extra plasma shot is more important that a single shot combined with a weak flamer - so I'd rather the combi-plasma if you're building a Reaver unit that you don't want charging for some reason

[PastelAvenger]

Not a bad suggestion (and the idea of a gun slinging Chieftain is pretty badass), but the Chieftain could instead take a combi-plasma. If you're investing all those points into a combi-weapon drop pod unit, I think having that extra plasma shot is more important that a single shot combined with a weak flamer - so I'd rather the combi-plasma if you're building a Reaver unit that you don't want charging for some reason

And when you purchase a combi weapon you get Banestrike Ammo, Reavers have the cheapest combi weapons if you assume you're paying 5pets for Banestrike Ammo.

[GreyCrow]

 

The reality is that Reavers aren't a unit you ideally want charging anything with a 2+ save unless you can overwhelm a smaller unit with huge numbers of attacks in an opportunistic charge or an assault combined with other similar units. Factor that into your army list and make plans for when you encounter 2+ saves accordingly.

 

I said in my previous post, second to last sentence "in the off chance the unit is forced to deal with 2+ saves (and that means that it's been outplayed by quite a significant margin), then it has that extra something to do a little extra something."

I should have probably clarified my point, when I said it's been outplayed I'm referring to the Reaver unit, not the 2+ unit.

 

@Terminus : Harrowmaster Ebenezer, hehe :D

 

Yeah, I knew we would see eye to eye when it comes to 2 weapons not defining the role of the unit, I was mostly directing my logic to Hesh who seemed outraged when I said so :P

To be fair, I never lauded the Plasma Pistols ;) If you look at my posts I literally said multiple "they are not a bad upgrade", not "PRAISE THE EMPRAH/KHORNE FOR PLASMA PISTOLS". When you compare Power Axes vs Plasma Pistols, no doubt that Power Axes will kill more stuff. I guess where we differ in terms of doctrines here is that I don't want to charge units with Power Weapons that can cut through my own units, just to get Power Axes hits off, when I don't have an invulnerable save. But that's just me here.

 

No arguments against your Power Weapons or Combi-weapons points. It's a good option to base the role of a unit on because they can all have it.

 

Not particularily sold with the Banestrike Overwatch unless it's with combi-bolters (so AL Terminators being most optimal because they can charge). The twin-linking really helps in overwatch.

 

For your points about the Suzerains, you are totally right, especially due to the fact that they already have AP2 and I4 built-in. Plasma pistols for the full squad is too much of an investment (and might actually be detrimental due to the high opportunity that they'll miss the charge against the target they want to kill !).

 

_____

 

When reading your comment on points, I realized that I properly didn't explain well the list building techniques I use because I rarely find myself short on points, which is why my comments usually advocate spending enough points in gear for specific units.

 

Like you probably said : boys over toys because you need table presence, but when I give toys to the units I give them the best. So, I tend to be very conservative on gear for my tacticals and quite generous elsewhere.

Line troops (the cheapest variant of Troops armed with a boltgun or BP+CCW, including the cost of the mandatory HQ, and Veterans in the case of POTL, support squads can be considered both ends) comprise 50% ish of the points total and support units (anything else basically) comprise the rest. Support units are extremely specialized and well geared for their intended job.

 

The last game I clocked at 2000 points was with a very simple list with the Ultramarines (using a friend's beautifully painted models), following that logic :

- 3 * 10 Tacticals with Vexilla, Artificer and Power Sword, in Rhinos with dozer blades (had to drop 1 dozer blade to fit the list)

- 5 Support with Plasma in a Rhino (counted that squad as part of my 50% Line units thumb rule for this game)

- Chaplain with Refractor field

- 9 Suzerains with a Land Raider with AC

- 3 Executionners/Lascannon Predators in 3 different squads

 

Definitely not the most innovative list out there, using proven units. But I spared no expense for the Suzerains and the Executionners (the upgrades on the Predators double the cost of the model !). And that's because I kept the line troops at a minimum expense (220 points per tactical squad, 215 points for the support squad). But, each of the unit's role was clearly defined : Tacticals + support squad for the battle line and board presence, artillery for the Predators, tactical reserve (as in second line) for the Suzerains + Chaplain to wait for a break to open up and go in.

For a slower list, I would have had no issue going for 10 Fulmentarus on foot with Power Fists and Cylone (750 points for the unit) with 3 Predators with AC/HB, but I'm a sucker for melee which is why I'm thoroughly interested with the Sons of Horus :p

[depthcharge12]

Lol it was just a thought at taking a plasma pistol - complete wishful thinking :D I honestly wish they could take plasma blasters as they'd be infinitely useful. But, like most people say, Reavers are there to bully around marine squads.

 

But that does make me wonder since quite a few of you guys seem to be crunch over fluff, why not just take a Scorpii or two for anti marine fire power instead of dropping 300+ points to make a reaver squad useful?

 

I honestly think that you'll never need more than 1 squad of Reavers because most people don't play marine spam lists and are gravitating towards taking more tanks/dreads. It's also why I don't think Justaerin should not be considered (though hopefully your opponent allows you to take a 70 point handicap) as useful - honestly they make some of the most useful AT troops out there with a multi melta and S9 chainfist attacks. Use them to deep strike in with orbital assault and blow up a Spartan or what have you, and then have that squad that came in first turn assault the occupants, and mop up the rest next turn with the Men in Black.

 

I honestly feel that I can only armchair general so much since my experience is limited to running 1st legion (without much in the way of special rules I may add), but I hope to add more once I start up my SoH.

[GreyCrow]

Lol it was just a thought at taking a plasma pistol - complete wishful thinking I honestly wish they could take plasma blasters as they'd be infinitely useful. But, like most people say, Reavers are there to bully around marine squads.

 

But that does make me wonder since quite a few of you guys seem to be crunch over fluff, why not just take a Scorpii or two for anti marine fire power instead of dropping 300+ points to make a reaver squad useful?

 

I honestly think that you'll never need more than 1 squad of Reavers because most people don't play marine spam lists and are gravitating towards taking more tanks/dreads. It's also why I don't think Justaerin should not be considered (though hopefully your opponent allows you to take a 70 point handicap) as useful - honestly they make some of the most useful AT troops out there with a multi melta and S9 chainfist attacks. Use them to deep strike in with orbital assault and blow up a Spartan or what have you, and then have that squad that came in first turn assault the occupants, and mop up the rest next turn with the Men in Black.

 

I honestly feel that I can only armchair general so much since my experience is limited to running 1st legion (without much in the way of special rules I may add), but I hope to add more once I start up my SoH.

 

Because you don't look at a unit simply in terms of what it kills, but also what it brings to board control :)

 

Especially when fighting for the middle of the table and pushing towards your opponent's DZ, the number of models is very important. On their own, Reavers can be a MEQ killer unit when geared with Power Swords, but they mainly work similarily to Veterans as in an Elite Tactical/Assault squad. When you want to fight for an area, you send men, not Whirlwinds :D On the charge, Reavers can push up to 60 attacks including Volkite Chargers out of a Dreadclaw, and their loadout (either a pod or jump packs) allow you to position them where you need on the battleline to provide a local edge there.

 

With board control, you're looking for both the number of bodies and capability in melee, and Reavers do well in both respects. Board control is often looked upon with disgust because it's not as exhilirating as killing stuff. But most Warhammer games I've played were won in the movement phase rather than any other phase (because position is what determines the effectiveness of every other phase for both you and your opponent).

Having a flimsy battle line, but with very killy units can work, but that means giving up board control to your opponent and forcing you to react to his moves rather than the opposite. And while your killy units will kill, they will also die, causing you to lose models as well as the ability to capture objectives, which usually means the ability for the opponent to wrench back the control of the game towards later turns.

[Marshal Loss]

Remember that Reavers are almost always going to be used as a troops choice due to either Maloghurst or the Black Reaving, so you're investing points into a unit that fulfills an obligatory troops slot in addition to being a prolific slaughterer of the Warmaster's enemies. I use 2-3 squads of Reavers in every list I take - either in Dreadclaws or with Jump Packs, and they rarely let me down. If you were taking Reavers in addition to troops with infantry removal being their mission, then maybe something like a Scorpius could be a good choice. View the points you're spending on troops Reavers as a tax over the normal Tactical units in exchange for vastly increased close combat ability.

 

Also, it's worth noting that if you play against non-Marine armies (GEQ, Mechanicum etc) then Reavers are actually superb. Cheap access to chain axes mean they slaughter 4+ save units insanely quickly, which has flat out won me games on its own against certain Thrall/Auxilia spam lists.

 

But yeah, get some games under your belt. Everybody has a different meta - mine is a bizarre mix of super competitive and super casual players, which can be a bit strange at times, (getting smashed when I first started by a Night Lord TA list then coming up against an all infantry IFarmy with virtually no AV and no anti flyer for my Dreadclaws the next...) while others here have far more competitive environments.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Why do people automatically assume I'm angry? Honestly its more astonishmemt than anythimg else.

[Slips]

Why do people automatically assume I'm angry? Honestly its more astonishmemt than anythimg else.

Its an odd combo of the internet not transmitting tone and possible wording / word selection.

[depthcharge12]

 

Why do people automatically assume I'm angry? Honestly its more astonishmemt than anythimg else.

Its an odd combo of the internet not transmitting tone and possible wording / word selection.

*Macbeth witch voice*

 

"Your lack of emojis will be your undoing..."

 

*fades back into Scottish mist*

[Slips]

Yes, oddly enough due to the nature of emojis they certainly do help transmit tone a bit more clearly as much as some may abhor them. The only places I ever use smiley/emojis is in Games / Forums for that specific reason

 

Simple ;) can go a long way in helping transmit a more upbeat tone in the same way :/ or >:/ can for slight dissatisfaction and the like.

 

 

+++

 

But enough about that, the Sons of Horus is what this is all about!

Edited January 5, 2016 by Slipstreams

[depthcharge12]

I'm genuinely curious about what the frater think about the possible new rules we've heard about:

 

1.) Mastercrafted weapons first turn as a RoW/trait on the path to Terra due to being well equipped [mentioned last event I believe]. Idk if that means LA only or vehicles and dreads too.

 

2.) Bonuses to close ranged weaponry/Merciless Fighters.

 

3.) Reworking of Justaerin to reflect their points cost. Idk or haven't heard anything about Reavers though - likely not to be changed.

 

4.) Possible Horus buff? Not confirmed anywhere, but likely now that Molech has happened.

[Flint13]

^ That is a good point. 

 

The whole daemon juiced primarch thing was a pretty big debate when Betrayal first came out. I wonder what FW is going to do with it now that the whole Moloch deal actually kicked that snowball downhill. 

[Terminus]

Lol it was just a thought at taking a plasma pistol - complete wishful thinking I honestly wish they could take plasma blasters as they'd be infinitely useful. But, like most people say, Reavers are there to bully around marine squads.

 

But that does make me wonder since quite a few of you guys seem to be crunch over fluff, why not just take a Scorpii or two for anti marine fire power instead of dropping 300+ points to make a reaver squad useful?

 

I honestly think that you'll never need more than 1 squad of Reavers because most people don't play marine spam lists and are gravitating towards taking more tanks/dreads. It's also why I don't think Justaerin should not be considered (though hopefully your opponent allows you to take a 70 point handicap) as useful - honestly they make some of the most useful AT troops out there with a multi melta and S9 chainfist attacks. Use them to deep strike in with orbital assault and blow up a Spartan or what have you, and then have that squad that came in first turn assault the occupants, and mop up the rest next turn with the Men in Black.

 

I honestly feel that I can only armchair general so much since my experience is limited to running 1st legion (without much in the way of special rules I may add), but I hope to add more once I start up my SoH.

Regarding plasma pistols, yes, it would be nice if they were just a 5 point option so Dark Angels players can overdose on them. I saw a list recently for the First Legion that did it anyway, and put one on every sgt and character that could take one, it was something like 200 points in plasma pistols for a 2000 point list. Madness.

 

As for Scorpius, 30K list building should be start with compulsory options, then splurge on heavy support, and then start looking at everything else.  Of course, there are exceptions like pod lists and the like, but the most killpower per point is easily found in the HS section.

 

No, you probably won't need more than 1 unit of Reavers, although when they are troop choices, it's worthwhile to consider the extra points invested over regular tacticals to make them more capable. I think 2 units wouldn't be excessive. Although you'll always have to live with the knowledge that Alpha Legion can do it better, since our Reavers can have counter charge or tank hunter with AP1 plasma guns.

 

All your base are belong to us!

 

 

 

Why do people automatically assume I'm angry? Honestly its more astonishmemt than anythimg else.

As someone who gets the same charge levied against me quite frequently, matter-of-fact statements tinged with incredulity come across as very abrasive even in person, much less via typed word. Hence gratuitous emojis.  Also, you're a contract lawyer (or something similar), and always seem to be a bit high-strung. Cocaine is so 80s, man, let it go!

Edited January 5, 2016 by Terminus

[Marshal Loss]

I'm genuinely curious about what the frater think about the possible new rules we've heard about:

 

1.) Mastercrafted weapons first turn as a RoW/trait on the path to Terra due to being well equipped [mentioned last event I believe]. Idk if that means LA only or vehicles and dreads too.

 

2.) Bonuses to close ranged weaponry/Merciless Fighters.

 

3.) Reworking of Justaerin to reflect their points cost. Idk or haven't heard anything about Reavers though - likely not to be changed.

 

4.) Possible Horus buff? Not confirmed anywhere, but likely now that Molech has happened.

 

 

There isn't much point guessing when we don't actually know the changes yet...

 

1. We don't know the rest of the bonuses/drawbacks or how it works yet, but it makes deep striking special weapons squads in drop pods quite attractive

 

2. We don't know the bonuses yet. If it changes the outnumbering mechanic, it could make jump pack Reavers less attractive though

 

3. Reavers won't get changed and we don't know the changes to Justaerin yet, but it's safe to assume that Justaerin will still be intended to be a frontline Terminator unit

 

4. No. FW aren't up to Molech yet, Horus is not getting changed.

 

I think we should just wait, only a month to go dude lol

[Hesh Kadesh]

Wait, Molech's happened? Is that confirmed?

[depthcharge12]

Wait, Molech's happened? Is that confirmed?

I think so, I think in Conquest they were heading there, but don't quote me on it. But at the rate we're going (damn you Calth part 2!!!), it could be in another 5 years to my chagrin.

[Marshal Loss]

In Conquest, it mentions where they are going next after the events in the book - after Manachea to Dwell (Little Horus, start of Vengeful Spirit) and then Molech (Vengeful Spirit). They haven't actually happened yet in the FW timeline, but it's written as a history with the benefit of hindsight so we know when they take place. I spoke to Alan Bligh, asking about the Luperci in July and October, and he said that such a pivotal part of Horus' progression would be covered. So expect Molech to feature in a future book, with Luperci (Twin Flames/Brothers of the Wolf/Possessed) and God-Horus featuring.

 

They aren't going to suddenly give Horus super powers in the new red book. A good few years to go before we see that.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Marshal Loss

[PastelAvenger]

I'm kinda hoping the new RoW gives the unit Master Created on the turn they enter play as it will be useless for many units that are held in reserve and let's face it isn't that big of a buff.

 

From my understanding Merciless Fighters bonus is going to change not the prerequisites to it. So Jump Pack troops will still be king. I would really like to see some sort of Initiative bonus for out numbering.

 

Still want to see 2W strike at Initiative Justaerin all it would take is to give them a new weapon "Justaerin War Axe" bingo done, fixed probably 60% of what's wrong with them just there.

[GreyCrow]

I'm kinda hoping the new RoW gives the unit Master Created on the turn they enter play as it will be useless for many units that are held in reserve and let's face it isn't that big of a buff.

 

From my understanding Merciless Fighters bonus is going to change not the prerequisites to it. So Jump Pack troops will still be king. I would really like to see some sort of Initiative bonus for out numbering.

 

Still want to see 2W strike at Initiative Justaerin all it would take is to give them a new weapon "Justaerin War Axe" bingo done, fixed probably 60% of what's wrong with them just there.

 

Massacre mentions the axe of the Justaerin as being Master Crafted, that would be a big bonus (statistically, you'll hit most guys on 3+ with 3 attacks, so 2 hits. With Master Crafted you'll almost ensure hitting with all).

I fear that 2W and hitting at I would really step on the toes of the Salamanders and Ultramarines, and I'm not sure they're ready to do that :p

Edited January 6, 2016 by GreyCrow

[depthcharge12]

Lol I wouldn't be worried about outdoing either of them. One has 2W plus 3++ and the other has at I ap2 plus defensive grenades.

[PastelAvenger]

If we look at newer elite units my proposal isn't that far fetched, considering the draw backs they have as well with slow and purposeful.

[Marshal Loss]

Let's keep the tactica for for what we have, rather than what we could theoretically get. Only a month or so to wait until information comes out in all likelihood folks.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Marshal Loss

[PastelAvenger]

I'm still going to run some Justaerin soon but how you would you equip them? 2 will dual claws and 3 with Power Fists? They will be going after other elite stuff and acting like am anvil unit really

[Marshal Loss]

What are you transporting them in, a Dreadclaw? I'd probably go 1/2 dual claws, rest with fists or chain fists with combi-meltas so you can disassemble vehicles should the situation require it. 4 in a Dreadclaw with axes and a Forge Lord with Rad Grenades are an alternative, meaning that you're doing S6 attacks on the charge against T3, ID'ing anyone with 2 wounds - I ran that in some casual games against a Deathshroud heavy list with amusing results

Edited January 7, 2016 by Marshal Loss