Terminus Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) At least the justaerin deserved it more than any other terminator unit.. SoH now really favour reavers and justaerin. Both have pistol or assault weapons through combis and are really deadly in CC. Boots over mech in case of SoH for now. Looking on my regular list, I will propably just take a fire raptor and a contemptor as my only mech units, maybe a primaris on top plus pods or dreadclaws.. O.o Tbh orbital assault is now quite a thing hum. Honestly, it's not only Reavers (who are now a super seeker/veteran blend) and Justaerin (best terminators), regular sniper Veterans or plasma Legion Terminators are now effectively better than any other Legion's. I guess now there is no doubt as to who was "the best". Right on the sweep, but sadly not on charge. Crusader lets you roll another die and pick highest when running, and adds D3 to sweeps. Darn, but you can add that Traitor Heraldor for the extra run distance and rerolls of 1's in combat! World Eaters, Night Lords, and especially Emperor's Children can stack far more melee buffs on top of a Herald. Seeking that merciless fighter extra attack may be a trap that has you over-investing in units. The Sons really seem to work best now working towards a <12" firefight. Edited February 11, 2016 by Terminus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Dude Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I dont get all the hype. Sure there are some fine buffs for the SoH but the imperial fisters are still the top legion (regarding the rules). They can just spam 20-man-tac-blobs and before u come into your precious 12" u dont have the critical mass anymore to do real damage. Its a similar situation for the justaerian. 2 wounds is nice as well as stubborn and furious charge, but they still have t4 and a 4+ invuln. One hit with a hammer and they are gone. Plus fister termis can have a 3+ invuln. I feel like that the SoH got buffs, that u cant really ultilize unless ur opponent brings a stupid list, that allows u to bring more than 500 points in reserve or allows you to run across the board without gettin obliterated. Or did I miss something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 In what universe are giant slow tactical blobs scary? There is so much weaponry that just removes them from the equation. Deepstriking with a bunch of BS5(or 6) meltaguns and plasmaguns is going to make for a brutal alpha strike, and any close-range firefights are in the Sons' favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) Imperial fists top legion in rules http://45.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4tpqkKlwq1qc49r2o1_500.gif Memes aside, Terminus pretty much covered it. Edited February 12, 2016 by Hesh Kadesh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) First and Foremost, 20 Man Tac Blobs, as nice as they are for flavor, aren't really that effective. Why? Because Bolters are still just Bolters. BS5 Counts for nothing if you cant hurt it unlike these guys who can take Combi-Weapons and unload with bonuses for much more damage. You might say "Fury Of the Legion" But I've had an Artificer Tac Sarge with an Apothecary in the Squad tank 40 something Wounds on his own and only lost 1 Marine who was standing in front of him. FOTL has good visual impact with all the dice being rolled but is still easily mitigated. BS5 Plasma Shots, on the other hand, aren't. Another thing SoH do really well, alongside Alpha Legion and Raven Guard, is Reserves Manipulation. Put 5 Justaerin w/ Combi-Weapons in a Dreadclaw and they'll drop in immune to bolter fire and will only ever get shot by bolters in Overwatch when they charge after they've nuked said unit. As an Imperial Fist I also much prefer 10 Man 2x Heavy Bolter Sniper Vets to 20 Man Tac blobs since they can actually deal damage and have a wider threat range. They can also fit into a cheap rhino to make them immune to bolters too and have a smaller footprint that isnt as prone to catching Pie Plates. What a 20 Man Tac Blob will do is eat each-and-every-single pieplate your opponent has. But, guess what, the majority of them are S10 Ap2. (Or Ap1 Ignores Cover 7" Blast with a Typhon). What does that mean? that blob is now dead and gone instead of being a cheaper 10 man squad in a Rhino hopping for objectives. Conversely, deepstriking units are immune to any T1 Shooting since they're not on the table and they can be placed in very advantageous positions; a thing 20 man Tac Blobs can't do unless in a Khraybdis or Spartan...which just jacks up the cost of a unit that doesnt do much (unless World Eaters) besides cap objectives. Imperial Fists Termies w/ Shields also dont have the same application as justaerin so comparing the two is almost akin to apples and oranges. The only thing they have in common is being in TDA. If you wanted to compare the two, you'd take 5 Imperial Fists Terminators w/ 5 Combi-Weapons & Teleportation Transponder vs 5 Justaerin Terminators w/ Combi-Weapons. The only thing going for the IF in this regard is deepstrike without having to go through other hoops. Otherwise they have -1BS vs Justaerin in this scenario and are down 1 Wound and unless in cover, dont have Stubborn. Edited February 12, 2016 by Slipstreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Potato of Mankind Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 20 man tactical blobs are silly unless you're World Eaters or maybe Blood Angels. A Scorpius is going to cover you in S8 AP3 plates which will obliterate you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) 20 man tactical blobs are silly unless you're World Eaters or maybe Blood Angels. A Scorpius is going to cover you in S8 AP3 plates which will obliterate you. Or Medusae. Or Magna-Melta Preds. Or the Solar Auxilia, in general. Oh and now Vindicators come in squadrons! It's not a good time to be a blob. edit: AND PHOSPHEX QUAD-LAUNCHERS geez RIP blobs indeed Edited February 12, 2016 by LetsYouDown God-Potato of Mankind 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norngahl Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 A thing completely forgotten seems to be dealing with 2+ on terminators. I'd rather drown IF terminators in shots than wasting my ap2 weapons on them. 3 quad mortars do 36 hits on average, 24 wounds, 4 dead terminators, thank you. But beside this, bs5 is huge when it comes to special weapons. Plasma and Melta is quite obvious, but gunning any unit down with combiweapons and then charging them and claiming +1 attack on top for outnumbering them is ace. Thing is everything works together now. Bring a unit in dreadclaw. Turn 1 or turn 2 with reserves reroll, so you propably get your reinvorces when you want them. Drop, jink, move, shoot, attack. Outch. Or drop, shoot SH or important target, get back in next round, charge turn 3. There is no flaw in this tactic or unit. It's just hella expensive and elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) There is also the new Rite, that gives you Terminators as troops and a bunch of other bonuses. So now you can have a volkite support squad that can reposition to fire as long as they are in your deployment zone. Then in no-man's land your guys get more reliable charges and re-roll 1s first turn of combat, on top of extra attacks from merciless fighters. I agree, though, Imperial Fists are another potentially potent Legion with their new rite that gives them teleporting seemingly army-wide (see what I said about no bad Legion?). At least they didn't get to join the assault cannon bonanza of the Blood Angels. Otherwise they have -1BS vs Justaerin in this scenario and are down 1 Wound and unless in cover, dont have Stubborn. You forgot furious charge, chosen warriors, and WS5. Edited February 12, 2016 by Terminus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 There is also the new Rite, that gives you Terminators as troops and a bunch of other bonuses. So now you can have a volkite support squad that can reposition to fire as long as they are in your deployment zone. Then in no-man's land your guys get more reliable charges and re-roll 1s first turn of combat, on top of extra attacks from merciless fighters. I agree, though, Imperial Fists are another potentially potent Legion with their new rite that gives them teleporting seemingly army-wide (see what I said about no bad Legion?). At least they didn't get to join the assault cannon bonanza of the Blood Angels. *sniffle* Its ok! We didn't need ASSAULT CANNONS ON ALL THE THINGS! Anyways... *Sniffle* But yes, In general, most armies now have a form of Rapid Deployment available which helps a lot in getting stuff where you need it fast. Otherwise, they spend their time getting Pie-Plated to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 There is also the new Rite, that gives you Terminators as troops and a bunch of other bonuses. So now you can have a volkite support squad that can reposition to fire as long as they are in your deployment zone. Then in no-man's land your guys get more reliable charges and re-roll 1s first turn of combat, on top of extra attacks from merciless fighters. I agree, though, Imperial Fists are another potentially potent Legion with their new rite that gives them teleporting seemingly army-wide (see what I said about no bad Legion?). At least they didn't get to join the assault cannon bonanza of the Blood Angels. :P *sniffle* Its ok! We didn't need ASSAULT CANNONS ON ALL THE THINGS! Anyways... *Sniffle* But yes, In general, most armies now have a form of Rapid Deployment available which helps a lot in getting stuff where you need it fast. Otherwise, they spend their time getting Pie-Plated to death. Those Michelangelo d-bags even have assault cannon attack bikes!!!! We used to be best buds before that heresy thing too! O_0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Is there such a thing as wasting ap2 weaponry on terminators...? But yes, SoH are sweet now and all the units have some major flavour and punch! Reavers being the veteran/ seeker/ assault marine hybrid is a dream squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I dont get all the hype. Sure there are some fine buffs for the SoH but the imperial fisters are still the top legion (regarding the rules). They can just spam 20-man-tac-blobs and before u come into your precious 12" u dont have the critical mass anymore to do real damage. Its a similar situation for the justaerian. 2 wounds is nice as well as stubborn and furious charge, but they still have t4 and a 4+ invuln. One hit with a hammer and they are gone. Plus fister termis can have a 3+ invuln. I feel like that the SoH got buffs, that u cant really ultilize unless ur opponent brings a stupid list, that allows u to bring more than 500 points in reserve or allows you to run across the board without gettin obliterated. Or did I miss something?Why would you play a marching blob list with Sons of Horus? The new buffs and the Rites of War clearly intend for Sons of Horus to be a drop pod/deep striking army, in which case they should easily be within 12" and will always get the first shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I got a 3000 point list in mind already. LOW: HorusHQ: Herald + 4 Cataphractii Command Squad chainfist, 2 claws, power fist, 3 combi-plasmas, plasma blasterTroops: 5 Justaerin Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-meltas, multimeltaTroops: 5 Justaerin Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-meltas, multimeltaTroops: 5 Legion Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-plasmas, plasma blasterTroops: 5 Legion Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-plasmas, plasma blasterHS: Leviathan with lance/drill/phosphex in Dread Drop PodHS: Leviathan with bombard/claw/phosphex in Dread Drop PodHS: Deathstorm Pod with krak missiles Open with the two Leviathans. Turn two brings precision strike Horus and a terminator squad of my choice (considering making Herald + Command squad Tartaros so they can sweep...Horus can tank and cover from the dreads should help too) and deathstorm, plus as many terminators that make their reserve rolls (who get to deep strike or outflank as they choose). Only 25 dudes, 2 dreads, and 3 drop pods. Should be simple enough. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 There was a change to the rules that prevented a null deployment in Book 5. It's unclear if it was intentional or not, and I don't know if Book VI changed it. Essentially, if there's ever a point at which you don't have models on the table, you lose, which in this instance is before a model's deployed. Deathstorm needs to pick up DPA unless it's now got it natively, which is a hefty 5 melta bombs from somewhere. Otherwise, yeahhhhhh. Only issue is something capable of contra playing you at your own game. Lord Blackwood 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I got a 3000 point list in mind already. LOW: Horus HQ: Herald + 4 Cataphractii Command Squad chainfist, 2 claws, power fist, 3 combi-plasmas, plasma blaster Troops: 5 Justaerin Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-meltas, multimelta Troops: 5 Justaerin Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-meltas, multimelta Troops: 5 Legion Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-plasmas, plasma blaster Troops: 5 Legion Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-plasmas, plasma blaster HS: Leviathan with lance/drill/phosphex in Dread Drop Pod HS: Leviathan with bombard/claw/phosphex in Dread Drop Pod HS: Deathstorm Pod with krak missiles Open with the two Leviathans. Turn two brings precision strike Horus and a terminator squad of my choice (considering making Herald + Command squad Tartaros so they can sweep...Horus can tank and cover from the dreads should help too) and deathstorm, plus as many terminators that make their reserve rolls (who get to deep strike or outflank as they choose). Only 25 dudes, 2 dreads, and 3 drop pods. Should be simple enough. I think you need a compulsory HQ here though. Herald might have Rite of Command and be a Master of the Legion, but he's also a Support Officer..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) Well there goes that plan, didn't note the support officer. I could use the Primarch HQ rite, but then everyone in reserve can only outflank or slog across the table. Alternatively give up on Herald and just take the Equerry. Is the "no models you lose" thing even if you go first? Edited February 12, 2016 by Terminus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Pretty sure the "No Models, You Lose" Only comes into effect at the end of the Game Turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Okay, so all I have to do is either win the roll-off, or seize initiative on a 4+. If I fail to take first turn or the opponent seizes, the game ends without me having to deploy or the opponent having to move. Care to play another game? I'll get that first turn eventually. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Okay, so all I have to do is either win the roll-off, or seize initiative on a 4+. If I fail to take first turn or the opponent seizes, the game ends without me having to deploy or the opponent having to move. Care to play another game? I'll get that first turn eventually. "OK I'll let you roll again but that makes it 5-0 in under a minute." "I'LL GET THAT FIRST TURN EVENTUALLY" Terminus 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I got a 3000 point list in mind already. LOW: Horus HQ: Herald + 4 Cataphractii Command Squad chainfist, 2 claws, power fist, 3 combi-plasmas, plasma blaster Troops: 5 Justaerin Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-meltas, multimelta Troops: 5 Justaerin Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-meltas, multimelta Troops: 5 Legion Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-plasmas, plasma blaster Troops: 5 Legion Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-plasmas, plasma blaster HS: Leviathan with lance/drill/phosphex in Dread Drop Pod HS: Leviathan with bombard/claw/phosphex in Dread Drop Pod HS: Deathstorm Pod with krak missiles Open with the two Leviathans. Turn two brings precision strike Horus and a terminator squad of my choice (considering making Herald + Command squad Tartaros so they can sweep...Horus can tank and cover from the dreads should help too) and deathstorm, plus as many terminators that make their reserve rolls (who get to deep strike or outflank as they choose). Only 25 dudes, 2 dreads, and 3 drop pods. Should be simple enough. :D Because you have so many guys Deep Striking, you may want to consider taking a Damocles Rhino. It works very well in these types of lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Ok, I think I got it. HQ: Primus MedicaeHQ: Damocles Command RhinoElites: Contemptor Cortus in Dreadnought Drop PodElites: Contemptor Cortus in Dreadnought Drop PodTroops: 5 Justaerin Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-meltas, multimeltaTroops: 5 Justaerin Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-meltas, multimeltaTroops: 5 Legion Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-plasmas, plasma blasterTroops: 5 Legion Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-plasmas, plasma blasterHS: Leviathan with bombard/drill/phosphex in Dreadnought Drop Pod 395HS: Deathstorm Pod frag launcherHS: Deathstorm Pod frag launcherLOW: Horus May need to drop tweak a few points here or there, but it's within a dozen points of 3000. So compulsory HQ met, model on the table met, game opens with orbital lance strike from command rhino and all three dreadnoughts that drop in ways to use the pods to separate and mire enemy forces. Turn 2 Horus and squad pinpoint deep strike where they need to, and the remainder come in on 3+ and don't scatter within 24" of command rhino. Seems good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 In defense of tactical squads, after playing against some experienced opponents I find small blast templates like thudd guns and scorpius much less effective in practice than people make them sound in principal. They are still one of the weakest troops choices, but if you're against somebody who maximizes 2" coherency you'll find yourself wasting high strength shots to remove 3-4 models a turn. The new SoH rules are awesome, though, and I am super excited for your guys getting the love you deserve. Our local player is ecstatic- and he should be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Ok, I think I got it. HQ: Primus MedicaeHQ: Damocles Command Rhino Elites: Contemptor Cortus in Dreadnought Drop Pod Elites: Contemptor Cortus in Dreadnought Drop Pod Troops: 5 Justaerin Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-meltas, multimelta Troops: 5 Justaerin Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-meltas, multimelta Troops: 5 Legion Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-plasmas, plasma blaster Troops: 5 Legion Terminators chainfist, 2 claws, 2 power fists, 4 combi-plasmas, plasma blaster HS: Leviathan with bombard/drill/phosphex in Dreadnought Drop Pod 395 HS: Deathstorm Pod frag launcher HS: Deathstorm Pod frag launcher LOW: Horus May need to drop tweak a few points here or there, but it's within a dozen points of 3000. So compulsory HQ met, model on the table met, game opens with orbital lance strike from command rhino and all three dreadnoughts that drop in ways to use the pods to separate and mire enemy forces. Turn 2 Horus and squad pinpoint deep strike where they need to, and the remainder come in on 3+ and don't scatter within 24" of command rhino. Seems good. primus medicae & damocles also support hq actually the damocles isn't literally a support hq, just specified as non-compulsory 1 per 1000 pts I think. Try a Chaplain instead maybe? Edited February 13, 2016 by LetsYouDown Caillum 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caillum Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Still don't have a Compulsory HQ Terminus - both MoS and Damocles are non-Compulsory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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