[HH1.0] Sons of Horus Tactica

Marshal Loss · January 29, 2016

Your 3k list simply looks like every other list you've ever made on here (Phase Walking Praetor + Vets + Quad Mortars etc) with the addition of a Warhound

norngahl · January 29, 2016

Now I got it. Mixed 40k grav up with 30k grav.

And yes my lists are usually based around the most effective stuff which works best in my area. Nice that you remember my lists, but I guess everyone got a core that fits their style of play which he usually takes when it comes down to brutal force.

Propably it's not for everyone, especially not for fluffbunnys. Still, as I mentioned before, you could field black reaving with the basics of the lists as well.

Quadmortars are the most broken unit in 30k IMO. I'd still take them if they'd cost 90 points. Sunder is far too awesome not to take.

Marshal Loss · January 29, 2016

No need to get defensive mon ami, was simply a comment on the many similarities between your lists, not a personal insult. It isn't hard to remember when it's literally all you post here

In any case, a 3k list with a Warhound is always going to be strong

Hesh Kadesh · January 30, 2016

Being fair to Noigrim, I too run some variation of the same; 6x Grav Cannons, 2x Dreads in Pods with twin Grav and a Deredeo, plus a Typhon usually being my go to since their release, with a few variants dotted about (Medusa instead of a deredeo when relevant, such as DecapStrike or TerrAssault). Even knights became less popular in my local meta when they started getting bullied off the table turn one and two causing 3 Knights to die.

It took me to force myself to not run a play style where I could fall back on my grav crutch with an AL Orbital Assault list effectivrly barring me from fielding grav after a brief flirtation with infiltrating/scouting grav breachers. And even despite all that, I have 3 Dreadnoughts running duak Grav+Chainfist in that list, instead using Combimelta Terminators and a pair of melta support squads in pods. Might swap one to a Leviathan as we've locally agreed to the inclusion of them as Haywire weapons, with additional chance of damage after rolling 3d6 to pen rather than a flat 2HP for simply landing on target with a 5" blast BS5 weapon.

Edit; Norngahl - Sunder is a rule that is purely derivative of the Shatter Shells that is only accessible via fluff to the Achilles-Alpha. The only reason that the Shatter Shells are available to a legion list is because of a crap copypaste job, putting the Achilles Alpha profile from Book 2 into the generic profile to the legion artillery. Whether the author intentioned that, is unknown, but given that Book 2 made no mention of their introduction all around, and instead made mention of the special snowflake achillesalpha getting access to a specially made maingun, which was also copied into Red Book, the evidence stacks up in reverse and comes across more as an attempt to game benefit from a typo.

If you and your meta are happy to continue that, (after all, it is 'RAW', but I don't really have to go into how stupid 'RAW' is again, do I?) Then that is fine. But after all, you are calling them broken and overpowered. At the very least I would be challenging that interpretation, and if worst came to worst, rolling a 4+ if it was a gameism. I have sent an email with all my rules clairifications and requests, but FW customer service are failing to service their customer, yet so i'm hoping that someone can address these points to the designn team in person come to the weekender.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Hesh Kadesh

norngahl · January 30, 2016

@Hesh

Might have been a thing, but since the 40k pdf for quadmortars came out as the latest document, we see that sunder on the quadmortars was fully intended ;)

@marshall

Might get more interesting in terms of list variation once I pick up my dark mechanicum in autum.. my enviroment is rather powergaming play with little to laugh about (I still enjoy it, we are swearing like crips and bloods about every 1/12 inch but still remain friends) so therefore the rather harsh lists. Funny lists are impossible to play if you don't want to get tabled turn 1. Especially against the 40k guys.

Quadmortars are ace, veterans are a great choice due to beeing able to take meltabombs and vexilla or even fearless before the game if needed. No reaver squad can make this up and I feel they only work if you run them simple with chainaxes against 4+ or spend an ungodly amout of points into a glascannon with low moral reliability..

Ever tried the phase walker? With move through cover warlord trait he is totally hillarious and eats heavy weapon squads, tactical squads or even special weapon squads on his own. The simple ability to interrupt havoc fire is aweseome, even if it takes some time to take them down. He can be placed out of LOS to his pray, move next turn into LOS of only a few models, eat their overwatch and then munch the whole squad. He can support in backfield as a counter to small units or support locallx whereever needed. Teleportation is a totally impressive tactical advantage, to shove your force this easy and to be able to react that easy on enemy actions is more difficult to deal with than one who did not try this relic could imagine.

Hesh Kadesh · January 30, 2016

40k =/= 30k. That's about the weakest possible defence for it. Look at the differences between all the 30K and 40k vehicles. The Achilles gets a Thunderfire. Plus, the 40k version still causes Pinning checks at -1, but no possible way to cause pinning. Go figure.

Marshal Loss · January 30, 2016

Phase Walker is no longer an official part of the army list, and is intended for campaigns only, as per the FAQ. It's not legal - you may allow one relic in your '40k/30k' group but that is not FW's intention for standard play.

That all sounds well and good, until somebody drops a S8 blast on his head and kills your Warlord because he's off running around on his own. It's not a trick that's going to work against an opponent that plays against you regularly enough to know the strategy, or any army that simply doesn't have those stationary backline units. If there aren't units like heavy support squads far up the back, then the Phase Walker has been a waste of points. He can't even charge after teleporting, and you can't guarantee he'll get MTC. Most midfield units are going to have transports, stopping him from threatening their contents. And at the end of the day, a Praetor isn't intimidating enough to work against every army solo.

A beatstick Warlord is one thing; a beaststick Warlord going solo is entirely another. To me he would represent free VP's. Not to mention the fact you only have 2x Veteran Squads in a POTL list; more free VP's. I'd much rather use Maloghurst.

If it works in your meta all the power to you, but I'm sure you can understand why I do not value this particular suggestion

EDIT: Incoming repeating of the only points you ever make

Edited January 30, 2016 by Marshal Loss

PastelAvenger · January 30, 2016

@Norngahl to be honest looking at your list it doesn't look too tough you are relying on the Warhound too much.

I do actually run a 9 man Reaver combi-melta team with Master of Signal in a Dreadclaw teamed with a Falchion it's not going to last long at all.the main problem with a Warhound is the size you're not going to be able to hide it anywhere if it starts taking a beating.

Then your list losses alot of its punch then.

norngahl · January 30, 2016

Must defend the phase walker praetor.

Here we use 1-2 ruins per 24x24. Most times 3 floors ruins, some have more. Some are even entirely closed, LOS blocking but not impassible. Drop a floor above or beyond the target, use walls to block LOS to plates, heck use floors that the enemy can't put down a plate as he'd hit his own models. Turn 1 teleport, turn 2 move out of cover and assault.

Yes, there are armies that have no classic backfield units. In this case, let him support and join a veteran squad. Even if it is a 3rd turn charge, who cares.

When we talk about reaver squad with combimeltas in dreadclaw with master of signal attached.. we talk about At least 480 points, rather 520.. who hurt a reaver, but can't kill it alone.. once the combimeltas are gone, you have an easy prey for a warhound as they can't even wound it. The synergy is missing IMO. You are paying 90 for combimeltas, which you can use once.. I pay 25 points for Meltabombs which I can use every round. The dreadclaw is so expensive because it is an assault vehicle.. but you go out, shoot your load.. and paid a heckload of points to be allowed to assault but you don't. When you deepstrike you can't but can shoot, next turn you can but after your shooting you can not kill him with your kraks.. and can assault no different unit. Dreadclaw wasted.. I know it's an allcomers unit and it's not bad.. but I feel veterans are better. Meltabombs. Tank hunters. Fearless. Vexillas. Same points. Might be a thing if you chose to play reaving or mal of course, but I don't consider them better than POTL anyway.

where are you guys living? How about a game :D

Marshal Loss · January 30, 2016

Let me know if you are ever in Australia, because I would love to. No graviton, POTL and a Praetor going team solo - sounds like a fun time to me! ;)

PastelAvenger · January 30, 2016

Manchester but will travel Edited January 30, 2016 by PastelAvenger

norngahl · January 30, 2016

Understand your point of reavers, but unless you sink at least 3 pw into them, they will not do much against 3+ though.

Fair point about the warhounds, mainly run into glaives, falchions and typhons where you can hardly beat Meltabombs. But if i remember correctly, only warlords get hit on 6 and warhounds as normal. If not, you are right, then a few regular meltas wouldn't hurt.

Nontheless, when facing an alpha strike unit like this, it's no shame to reserve even a warhound to get into hunter position. Just a thought, but an interceptor unit nearby still counters them ;) as does terrain cause the fact that dreadclaws have no guidance doesn't help them getting the 6" bonus for sure.

It is a multi purpose unit. Point. If things go very well in your favour you can down the warhound, but there is scatter, to hit and to penetrate without tank hunter. Surely you will have decent anti tank in your list on top through.

just wondering how you strip hp from sh that easy, everyone and his mother takes ceramite, doesn't he?!

If it was down to me with a regular list, I'd drop a dread close, then down the shields with its grav or quadmortars, afterwards kraken penetrator missiles and going for the last remaining hullpoints with the dread in CC. Might take longer as a reaver suicide though but is pretty safe. If reavers scatter or got a mishap so you can't claim the melta usr, or when someone fails to hit or penetrate, you have pretty much as much as a regular round per round counter but in opposite 500+ points lost in return.

There are pros and cons. But somehow I like the idea and would lile to.give it a try. Is it a unit you field on 3k or is it something you field below? Nice deathstar and sh counter but fragile as hell and pretty darn expensive. How does the rest of the list look? 2k, 2,5k, 3k? Would really like to see a full list in return! :)

Terminus · January 30, 2016

Even with specific units designed to take it out present on the table, a Warhound is still incredibly underpriced for its ability, and unless the game scenario specifically calls it out or its a no-holds bar tournament game, it is a rude move regardless.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Flint13
keep it classy

Slips · January 31, 2016

I Strongly and Firmly suggest we clear the air here and get back to posting in a positive, helpful, friendly and RESPECTFUL manner.

We can do without any passive aggressive retorts, bravado, attitude and/or personal attacks as well as any combination thereof.

If you can't post a reply without it having some unnecessary bite, snark or other such nonsense, then I suggest you refrain from posting at all and come back after you've taken a breather and cleared up your head space.

You're all free to disagree on certain points but you'll do it in the manner described in the first sentence with a strong emphasis on Respect.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Slipstreams

PastelAvenger · January 31, 2016

Would you honestly look at reserving a third of your army to avoid an alpha strike? You run the risk of it not being on the board until turn 3 then.

norngahl · January 31, 2016

Sure, I have most of my army in reserve anyway. The only things on the board would be 3x Quadmortar and 2x Support Squads and if I want to I can hide the Praetor unseen in a ruin and the Sicaran behind them. The support squads might be out of LOS as well so that the enemy might only focus the quadmortars or the sicaran if he has a suicide melta squad in pod. If I see an alpha strike unit with meltas in pod which could insta gib my warhound, why bother putting him on the plate? A round of shooting and getting killed in return is worse than 1-2 lost turns of shooting but 4 turns following. I highly enjoy playing reserve armies. The alpha strike/hunter position is more valuable to me than loosing some units due to being outnumbered. Pro is, with a small elite force that is highly mobile (except mortars and support squads), I will roll up flanks pretty good at usual or focus on ripping out the key targets which threat me most.

I'm pretty bad at playing static armies. I have no feeling for that to be honest. Big Blobs, slow armies.. not mine. Mobility and elite is what suits me best. If it wasn't for objectives, I wouldn't even play the support squads.. and the quadmortars are only in because they are too good to be left out. Maybe a thing from old fantasy, where more often than not it was mobility and movement which won you games.

I know a reserve army has it's weakness if you roll bad for reserves, but hey, that's life. Still better than putting anything down on the plate IMO. The abilitiy to react and adapt on the enemy is golden IMHO. If the dice gods are against me, hell, I'll take it like a man and loose a game.

Nontheless, I'd really like to see some of your (all of you) lists. Show me how you'd do an ace sons of horus list. 2k, 2,5k, 3k. You let me know what you think about my lists, now let me have my turn :rolleyes:

PastelAvenger · January 31, 2016

List #1

+++ Sons of Horus with Fire Raptor (2995pts) +++

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

+ HQ +

Legion Centurion [Chainfist, Combi-Weapon, Cyber-familiar, Rad Grenades, Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon]
····Consul [Forge Lord]

Legion Centurion [Power Armour]
····Consul [Master of Signal]

Legion Praetor [Artificer Armour, Digital Lasers, Iron Halo, Jump Pack, Paragon Blade]
····Master of the Legion [The Black Reaving]

+ Troops +

Legion Tactical Squad [14x Legion Tactical Space Marines]
····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

Legion Tactical Squad [14x Legion Tactical Space Marines]
····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

Reaver Attack Squad [Artificer Armour, Jump Packs, 2x Power Fist, 2x Power Weapon, 9x Reavers]

+ Elites +

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon
····Legion Contemptor Dreadnought [Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, 2x Graviton Gun, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod]

Justaerin Terminator Squad [Chainfist, 4x Combi-Weapon, 4x Justaerin Terminators]

Legion Rapier Weapons Battery
····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]
····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]
····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

+ Fast Attack +

Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod

Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron [Melta Bombs, 3x Space Marine Sky Hunters]

+ Heavy Support +

Legion Fire Raptor Gunship [Reaper Autocannon battery]

+ Legion +

Legion Astartes [XVI: Sons of Horus]

+ Lord of War +

Legion Falchion Super-heavy Tank Destroyer [Armoured Ceramite, Space Marine Legion Crew]

List #2

+++ Sons of Horus w/o Fire Raptor (2995pts) +++

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

+ HQ +

Legion Centurion [Chainfist, Combi-Weapon, Cyber-familiar, Rad Grenades, Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon]
····Consul [Forge Lord]

Legion Centurion [Power Armour, Refractor Field]
····Consul [Master of Signal]

Legion Praetor [Artificer Armour, Digital Lasers, Iron Halo, Jump Pack, Paragon Blade]
····Master of the Legion [The Black Reaving]

+ Troops +

Legion Tactical Squad [14x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade]
····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

Legion Tactical Squad [14x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade]
····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

Reaver Attack Squad [Artificer Armour, Jump Packs, 2x Power Fist, 2x Power Weapon, 9x Reavers]

+ Elites +

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon
····Legion Contemptor Dreadnought [Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, 2x Graviton Gun, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod]

Justaerin Terminator Squad [Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod, Chainfist, 4x Combi-Weapon, 4x Justaerin Terminators]

Legion Rapier Weapons Battery
····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]
····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]
····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

+ Fast Attack +

Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron [Melta Bombs, 2x Multi-Melta, 6x Space Marine Sky Hunters]

+ Legion +

Legion Astartes [XVI: Sons of Horus]

+ Lord of War +

Legion Falchion Super-heavy Tank Destroyer [Armoured Ceramite, Space Marine Legion

List #3

+++ Sons of Horus 3000 Orbital Assault (3000pts) +++
++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

+ HQ +

Legion Praetor [Artificer Armour, Digital Lasers, Iron Halo, Paragon Blade]
····Master of the Legion [Orbital Assault]

Legion Centurion [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, Combi-Weapon, Cyber-familiar, Rad Grenades]
····Consul [Forge Lord]

Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Boarding Shield, Power Weapon]
····Consul [Primus Medicae]

+ Troops +

Legion Tactical Squad [Legion Drop Pod, 9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade]
····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

Legion Tactical Squad [Legion Drop Pod, 9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade]
····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

Legion Tactical Squad [Legion Drop Pod, 9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade]
····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

+ Elites +

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon
····Legion Contemptor Dreadnought [Chainfist with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, 2x Graviton Gun, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod]

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon
····Legion Contemptor Dreadnought [Chainfist with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, 2x Graviton Gun, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod]

Justaerin Terminator Squad [Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod, Chainfist, 4x Combi-Weapon, 4x Justaerin Terminators]

+ Fast Attack +

Reaver Attack Squad [Artificer Armour, 2x Power Fist, 2x Power Weapon, 12x Reavers]

Reaver Attack Squad [10x Combi-weapon with Banestrike Shells, Legion Drop Pod, 9x Reavers]

+ Heavy Support +

Legion Kharybdis Assault Claw

+ Legion +

Legion Astartes [XVI: Sons of Horus]

Just 3 of my 3k lists, I know I've mentioned combi Reavers they replace the Justaerin and Forge Lord.

I don't run a 2k list ever so I can't tell you that.

At 2.5kpts they are pretty much the same I just drop a unit that's duplicated

Edited January 31, 2016 by Slipstreams
Added in spoiler tags to help with Reading ^_^

Slips · January 31, 2016

Spoiler tags to help separate the lists please hahahah!

PastelAvenger · January 31, 2016

Sorry buddy I don't know how to do that on the mobile site most of my posting is on my phone

Slips · January 31, 2016

For future reference its

Without the period in the tag below.

[./spoiler]

A bit tricky with Mobile keyboards but doable. I'll get on it...this time :tongue.:

Edited January 31, 2016 by Slipstreams

PastelAvenger · January 31, 2016

Thank you slips

norngahl · February 1, 2016

Okay, thanks for posting some lists!

If you gave these lists to me and would ask me how I'd change them to better fit my personal meta and needs I'd do this:

I see what you are going for with the justaerin and the rad techmarine, but I feel you are equally good with regular nators and fists. Insta gib, a threat to vehicles if you put in a chainfist or two and much cheaper as well. Sure, not as optically awesome as the justaerin. But way cheaper.

The tacticals have no vexillas. Powerfist and aa.. 15 marines.. I'd rather go 10 naked with vex in rhino for pure objective holders. And still this is too expensive for me. You are effectiveky playing with 500 points less as their puny bolters add up pretty much next to nothing..

Reavers with praetor.. expensive overkill unit. A fist less would be good to save some points. You are killing any 3+ unit with ease, but you are totally vulnerable with this glascannon. Either add up some bodies from the saved points or consider swapping the jump packs plus some points against a second claw?

Not sure about the SH. Pretty rxpensive just for the D.. maybe multiple small units will do it's job better. Think about sub orbital strike wing, great for double primaris with krakens. There is only 1 SH and I never saw a list with 3 spartans and a SH ;)

The orbital assault list is pretty meh IMO. The legion drop pods force people to get out now is a real loss. Tacticals in pods are pretty garbish. Dead points. Some nice elements in here, but overall no hard list.

If you consider these lists great lists, we seem to either have totally different metas, a totally different playstyle or a different view on the game overall (conp vs fluff). :D

But thanks for sharing! Guess I will bring the reaver squad with MoS in big battles as titan ir other non AC SH defense :)

Mashal, Hesh, would also like to see something from you! :)