[HH1.0] Sons of Horus Tactica

[Terminus]

 

What do people think about reavers outflanking now and using combi weapons en masse?

Better than seekers if you ask me.

 

Reavers are "better than X" most of the time I would say.

 

For example, just keeping options basic:

 

10 Reavers, 8 combi-plasmas, 2 plasma-guns - 320

10 Seekers, 10 combi-plasmas - 350

 

Seekers are better during the first shooting phase if they are firing against their preferred enemy.  Is the +1BS capped at 5, or will they go to BS6? If the latter, they will always be re-rolling 1s to hit within 12".  Seekers are scoring, which is an advantage that disappears if Reavers are taken as troops.

 

After that, you have BS5(6?) special ammunition vs. BS5 banestrike bolters and 2 plasma guns. The Reavers also have 2 base attacks each and can take a bunch of power weapons/fists with the points you saved, so you can also take advantage of merciless fighters.

 

Finally, but perhaps most importantly, Reavers have more deployment options with Innate outflank, dreadclaw access, and flat jump-pack costs. So yes, the vast majority of the time they are clearly better.

 

Speaking of jump packs, it's the same thing if you compare them to assault squads:

15 Assault Marines without options - 325

15 Reavers with jump packs - 335

 

Right off the bat, that extra 10 points buys you an extra attack per guy, outflank, and assassin's eye.  Then instead of just 3 power swords and Sgt gear, you can take 3 flamers or melta-guns and how ever many power weapons/fists you want. Clearly superior.

 

Between generic and unique rites, Maloghurst, and Horus, all Sons of Horus troop choices should always be some variety of Terminators, Reavers, or Veterans (and even with these probably just the sniper/meltabomb variety).

[Lord Asvaldir]

 

 

Speaking of jump packs, it's the same thing if you compare them to assault squads:

15 Assault Marines without options - 325

15 Reavers with jump packs - 335

 

Right off the bat, that extra 10 points buys you an extra attack per guy, outflank, and assassin's eye.  Then instead of just 3 power swords and Sgt gear, you can take 3 flamers or melta-guns and how ever many power weapons/fists you want. Clearly superior.

 

I've found that unfortunately for assault marines, this is the case when comparing them to pretty much any legion specific jump pack unit. Reavers, raptors, dark furies..all just so much better than your generic assault marines. I really hope they get the rumored pts drop in the coming update, because right now pretty much any legion with unique jump infantry just cannot justify taking assault marines.

 

As far as reavers go I think their versatility just makes them a whole lot better than a lot of similar units.  Whether you want them loaded up with some power weapons and jump packs, or combi weapons/volkite chargers it's just a solid, all round unit that really takes advantage of the SoH legion rules. 

[Terminus]

Volkite is pretty expensive though, 55 points more than a full-size caliver support squad.

 

And yes, generic jump troops really need help. The first 10 should not be paying 10 points per pack. If they were 200 for initial unit, they would be okay. Command squads shouldn't have to pay 15 points per guy either. Jump packs should be 5 points for non-IC.

[Caillum]

BS6 works for combi-plasmas nicely. They'll be able to get re-rolls on those 1's (to avoid Gets Hot), but will only hit on a re-roll of a 6. Still, reduces casualties and increases hits.

 

With anything else, it's probably not as important.

[PastelAvenger]

I don't think Assassin's Eye was mentioned enough Combi Reavers are excellent at hunting a Primarch and his unit with the ability to allocate hits against The Big Bad directly.

[Slips]

2+ Look Out Sir!'s Deem Assassins Eye vs an IC Unit to not really be all that effective :p

[Terminus]

Yes, shooting-wise, it's just mainly for sniping out special weapons, which is still a very nice perk.  Non-independent characters need a 4+ for LoS, so they aren't huge fans of multiple allocated wounds either.  Both seekers and reavers have it on ranged attacks, so I didn't think it needed mentioning.

 

I did mention that you get it in melee, although it's a bit less useful there since you'll likely be attacking at the same time or after the opponent, but it helps for prolonged encounters (like when your Sgt precision power fists the enemy apothecary in the unmentionables). Just enjoy the fact that with merciless fighters your power sword reavers get 5 swings when they charge (only matched by World Eater despoilers if they kill themselves) and 4 swings in subsequent rounds (unmatched except by other Sons of Horus).

[Lord Asvaldir]

Volkite is pretty expensive though, 55 points more than a full-size caliver support squad.

 

And yes, generic jump troops really need help. The first 10 should not be paying 10 points per pack. If they were 200 for initial unit, they would be okay. Command squads shouldn't have to pay 15 points per guy either. Jump packs should be 5 points for non-IC.

 

Ya 5pts/m for volkite would have been nice. 5pts/m for jump packs would be so much better, really assault marines just need any pts reduction they can get. 

 

I find the best use for precision shots is getting rid of those pesky apothecaries, and since combi plasma will go right through artificer armor chances are if you throw two hits on an apoth he'll probably miss LoS for one and die. 

[Bmseifer]

I'm starting a sons of horus army with the BaC box. First 2 squads will be a 10 men veteran and 5 men legion terminator squad. I'm unsure on the loadouts though since I'm new to 30k. On the veterans I figured 2 heavy bolters with the sniper rule and a power fist and vexilla on the sergeant would be a good start. I'm at a loss on the terminators though. Whats a good 5-man loadout for them?

 

Edit: The terminators will probably be eligable for a transport in the not to far distant future if that is a good idea

Edited February 25, 2016 by Bmseifer

[Sentinel Guy]

I'm starting a sons of horus army with the BaC box. First 2 squads will be a 10 men veteran and 5 men legion terminator squad. I'm unsure on the loadouts though since I'm new to 30k. On the veterans I figured 2 heavy bolters with the sniper rule and a power fist and vexilla on the sergeant would be a good start. I'm at a loss on the terminators though. Whats a good 5-man loadout for them?

 

Edit: The terminators will probably be eligable for a transport in the not to far distant future if that is a good idea

I like to keep my terminators simple with 2 chainfists, 2 powerfists and a power sword/maul on the sergeant.  If I have extra points I'll take a plasma blaster for some improved shooting. Then I have them arrive turn 1 in a dreadclaw and assault tanks and units in turn 2.

[Charlo]

Combis are now very poweful on SoH terms though due to the +1BS at 12" and under.

 

I'd always consider a combi melta/ plasma as those 35-70 points will more than make themselves back in casualties.

[Bmseifer]

So how about 5 terminators with 2 pfists, 2 chainfists, 1 pwr weapon, 2 combi-bolters, 2 combi-plasma and plasma blaster. Would that be something that would work or are they not defined in their role with that loadout? Or would the improved shooting risk them not getting into assault?

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Make that 4 combi-plasma. 

Go all out on combi plasma or combi melta guns, or don't upgrade at all.

Same is true for Volkites on your terminators.

[PastelAvenger]

I personally don't see the point in power fists and chain fists both in a 5 man unit. Maybe a couple of power swords but that's only so you can munch through a Tactical Squad. I've never been sold on Lightning Claws just because of the price and now you would lose the combi weapon.

[Terminus]

I personally don't see the point in power fists and chain fists both in a 5 man unit. Maybe a couple of power swords but that's only so you can munch through a Tactical Squad. I've never been sold on Lightning Claws just because of the price and now you would lose the combi weapon.

You don't lose the combi-weapon and you don't have to buy two lightning claws. If you want to swing at initiative, the re-roll to wound is very handy.  With Merciless Fighters, you get to swing them a 3rd (or 4th if you charged) time at I1 too.

 

Power fists and chainfists both is more of a cost-saving thing, I don't feel you need to give everyone a chainfist if you're hunting tanks.

[PastelAvenger]

 

 

I personally don't see the point in power fists and chain fists both in a 5 man unit. Maybe a couple of power swords but that's only so you can munch through a Tactical Squad. I've never been sold on Lightning Claws just because of the price and now you would lose the combi weapon.

You don't lose the combi-weapon and you don't have to buy two lightning claws. If you want to swing at initiative, the re-roll to wound is very handy. With Merciless Fighters, you get to swing them a 3rd (or 4th if you charged) time at I1 too.

 

Power fists and chainfists both is more of a cost-saving thing, I don't feel you need to give everyone a chainfist if you're hunting tanks.

You will notice I said Lightning Claws as buying a pair I even reference losing the combi weapon so your comment makes no sense at all.

 

If you are going to spend that many points on a 5 man Terminator Squad You might as well take Justaerin.

[norngahl]

I was wondering if the cult army/legion crossover could be a great choice for us.

 

So far I was thinking (roughly)

 

Legion Praetor with gear

Commander with Cult Horde and Tainted Flesh

Psyker Lvl2 for spawning some Bloodletters

 

3x Quad Mortar with Frag/Shatter

1x 5 Justaerin with Combi Weapons in Dreadclaw

 

6x 20 Levys

 

1x 10 Reavers with 3 PW, 5 Chainaxes and 10 Kombi-Weapons

 

Fire Raptor

Leviathan in Dreadnought Drop Pod

 

Ca. 2250

 

 

Cult Hordes block own markers and march forward with the rest, leviathan and either justaerin or reavers drop first round (depending on targets), bloodletter summoning for even more bodies (throw all dices, I get a posessed model in return if perils kill the psyker).

 

If expending on 2,5k, add one fast attack cult choice and take a primaris with krakens on top. Drop/reduce whatever. Only true evil things you could face are super heavies with armored ceramite, but beside this, you will propably tear through most lists. You are still pretty mobile or have no worthy targets for enemy deathstars..

 

thoughts?

[A/O]

Forgive my ignorance but with the release of Retribution the SoH have become more competitive? Please tell me the Justaerin are now worth their points.

[Terminus]

Forgive my ignorance but with the release of Retribution the SoH have become more competitive? Please tell me the Justaerin are now worth their points.

It's not Retribution, it's the new Red Book, and yes to both of your questions, they are among the very best (imo definitely the best traitors, and a close tie with Raven Guard for overall)

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

Forgive my ignorance but with the release of Retribution the SoH have become more competitive? Please tell me the Justaerin are now worth their points.

 

It's not Retribution, it's the new Red Book, and yes to both of your questions, they are among the very best (imo definitely the best traitors, and a close tie with Raven Guard for overall)

I don't know if there the best. WB allied with Daemons cannot be matched in terms of cost efficiency. Granted, the Daemons are doing most of the work and the Word Bearers are pretty much a tax.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Daemons are straight up the best 30k army, alpha legion, raven guard and sons are all tier 1 though

[Terminus]

Yes, Word Bearers can be even better now with either a "better Orbital Assault with Troop Gal Vorbak", or an Army of Dark Compliance (or even sacrificial lamb to be even more appropriate), with zealot cultists with Zardu and an Alpha psyker to get things started, and then daemons as you said.  Daemons are very very strong in 30K due to carrying 40K point costs. Overall Legions are probably the weakest "faction" in 30K, with the normal humans and Mechanicum being able to squeeze out a whole more murder out of each point. The weak-sauce troop section is the worst of it, although there are a few lemons in each section.

 

If we're talking mano-a-mano Marine battles, though, I think Sons are appropriately "the best". Sons get perks at range and in melee, get two very nice unique rites, both of their unique units are excellent, and between the rites and character FOC-shifts, basically never have to look at the standard troop choices.

 

There are several factors that need to be considered when judging a Legion's strength.

1. Except for armor and heavy support units, the bulk of marines have a sweet spot for threat in the <12" range, whether it's rapid fire weapons or melee.

 

Sons aren't as good in melee as Night Lords/Emperor's Children/World Eaters, but their perk is nice when they have two excellent unique units that are solid in melee and can be bulky for outnumbering. A Sons of Horus Reaver with a jump pack can deliver 6 attacks when he charges, 7 if running the rite and ganging up on stuff.  Even World Eaters can't approach that! For shooting, they are all now pretty much BS5+ in close quarters, which is an absolutely enormous buff, again especially when you have two excellent unique units that can both bring combi-weapons on each guy. In the dawning of the Age of Darkness, when everyone just ran tactical blobs, Imperial Fists dominated because their bolters were BS5. Sons of Horus get that for pretty much everything.

 

2. Marines are actually very fragile, so any additional deployment options (deep strike, infiltrate, etc.) that can get them into that <12" sweet spot are invaluable. This is why the Orbital Assault rite of war is so popular.  The milk and butter of these lists are teleporting terminators and drop pod support squads. With their perks, as mentioned above, Sons get the best terminators and support squads for deep strike alpha strikes due to BS5. Of course, with wide-spread access to the Dreadclaw, you don't even need to do the rite, which is pretty restrictive. The Black Reaving Rite already gives your Justaerin deep strike, and Abaddon and Horus can bring a unit with them as well. Both Rites can grant you fleet for crossing ground swiftly.

 

3. The regular troop choices suck. They are all too expensive for what they do, so most successful Legion lists find ways to replace their troops with something more solid. This is why Pride of the Legion is so popular, because it lets you replace troops with Veterans and Terminators, and again, BS5 makes Sons of Horus Veterans and Terminators the best (several Legions can build better close combat veterans, but guns>melee).  Maloghurst is cheap as chips and opens up Reavers and Veterans as troops. Horus unlocks Legio Terminators and Justaerin. Black Reaving unlocks Reavers. The new rite (name escapes me) unlocks Legion Terminators.

 

To summarize, close range effectiveness, deployment options, solid troops. Sons are above average in deployment options criteria and excellent in the other two. Alpha Legion are so highly praised because with Skorr and mutable tactics they can infiltrate or scout or both a huge section of their army and take a commanding presence on the battle field, but once they are there, they are just regular marines. They have no great rites and both special units are mediocre. I would score them Average/Excellent/Average, which shows just how important positioning is that they can be top notch with just that. And that's why I consider Raven Guard the other top spot contenders, because they get infiltrate for all their infantry models for deployment shenanigans like the Alphas, and have Orbital Assault on crack as one of their rites. Their other rite is also solid (if you like militia anyway), and both unique units are very good. Their only "flaw" is a standard troop selection subject to just usual Rite modifiers, but at least they have infiltrate and fleet. I would rate them Excellent/Excellent/Average.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Terminus

[Bmseifer]

Looking for some guidance on what expand my betrayal of Calth force with. At the moment I have them built as 10 man vet squad and 5 man legion terminator squad. I also own 3 drop pods that I can use.

 

On my maybe-list:

2 Dreadclaw drop pods

5 or 10 reavers

combi-weapons

jump packs for the reavers?

Any tanks/fliers?

 

Haven't played a game with them yet so I have no idea on what works in a SoH army, any help is appreciated

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

What's better in a drop pod list, Combi-Plasma Reavers or Plasma Tactical Support Units? Edited February 27, 2016 by Prodigal Son of Magnus

[Charlo]

What's better in a drop pod list, Combi-Plasma Reavers or Plasma Tactical Support Units?

Reavers. Hands down.

 

Tactical support may get to fire more than once, but they seldom will.

 

Combi plasma reavers will hurt in both shooting and then proceed to wreck face in assault too. Similar enough in points too.

 

Sure they're both just a MEQ resilience but reavers are overall more useful.