New Codex thoughts and ideas

[Madmaardigan]

I don't mind the loss of psychic pilot THAT much because before the new dex the foot idea I saw was combat squad purifiers in a rhino for 3 charges, now you combat squad purifiers in a rhino and get 4 and with strikes being terrible now who else are u gonna stick in a rhino but purifiers? Loosing it on other vehicles like raiders and storm ravens suck, but I'm not as upset as I was once I realised purifiers are mastery lv 2

[HiveFleetKelari]

So it seems like we're falling back on the old days of playing the water army, with lots of Psycannons on Terminators hovering at 24", supported by fast-moving anti-infantry (Interceptors) and fast-moving flexible monsters (the two fire modes on the Heavy Psycannon is very nice and allows them to strip hull points as they close to bash things). Sad thing is, we've lost a lot of versatility with our PAGK, since the Psycannon went Salvo (as has been mentioned before). So, knowing what we know now, how do we make this work?

 

The Librarian seems like an auto-include, as does a Dreadknight (or 3). Stormraven is still our best AA. 

 

So what about the rest of the army? Terminators in dedicated Landraiders? Lascannon/missile dreadnoughts parked in the corner?

 

Do we take two Libbies and two minimum sized SS to unlock two Nemesis Strike Force charts so that we can stack Heavy Support/Fast Attack? Is it worth losing Objective Secured?

 

If you're going for batteries, nothing seems stronger that 2 full-sized Purifier squads, both in combat squads (8 Warp charges). With 2 ML3 Libbies, you're looking at 14 warp charges alone, not including whatever you'll get from your compulsory troops (2 WC minimum) and Dreadknight(s).

 

This may not be the best place for it, but getting a break-down of each slot with strengths and weaknesses seems like a good place to start.

[AnImA8]

For me the loss of Psychic Pilot just represented the loss of uniqueness, and a wasted opportunity on GW. The enormity of the power creep over this past edition, while scary, wasn't all that bad because it encompassed an increase in the uniqueness of units. The eldar dex has so many interesting options available to it, and I was really looking forward to something similar with GK's. The FAQ seemed to be pushing us in that direction as well.

My main gripe with GW is that they're not consistent in any of what they do. Even within a single edition they switch it up--at least if they standardized all codices as being a certain way within an edition then we could all suffer together, but instead GW giveth and GW taketh away seemingly on whim.

[knife&fork]

I've seen a lot of talk about Obsec land raiders in other threads. Just thought I'd chime in on that one since BA already have dedicated land raiders for everything. 

 

While raiders are tough they are frankly still overpriced. Using a 40 pt  unit like grots, guardsmen or cultists to objective sit is points well spent, 250+unit generally isn't. Specially with no fire points. 

[HiveFleetKelari]

I've seen a lot of talk about Obsec land raiders in other threads. Just thought I'd chime in on that one since BA already have dedicated land raiders for everything. 

 

While raiders are tough they are frankly still overpriced. Using a 40 pt  unit like grots, guardsmen or cultists to objective sit is points well spent, 250+unit generally isn't. Specially with no fire points. 

 

That jives with my thoughts on Land raiders in general (to date, I don't own one). The Crusader is nice for assaulting, simply because of the capacity, but beyond that, I'm not sure they bring as much to the table as 250+ points of other things (like Dreadknights!).

 

Does anyone have any overwhelming success using the Phobos (lascannon) pattern raider as anti-tank? AV14 is tough to crack, but with only 2 shots a turn at AP2, I don't imagine it makes its points back often.

[BloodTzar]

Overall I am very disappointed with a new codex; to me it seems like GW just wanted to say: " **** U MATT WARD! " (while he has left GW) and gimped his most famous "piece of art". 

 

(Basically, beyond few relics and some buffs to units that has not been selling well,there is not much this codex has brought.)

 

 

While doing so, they have lost huge potential, as the GK codex used to be hit of the 5th and almost everyone had some GK at home. Moreover, I hope they will realize this and soon enough will release a data slate or at least something to generate at least some income from this potential fail (new codex).

 

 

On the other hand I think GW's fail might be huge opportunity for a FW range models/books. 

 

 

~BT

[Gentlemanloser]

Matt ward.  Your fluff was ridiculous, and wasn't good by a long stretch.  I longed for it to be improved.

 

But.  You showed vision and drive towards the dexes you wrote.  There was an underlying theme, a unique one at that, to the Grey Knights.

 

And while there was stuff that needed playtesting, editing and fixing, it was a *damn* sight better than the current 'grey' we have.

 

(Almost) All is forgiven Matt.  I'd have you back in a heartbeat.

[AnImA8]

I hate to admit it... but GL is right.

Help us Matt. You're our only hope.

[knife&fork]

 

That jives with my thoughts on Land raiders in general (to date, I don't own one). The Crusader is nice for assaulting, simply because of the capacity, but beyond that, I'm not sure they bring as much to the table as 250+ points of other things (like Dreadknights!).

 

Does anyone have any overwhelming success using the Phobos (lascannon) pattern raider as anti-tank? AV14 is tough to crack, but with only 2 shots a turn at AP2, I don't imagine it makes its points back often.

 

 

I've used more and more TLLCs lately both on raiders and dreads.  You'll never get a good volume of fire or the frequent one shots of vehicles like you do with melta.

 

On the other hand they are extremely reliable.

Range is great, strength is great and you always have a low AP without the need for rends. They are the silent heroes of the match as they strip wounds and hull points all game, occasionally surprising you with an insta-gibbed character or exploded vehicle.  

 

I don't think they are suited to being the dedicated anti-tank of a list, but I think they work well in filling the gap between real anti-av (fast melta) and the high volume, medium strength (S5-7) shooting that's good for stripping hull points but not so great against tough infantry. 

[lt051]

Are las/missile dreads really our best av again? I remember this in 4th, hope history doesn't repeat, those were dark times

[Valerian]

Are las/missile dreads really our best av again? I remember this in 4th, hope history doesn't repeat, those were dark times

Who, me?

[boreas]

I'll quote myself from another thread:

 

Better fluff, worst rules

 

[lt051]

Are las/missile dreads really our best av again? I remember this in 4th, hope history doesn't repeat, those were dark times

Who, me?

Just noticed new dreads don't keep storm bolters with missile launchers.... Why? golly gee

[Malus Trux]

That's just Forge World's design. They don't keep arm weapons on the arms for their Mk 4 dreads. Sleeker I guess. You still lose it if you lose the arm, either by weapon destroyed or weapon swap. So while it's there on the model you can't use it.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

We've basically got two builds that sorta work now. The Nemesis Strikeforce is geared towards a TDA HQ (either GM or Libby), a couple of DK's, and then as many Terminators as you can fit into that point level. 

 

The other option is again a TDA HQ, followed by two full strength Purifier units (quad psycannon, falchions and 1-2 hammers), min Strikes, a Raven/Interceptor squad, and then 1-2 DK's in Heavy. 

 

It's very hard to deviate from either of those two builds. None of the other PA heroes work with how our units operate, or do enough psychic support to justify their existence. Dreads are terrible, Tech-Marines are massively expensive for a 1-wound model (conversion beamers are nice, but urgh, that point cost). Land Raiders just cost too much compared to Ravens, and they force you to take Terminators. Purgators are utterly useless, without Interceptor or Skyfire there is no point to them whilst Purifiers are an option. Doing the math, Purifiers are 30 points more for the same loadout on both (quad psycannon, falchions and 1-2 hammers), but get +1A, Fearless, WC2, Cleansing Flame, and don't compete for space with Dreadknights. It's absurd. 

[lt051]

I'm gonna be honest, as competitive as it was, I'm glad the psyfleman dread is gone, it made no sense fluff wise, and id rather see 2-3 dreadknights with varried load outs than 2-3 dreadnoughts with the exact same build in an army where dreads are particularly rare.

 

But I'm in this hobby for the fluff and modeling :) my heart goes out to anyone who took Gk up at the start of 7th to combat daemons

[Valerian]

I'm gonna be honest, as competitive as it was, I'm glad the psyfleman dread is gone, it made no sense fluff wise, and id rather see 2-3 dreadknights with varried load outs than 2-3 dreadnoughts with the exact same build in an army where dreads are particularly rare.

 

I agree.  Wondered why they had Psybolts affect Autocannons in the first place.  However, when they removed the Psybolts, it would have really helped if they had remembered to price the Dreadnought reasonably (i.e closer in price to other Dreadnoughts), so some folks would take them, perhaps, with various load-outs now.  Instead, they probably won't be taken at all.

[Dread]

Same here. I liked the fact that we had the same as hades auto cannon, in line with CSM, and *pop*, gone like that. GW is shaking their finger at everyone that isn't CSM and saying "no no no, not for you" IMHO.

 

I just haven't figured out why they're showing a Typhon missile launcher on the pages I've seen on line. Are we getting something maybe?

[Valerian]

 

I just haven't figured out why they're showing a Typhon missile launcher on the pages I've seen on line. Are we getting something maybe?

 

Upgrade option for the Stormraven (exchange twin-linked heavy bolter for a TML).

I've created proposed Army List over in the list sub forum if anyone would like to go in for comments and recommendations.

[Dread]

Thanks V, I feel, well duh. I don't have that on either of mine so, shoom, right over my head. But I will say, I wish I had now with no psybolt anymore. Also wish I didn't put the hurricanes. Magnets, *slaps forehead*.

[hornywingythingy]

Same here. I liked the fact that we had the same as hades auto cannon, in line with CSM, and *pop*, gone like that. GW is shaking their finger at everyone that isn't CSM and saying "no no no, not for you" IMHO.

Lol well tbf GW have been doing that to chaos since 4th ed, drop pods? Other dedicated transport options than rhino? Legion rules? Even the demon weapons have been cut back.

 

Also, the Hades only had 24" range, on a bs3 platform with no twinlinking, that cost 175 points!

[AnImA8]

We've basically got two builds that sorta work now. The Nemesis Strikeforce is geared towards a TDA HQ (either GM or Libby), a couple of DK's, and then as many Terminators as you can fit into that point level. 

 

The other option is again a TDA HQ, followed by two full strength Purifier units (quad psycannon, falchions and 1-2 hammers), min Strikes, a Raven/Interceptor squad, and then 1-2 DK's in Heavy. 

 

It's very hard to deviate from either of those two builds. None of the other PA heroes work with how our units operate, or do enough psychic support to justify their existence. Dreads are terrible, Tech-Marines are massively expensive for a 1-wound model (conversion beamers are nice, but urgh, that point cost). Land Raiders just cost too much compared to Ravens, and they force you to take Terminators. Purgators are utterly useless, without Interceptor or Skyfire there is no point to them whilst Purifiers are an option. Doing the math, Purifiers are 30 points more for the same loadout on both (quad psycannon, falchions and 1-2 hammers), but get +1A, Fearless, WC2, Cleansing Flame, and don't compete for space with Dreadknights. It's absurd. 

I agree with your assessments to a degree, particularly about the absurdity of Purifiers and the fact that our competitive builds will likely vary little.

 

But after having said that, I disagree with your harkening back to Psycannons on PAGKs. Between the increase in price across the board and the definitive nerf that the Psycannon received I can't ever see myself fielding PAGK's with Psycannons anymore.

 

With the previous profile we could really position ourselves well. We could enter our 24" distance, and then maintain a withering hail of fire either by moving with the opponent and shooting twice, or by standing and shooting if the opponent came to us. Regardless of which option we chose, when it came time to assault we were always capable of shooting into that combat. This flexibility (with PsyAmmo as well) made our combined arms approach some of the most brutal in the game, and that mattered with our low number count.

 

Now though, we can still stand and shoot, but the moment the opponent tries to kite us we cannot really pursue. We suddenly find our range halved as well as reduced in number of shots. And if we do somehow end up within 12"? Then we're looking at choosing between shooting at half-effectiveness, or assaulting--assuming you've entered into a reasonable distance. In the vast majority of scenarios, that Salvo *2* profile will never get used. We will either shoot them as Heavy weapons or we will assault, and honestly that doesn't sound appealing with a 24" gun. Combine that with the across the board increase in price and the fact that these guys have 3+ armor, and I see no reason to ever use PAGK with Psycannons.

 

Quad Psycannon Purifier squads are just so absurdly overpriced for a bunch of Power Armored dudes...

[BloodTzar]

Please correct me if I am wrong,

But I cannot see reason why Draigo with 4x Inc Purifiers (or C-Sq-ed into 4 flamers+1 and sarge and rest camp obj) could not GoI (Gate) around the table T1; going for the massive BBQ (looking at you Cleansing flame) + 4 templates

Do not forget our NDKs are dancing around (shunting) as well so there might be massive T1 BBQ potential

~BT

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm gonna be honest, as competitive as it was, I'm glad the psyfleman dread is gone, it made no sense fluff wise, and id rather see 2-3 dreadknights with varried load outs than 2-3 dreadnoughts with the exact same build in an army where dreads are particularly rare.

Except Dreadknights will be packing the exact same build, because they now have to pull double duty as both fast melee threat and fire support. Losing psybolts makes Dreads completely worthless, especially with the utterly insane price hike they've taken.

Losing the PsyDread and the removal of Henchmen as a natural Troops choice has removed all of the 48" shooting from our codex. The only thing left that will see play that can shoot further than 24" are Ravens, and we'll be lucky to squeeze one into a list, nevermind two. It's a huge blow to variety, and just narrows the list of units we can take to even semi-competitive games.

But after having said that, I disagree with your harkening back to Psycannons on PAGKs. Between the increase in price across the board and the definitive nerf that the Psycannon received I can't ever see myself fielding PAGK's with Psycannons anymore.

What other option do you have though? Terminators cost way too much for psycannon spam, and they only bring one gun per squad. Purifiers will just have to Run until they hit 24" from the enemy gunline (I hate Salvo rules so much, halving range on the move is so dumb ). Its still 16 S7 Rending shots from the unit, and they will slap down both hordes of chaff (thanks to Soul Blaze on melee, Overwatch and Cleansing Flame) and elite units (falchions are the go-to option on the non-psycannon Purifiers). They're weak to Terminators, but you can't do much about that (cheers GW for AP in melee).

I'm still taking two full strength Purifier squads for fire support. One squad is too easily eliminated, you always need duplicates of your power units.

Quad Psycannon Purifier squads are just so absurdly overpriced for a bunch of Power Armored dudes...

Not really. I'll give you an example;

Flame Knight w/falchions, 2x Purifiers w/hammers, 3x Purifiers w/falchions, 4x Purifiers w/psycannons

(346 points)

Each combat squad costs about 175 each, and packs two psycannons, a hammer guy and two falchion guys (one of which will be the Flame Knight). Each generates 2WC, has both 'Hammerhand' and 'Cleansing Flame', has 2A base (3 on the falchion guys), Fearless and Soul Blaze on their melee. They will reliably kill twice their weight in Tactical Marines, they're next to impossible to jam up with chaff or overwhelm with numbers, they won't run away or be Pinned, and they pack a boatload of S6 force weapon attacks backed up by S10 force hammer attacks. In our codex, 5 vanilla Terminators cost only 10pts less than one of these combat squads, and do way less work.

If I could I'd take Purifiers as Troops. They're absurdly good. Also, if you want cheap units, you're playing the wrong army. We're lower model count than Deathwing on a good day.

But I cannot see reason why Draigo with 4x Inc Purifiers (or C-Sq-ed into 4 flamers+1 and sarge and rest camp obj) could not GoI (Gate) around the table T1; going for the massive BBQ (looking at you Cleansing flame) + 4 templates

All it takes is a single dispel on 'Gate', and your strategy fails and leaves the unit stranded. We're not the only who can spam warp charges, and even for lists that can't, they could still get lucky by throwing all their limited pool of dispel at that one critical spell (happens all the time when I try for 'Invisibility', its why I usually throw 6+ charges at it to ensure they can't easily dispel).

If you want Turn 1 BBQ, I would suggest Interceptors or Dreadknights. They don't rely on psychic powers to be mobile (teleporters just work), and they don't use the Deepstrike rules when they reappear (so no scatter).

[BloodTzar]

I was thinking about some massive WC spam to have; to build list around that  to be honest I did not rly spend much time on that however I might, where your opponent has to think about what to dispel and what not to, although to be competitive it must be done with allies.

 

List (Pure GK) 1850

 

LOTW:

Draigo - 2WC

 

HQ:

Libbyt (ML3, +1 power relic, Hammer) - 3WC

ELITES:

10xPuries (Hammer; 4xPsycans) - 2WC

 

TROOPS:

10xTermies (2xHammer, 2x Falcs 6xHelbs; 2xPsyCans) - 1WC

5x Termies (1xHammer, 1xFlac, 3xHelbs; 1xPsyCan) - 1WC

 

HEAVY:

2x NDK ( PT, H-PsyCan, H-Inc) - 2WC

 

Still few points (75) for a Ing with Rad/Psycho nades + skulls or something...

 

Draigo+Puries gates around for side armors etc. comming from DS makes them go full salvo.  did re-read the DS rules, 12" can be ok while getting them into right position ... propably Cleansing Flame might be used as well.

Termies and Libby can come T1 while using that formation, with shunting DK's this list is able to get real head ache T1 

 

Overall, you get 11(+1 potential from Inq) WC while not Cb-Sq-ed; I think that might be solid for powers you need even you will roll 1 for +D6.

 

~BT