New Codex thoughts and ideas

[Dread]

Ah crap hornywingythingy, see I've been putting together my Nightlords army, slowly, and really haven't looked at the things I'm not getting. Thanks for showing that.

 

Now, on topic, I wish I could really a weigh in here on the purifiers and such, but honestly after the hell turkey was introduced, I have only been playing a termie GK army because I got tired of losing 1-2 units per turn after it showed up on the table. I'm hoping that with the new dex I will want to play with the power armor part of my army again. Also since they fixed the turkey's rules.

 

As for Drago, well, he is/was my primary in big games . Now I guess after I get the detachments part of the army building figured out, he will be brought for certain kinds of whoopass games.

[AnImA8]

But after having said that, I disagree with your harkening back to Psycannons on PAGKs. Between the increase in price across the board and the definitive nerf that the Psycannon received I can't ever see myself fielding PAGK's with Psycannons anymore.

What other option do you have though? Terminators cost way too much for psycannon spam, and they only bring one gun per squad. Purifiers will just have to Run until they hit 24" from the enemy gunline (I hate Salvo rules so much, halving range on the move is so dumb ). Its still 16 S7 Rending shots from the unit, and they will slap down both hordes of chaff (thanks to Soul Blaze on melee, Overwatch and Cleansing Flame) and elite units (falchions are the go-to option on the non-psycannon Purifiers). They're weak to Terminators, but you can't do much about that (cheers GW for AP in melee).

I'm still taking two full strength Purifier squads for fire support. One squad is too easily eliminated, you always need duplicates of your power units.

Quad Psycannon Purifier squads are just so absurdly overpriced for a bunch of Power Armored dudes...

Not really. I'll give you an example;

Flame Knight w/falchions, 2x Purifiers w/hammers, 3x Purifiers w/falchions, 4x Purifiers w/psycannons

(346 points)

Each combat squad costs about 175 each, and packs two psycannons, a hammer guy and two falchion guys (one of which will be the Flame Knight). Each generates 2WC, has both 'Hammerhand' and 'Cleansing Flame', has 2A base (3 on the falchion guys), Fearless and Soul Blaze on their melee. They will reliably kill twice their weight in Tactical Marines, they're next to impossible to jam up with chaff or overwhelm with numbers, they won't run away or be Pinned, and they pack a boatload of S6 force weapon attacks backed up by S10 force hammer attacks. In our codex, 5 vanilla Terminators cost only 10pts less than one of these combat squads, and do way less work.

If I could I'd take Purifiers as Troops. They're absurdly good. Also, if you want cheap units, you're playing the wrong army. We're lower model count than Deathwing on a good day.

lol this whole conversation seems like such role reversal to me! The fact that you, RD, are trying to convince me that 346 points is worthwhile for 10 Power Armored Purifiers is hilarious given some of our previous debates

I agree with the sentiment--that this is the army of super-elite infantry--but I think if you give it a couple of test runs you'll find that what I'm saying is true: 346 points is far too much for what you're gonna get out of those guys. Back when it was 290 points for the same squad, but without PML2, I was down. PML2 is really good, but it's not impressive on a squad that won't last long enough to make use of it.

At the point at which you're paying 346 points, I'd rather see 10 Terminators. For 2 Psycannons, you're almost there anyhow.

As to spamming Psycannons, I'm just not convinced that the Psycannon is worth spamming. I think it is definitively better on TDA models now (I know the PA vs TDA Psycannons was an argument we had a while back), and I think it's costed prohibitively enough to not make it worth spamming. I think it's best that we take it to add some *oomph*, and nothing more. Our AT can come from elsewhere.

[IndigoJack]

Our AT really can't come from too many more places, as we're not exactly chock full of it. I think the jury is still out on how bad psycannons are on strikes. Clearly, they're worse than before, but sitting mid-field and shooting 4 S7 AP4 rending shots is no joke. I think what we really need to do is a little less. Theory hammering, and a bit more play testing. I'd love to see some batreps go up this weekend on how our new book actually faired.

[BloodTzar]

List Up ...

 

I just realized how one-dimensional GK's got, while thinking of the list. Now with the "good" DS we are even less keen to use "less attractive" stuff in our dex.

[Adeptus]

Each combat squad costs about 175 each, and packs two psycannons, a hammer guy and two falchion guys (one of which will be the Flame Knight). Each generates 2WC, has both 'Hammerhand' and 'Cleansing Flame', has 2A base (3 on the falchion guys), Fearless and Soul Blaze on their melee. They will reliably kill twice their weight in Tactical Marines, they're next to impossible to jam up with chaff or overwhelm with numbers, they won't run away or be Pinned, and they pack a boatload of S6 force weapon attacks backed up by S10 force hammer attacks. In our codex, 5 vanilla Terminators cost only 10pts less than one of these combat squads, and do way less work. 

 

If I could I'd take Purifiers as Troops. They're absurdly good. Also, if you want cheap units, you're playing the wrong army. We're lower model count than Deathwing on a good day.

You make good points, but IMO, their practical inability to fire on the move just kills them. Your opponent will sit at range and blast you with AP3 or greater fire, and if you sit still to retain your shots you die, and if you move to close the gap you effectively give up a round of shooting. 16 Psycannon shots sounds scary, but you'll never get that many out of a power armoured unit.

 

Yeah, Terminators cost more but they effectively get twice as many shots per Psycannon, at twice the range, with a better armour save and the ability to charge after shooting. And they can deepstrike.

[Captain Coolpants]

Yeah practically 350pts for 10 Marines is simply crazy!

 

Now if those 10 Marines had some big ass guns or artificer armour then thats a whole different story... But they don't. Lol

 

Purifiers in my opinion are better naked, maybe an incinerator or 2. And just throw small 5 man squads at low armour blobs.

 

The ap4 flamers and psychic powers will take big portions of the squad away, then the small fearless squad can hold up the blob in combat long enough for your other units to do stuff.

 

Or shine them in an assault vehicle with helberds, activate hammerhand and force and throw them at whatever looks nastier. Because strength 7 force is pretty scary!

[BloodTzar]

Yeah practically 350pts for 10 Marines is simply crazy!

 

Now if those 10 Marines had some big ass guns or artificer armour then thats a whole different story... But they don't. Lol

 

Purifiers in my opinion are better naked, maybe an incinerator or 2. And just throw small 5 man squads at low armour blobs.

 

The ap4 flamers and psychic powers will take big portions of the squad away, then the small fearless squad can hold up the blob in combat long enough for your other units to do stuff.

 

Or shine them in an assault vehicle with helberds, activate hammerhand and force and throw them at whatever looks nastier. Because strength 7 force is pretty scary!

 

S7 AP3 at I4 isn't scary at all, DCA  I6 is much scarier in my book...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

lol this whole conversation seems like such role reversal to me! The fact that you, RD, are trying to convince me that 346 points is worthwhile for 10 Power Armored Purifiers is hilarious given some of our previous debates

346 points of Terminator don't do anywhere near the amount of work that Purifiers do. Also, good use of our defensive tech ('Shrouding', 'Invisibility', 'Forewarning') can keep PA models alive a lot longer than you might think.

I agree with the sentiment--that this is the army of super-elite infantry--but I think if you give it a couple of test runs you'll find that what I'm saying is true: 346 points is far too much for what you're gonna get out of those guys. Back when it was 290 points for the same squad, but without PML2, I was down. PML2 is really good, but it's not impressive on a squad that won't last long enough to make use of it.

Assuming you agree with the silly 'Mastery Level = powers you can cast' crowd, Purifiers can get 'Hammerhand' and 'Force' going at the same time, thus making them the scariest melee unit in our codex (or 'Cleansing Flame' instead of one of those, depending on the situation). The squad offers so much in one package. Yes its expensive, but considering they outfight most dedicated melee units and still shoot very hard (harder than Sternguard, harder than Devastators in many ways), that's why.

At the point at which you're paying 346 points, I'd rather see 10 Terminators. For 2 Psycannons, you're almost there anyhow.

For 330 you get 10 vanilla Terminators. Assuming you don't take psycannons, you still end up with a more expensive (and harder to wield unit, given their base size) squad, due to the neccessity of upgrading to falchions and hammers.

Don't blame me. GW made Strikes and Purgators completely useless, Interceptors and Purifiers are the only worthwhile PA choices now. We don't get multiple units to work together anymore, we have to get a small handful to do multiple roles. Yes, Heldrakes and Riptides take you apart at range. Our defensive tech can help with that, but its true that Purifiers still die like cheap Tac Marines. I hate the AP2 long range meta as well, but there is no point going 'just spam Termies lel', because that's an even more low model count list. I shove Dreadknights into people Turn 1 and make them deal with it (Interceptors as well, points permitting).

As to spamming Psycannons, I'm just not convinced that the Psycannon is worth spamming. I think it is definitively better on TDA models now (I know the PA vs TDA Psycannons was an argument we had a while back), and I think it's costed prohibitively enough to not make it worth spamming. I think it's best that we take it to add some *oomph*, and nothing more. Our AT can come from elsewhere.

Even with the stupid Salvo rules (which should just read 'you have to be stationary at 24" to use this gun'), psycannons are still our only real anti-tank that doesn't cost over 200 points on a single model (hi Land Raiders and Ravens). Dreads don't count, we lost psybolts and you'll never get in multi-melta range before they strip all your HP off.

The thing is, we're so overcosted now, we can't even spare the points for Allied anti-tank. It's retarded.

You make good points, but IMO, their practical inability to fire on the move just kills them. Your opponent will sit at range and blast you with AP3 or greater fire, and if you sit still to retain your shots you die, and if you move to close the gap you effectively give up a round of shooting. 16 Psycannon shots sounds scary, but you'll never get that many out of a power armoured unit.

I've been playing the quad psycannon Purifier build since our 5th edition codex dropped. It works. When I get into 24", I delete units that I fire at (especially with 'Prescience' up). I almost always camp anyway, when I move I rarely kill stuff (8 shots doesn't do what 16 does). I routinely do get that much out of them.

Yeah, Terminators cost more but they effectively get twice as many shots per Psycannon, at twice the range, with a better armour save and the ability to charge after shooting. And they can deepstrike.

You're missing the point. Terminators will never generate the same psycannon output, as they cost 1/3rd more (which goes higher with the mandatory falchion upgrade to most and the few hammers thrown in). Their 2+ sounds good, but my experience with Terminators is they die to massed fire poorly, and AP2 is even more painful. You lost more points per model with Terminators than with any other unit, and you never have enough to soak up that loss easily.

Charging after shooting doesn't matter to me, I rarely charge with Purifiers, I make the enemy come to me. Deepstrike is only relevant in our Nemesis formation (as we can Run to spread out/get behind LOS blocking terrain, plus shoot if need be), its otherwise a nice way to eat automatic ion accelerator to the head when you land, and basic castling tactics force you into their preferred killzone even without Interceptor shenanigans.

Yeah practically 350pts for 10 Marines is simply crazy!

(shrug) Play some other race then. We pay to be so elite. Purifiers wouldn't be so pricey if they were just melee or just shooty. By way of comparison, a full Sternguard unit in a pod with a mix of combi-meltas and actual melta comes to about the same (335 IIRC).

We honestly don't have many other options for an 'anchor' to our advance. Terminators are great until someone torrents or AP2's them to death, and they don't even fight any harder in melee (exactly the same statline, barring saves). Strikes are trash. Interceptors can't be a mainstay, they're much more useful as a harassment tool to get rid of annoyances like Lootaz, Devastators etc.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

We honestly don't have many options

 

Fixed. ;)

[BloodTzar]

Regarding the PML and powers cast, I have placed similar question few days ago in regards of Servin Loth to FW; the reply had indicate you are free to cast until u have WC (if you need I can post both mails).

 

" You can cast as many powers per phase as long as you have enough Warp charges to cast them."

[Quozzo]

Psycannons should just be Rapid Fire 2*

Terminators in their awesomeness can fire 4 shots at full range

 

Would solve a lot of problems, except the purifiers storming out of a land raider is but a fond memory now.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Regarding the PML and powers cast, I have place similar question few days ago in regards of Servin Loth to FW; the reply had indicate you are free to cast until u have WC (if you need I can post both mails.

 

Please do. I need to bank them for my next inevitable argument thread with the crowd that still think bold text = rules. 

Psycannons should just be Rapid Fire 2*

Terminators in their awesomeness can fire 4 shots at full range

 

Would solve a lot of problems, except the purifiers storming out of a land raider is but a fond memory now.

 

Y'know what psycannons should be? Range 36", Salvo 2/4. Move 6" and shoot 18" in 2-shot mode wouldn't be so bad, and camping at 36" would be infinitely better than 24". I mean, they give Tau and Eldar absurd long-range firepower that rips us to pieces Turn 1....and we're stuck with 24" or less on every weapon we have not on a vehicle. 

[BloodTzar]

AS requested (mail is from 15th AUG);

 

Hello guys,

 

First of all, thank you for such a great work you have done on this (Sevrin Loth) model, it is fantastic.

 

Second, in regards to his rules; I have few gaps that I would like you to help. To be more precise; 

 

The Armour of Selket: This is a suit of artificer armour 

that incorporates a psychic hood. In addition, the wearer 

can use their own psychic energies to empower the suit’s 

defences further. At the beginning of his player turn, 

by expending a Warp Charge, Loth’s 2+ Armour save 

becomes a 2+ Invulnerable save which lasts until the 

beginning of his controlling player’s next player turn.

 

Now in 7th ed, however you are not able to generate any warp charges at the begining of the turn, however you generate them in your "pychic phase". Therefore I would like to hear any clarification how to use this.

 

Second, with unclear GW ruling over powers cast by psyker per turn in regards his Psychic Lvl Mastery (PLM), I would like to ask, assuming being PLM 3 he is able to cast 3 powers per phase, does activation of Armour of Skelet count towards powers used by Sevrin per turn. 

 

Lastly, thank you in advance for clarification ! (If you can clarify # of powers cast per phase in regards of casters PLM, that would be great as well)

 

Kind regards,

Michal

 

 

 

 

forgeworld

Aug 15 (6 days ago)

 

to me

 

 

 

 

Hi,

         Thank you for your email.  with 7th Edition Sevrin Loth now generates his warp charges in the Psychic phase, so it now empowers his suit in the Psychic phase, rather than at the start of the turn as previous done.

The activation of his armour doesn't count towards his Psychic Mastery level 3 powers.  You can cast as many powers per phase as long as you have enough Warp charges to cast them.

We are currently looking at what errata is required for our books due to the release of new codex's and the latest edition of the 40k rules.  Once this is completed, we will release any required updates on PDF, via the downloads on our website.  As this is a massive under taking it will take quite some time to complete.

If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.

Regards,

Forge World

 

 

 

If you have a query about your order, please call

0115 900 4995 within the UK
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Our office hours are:

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Hope this helps,

~BT

[boreas]

I find 5-men PAGks get eaten piecemeal in my meta. Mind you, Tau, Eldars and IG (especially IG) are very present. The only PAGks I'm tempted to use now are Interceptors. Since I'm always going to field at least 2 teleporter NDK (boy, will my friends be unhappy, yet understanding!), the synergy is just too good. Once you've shifted your whole list 30" forward, shooty AT becomes irrelevant. Let the Hammers and NDK bust tanks. Leave a few GKT behind to camp and shoot psycannons.

[Bionicman]

lol this whole conversation seems like such role reversal to me! The fact that you, RD, are trying to convince me that 346 points is worthwhile for 10 Power Armored Purifiers is hilarious given some of our previous debates

346 points of Terminator don't do anywhere near the amount of work that Purifiers do. Also, good use of our defensive tech ('Shrouding', 'Invisibility', 'Forewarning') can keep PA models alive a lot longer than you might think.

I agree with the sentiment--that this is the army of super-elite infantry--but I think if you give it a couple of test runs you'll find that what I'm saying is true: 346 points is far too much for what you're gonna get out of those guys. Back when it was 290 points for the same squad, but without PML2, I was down. PML2 is really good, but it's not impressive on a squad that won't last long enough to make use of it.

Assuming you agree with the silly 'Mastery Level = powers you can cast' crowd, Purifiers can get 'Hammerhand' and 'Force' going at the same time, thus making them the scariest melee unit in our codex (or 'Cleansing Flame' instead of one of those, depending on the situation). The squad offers so much in one package. Yes its expensive, but considering they outfight most dedicated melee units and still shoot very hard (harder than Sternguard, harder than Devastators in many ways), that's why.

At the point at which you're paying 346 points, I'd rather see 10 Terminators. For 2 Psycannons, you're almost there anyhow.

For 330 you get 10 vanilla Terminators. Assuming you don't take psycannons, you still end up with a more expensive (and harder to wield unit, given their base size) squad, due to the neccessity of upgrading to falchions and hammers.

Don't blame me. GW made Strikes and Purgators completely useless, Interceptors and Purifiers are the only worthwhile PA choices now. We don't get multiple units to work together anymore, we have to get a small handful to do multiple roles. Yes, Heldrakes and Riptides take you apart at range. Our defensive tech can help with that, but its true that Purifiers still die like cheap Tac Marines. I hate the AP2 long range meta as well, but there is no point going 'just spam Termies lel', because that's an even more low model count list. I shove Dreadknights into people Turn 1 and make them deal with it (Interceptors as well, points permitting).

As to spamming Psycannons, I'm just not convinced that the Psycannon is worth spamming. I think it is definitively better on TDA models now (I know the PA vs TDA Psycannons was an argument we had a while back), and I think it's costed prohibitively enough to not make it worth spamming. I think it's best that we take it to add some *oomph*, and nothing more. Our AT can come from elsewhere.

Even with the stupid Salvo rules (which should just read 'you have to be stationary at 24" to use this gun'), psycannons are still our only real anti-tank that doesn't cost over 200 points on a single model (hi Land Raiders and Ravens). Dreads don't count, we lost psybolts and you'll never get in multi-melta range before they strip all your HP off.

The thing is, we're so overcosted now, we can't even spare the points for Allied anti-tank. It's retarded.

You make good points, but IMO, their practical inability to fire on the move just kills them. Your opponent will sit at range and blast you with AP3 or greater fire, and if you sit still to retain your shots you die, and if you move to close the gap you effectively give up a round of shooting. 16 Psycannon shots sounds scary, but you'll never get that many out of a power armoured unit.

I've been playing the quad psycannon Purifier build since our 5th edition codex dropped. It works. When I get into 24", I delete units that I fire at (especially with 'Prescience' up). I almost always camp anyway, when I move I rarely kill stuff (8 shots doesn't do what 16 does). I routinely do get that much out of them.

Yeah, Terminators cost more but they effectively get twice as many shots per Psycannon, at twice the range, with a better armour save and the ability to charge after shooting. And they can deepstrike.

You're missing the point. Terminators will never generate the same psycannon output, as they cost 1/3rd more (which goes higher with the mandatory falchion upgrade to most and the few hammers thrown in). Their 2+ sounds good, but my experience with Terminators is they die to massed fire poorly, and AP2 is even more painful. You lost more points per model with Terminators than with any other unit, and you never have enough to soak up that loss easily.

Charging after shooting doesn't matter to me, I rarely charge with Purifiers, I make the enemy come to me. Deepstrike is only relevant in our Nemesis formation (as we can Run to spread out/get behind LOS blocking terrain, plus shoot if need be), its otherwise a nice way to eat automatic ion accelerator to the head when you land, and basic castling tactics force you into their preferred killzone even without Interceptor shenanigans.

Yeah practically 350pts for 10 Marines is simply crazy!

(shrug) Play some other race then. We pay to be so elite. Purifiers wouldn't be so pricey if they were just melee or just shooty. By way of comparison, a full Sternguard unit in a pod with a mix of combi-meltas and actual melta comes to about the same (335 IIRC).

We honestly don't have many other options for an 'anchor' to our advance. Terminators are great until someone torrents or AP2's them to death, and they don't even fight any harder in melee (exactly the same statline, barring saves). Strikes are trash. Interceptors can't be a mainstay, they're much more useful as a harassment tool to get rid of annoyances like Lootaz, Devastators etc.

Regarding the PML and powers cast, I have placed similar question few days ago in regards of Servin Loth to FW; the reply had indicate you are free to cast until u have WC (if you need I can post both mails).

" You can cast as many powers per phase as long as you have enough Warp charges to cast them."

Darius, chill man, its all good. Even until a proper faq explains to these how powers work in 7th, Purifiers are ML 2 so no discussion here anyways. :)

Thank you for your effort BloodTzar! Sadly it is FW not GW but at least it is one argument more to shove it down their throat.

And I see the old TEQ <> MEQ argument is still alive. At least not everything has changed.

[boreas]

Well, just because it's very calm at work this morning and I feel like it:

You can cast as many powers per phase as long as you have enough Warp charges to cast them.

You, not your unit ( I know, I know....)

[Gentlemanloser]

Bad man!  Now stand still while I hit you with the "Matt Ward has left so we're nerfing his old work to get back at him" stick!

[BladeGaurd]

Things I dislike

I wanted ground base anti air which we did not get.

Our anti tank got hit by increase pt for a dreadnought and no psyrounds.

I dislike that non of our squads roll there powers like the demons or IG brother hood of psyker squads.

The purgation squad did not need night fighting but rather infiltrate or scout so did not waist a turn moving.

I want all the extra powers from santic items and ability FAQ concerning focus discipline.

Assassins are in a data slate

Things I like:

Liberian.... need I say more, a level 3 is almost an auto included

Halberd, makes hammer hand optional vs MEQs and with hammer hand you can glance a soul grinder.
The change to the warding staff

The fact the brotherhood champion is not a fighting style chaplain

our detachment is great
psylencers being force, death to nid warriors and zoenthropes
The coteaz henchman spam is gone

Razorbacks as Fast Attack, like wolves and orks based on patterns

paladins with an apothecary, amazing how changing 1 thing changes your prospective

the hand to hand weapon cost

Venerable dreadnoughts are cheaper by 25 pt

techmarines not taking an hq slot

 

Best unit: terminators

Worst unit: purgation squad

[AnImA8]

346 points of Terminator don't do anywhere near the amount of work that Purifiers do. Also, good use of our defensive tech ('Shrouding', 'Invisibility', 'Forewarning') can keep PA models alive a lot longer than you might think.

No one does as much damage output as Purifiers--period. But I'm more concerned about getting us there. You say that you just camp and wait for people to walk into your death-zone, but I know of no competent player that would allow that at my gaming store

 

Nevermind that all of this defensive tech you've spoken of is either redundant with, or applies to Terminators as well.

 

Assuming you agree with the silly 'Mastery Level = powers you can cast' crowd, Purifiers can get 'Hammerhand' and 'Force' going at the same time, thus making them the scariest melee unit in our codex (or 'Cleansing Flame' instead of one of those, depending on the situation). The squad offers so much in one package. Yes its expensive, but considering they outfight most dedicated melee units and still shoot very hard (harder than Sternguard, harder than Devastators in many ways), that's why.

I agree with you, Purifiers are amazing, but certain very specific conditions need to be met in order for them to be fully utilized (which, from the sound of it you don't even use them that way). Namely they practically NEED a stormraven, at which point I'm paying far too much for a squishy unit of marines in a transport that got gimped to hell and was overpriced to begin with.

 

For 330 you get 10 vanilla Terminators. Assuming you don't take psycannons, you still end up with a more expensive (and harder to wield unit, given their base size) squad, due to the neccessity of upgrading to falchions and hammers. 

 

Don't blame me. GW made Strikes and Purgators completely useless, Interceptors and Purifiers are the only worthwhile PA choices now. We don't get multiple units to work together anymore, we have to get a small handful to do multiple roles. Yes, Heldrakes and Riptides take you apart at range. Our defensive tech can help with that, but its true that Purifiers still die like cheap Tac Marines. I hate the AP2 long range meta as well, but there is no point going 'just spam Termies lel', because that's an even more low model count list. I shove Dreadknights into people Turn 1 and make them deal with it (Interceptors as well, points permitting).

With double Psycannons, the terminators will be marginally more expensive. Hammers and a Warding Stave are the only upgrades I see as essential: Halberds are nice so you don't really have to Hammerhand, but since we do have Hammerhand they're not necessary. Falchions definitely aren't necessary.

 

I don't disagree with your assessment of Strikes and Purgators btw either. They're absolute garbage now and I have no idea what GW was thinking... But where Interceptors are significantly better than Purifiers is that they can Deepstrike, Shunt, and generally move to where they need to be. These camping Purifiers of yours are impractical to me.

 

Even with the stupid Salvo rules (which should just read 'you have to be stationary at 24" to use this gun'), psycannons are still our only real anti-tank that doesn't cost over 200 points on a single model (hi Land Raiders and Ravens). Dreads don't count, we lost psybolts and you'll never get in multi-melta range before they strip all your HP off.

Psycannons are no longer our primary anti-tank, and I think you'll find that to be true. The changes to FoC slots was the only thing really barring our way from fielding a decent amount of lascannons and melta. I know how much you hate vehicles, but believe me even mech is better than this overpriced, stand-and-deliver style Purifier stuff...

 

I've been playing the quad psycannon Purifier build since our 5th edition codex dropped. It works. When I get into 24", I delete units that I fire at (especially with 'Prescience' up). I almost always camp anyway, when I move I rarely kill stuff (8 shots doesn't do what 16 does). I routinely do get that much out of them.

 

I'm sure when you do get to fire 16 shots, you practically delete units, but I'll keep saying: you can't enter into 24" AND still fire 16 shots, at which point your opponent has at least one turn of reprisal. How your Purifiers survive that, I do not know.

 

You're missing the point. Terminators will never generate the same psycannon output, as they cost 1/3rd more (which goes higher with the mandatory falchion upgrade to most and the few hammers thrown in). Their 2+ sounds good, but my experience with Terminators is they die to massed fire poorly, and AP2 is even more painful. You lost more points per model with Terminators than with any other unit, and you never have enough to soak up that loss easily. 

 

Charging after shooting doesn't matter to me, I rarely charge with Purifiers, I make the enemy come to me. Deepstrike is only relevant in our Nemesis formation (as we can Run to spread out/get behind LOS blocking terrain, plus shoot if need be), its otherwise a nice way to eat automatic ion accelerator to the head when you land, and basic castling tactics force you into their preferred killzone even without Interceptor shenanigans.

Your argument for Terminators points cost vs survivability was true back when PA dudes were half the cost. But once you make the Power Armored unit practically the same cost as the Terminator unit then there is no question of which is more survivable. If you think that TDA gets shredded by weight of fire, just wait until you have to roll your 3+. And if you think that AP2 hurts so much with just a 10 model squad, at least my Terminators get (essentially) free mobile cover.

 

As to not charging with Purifiers, half of our combat potential lies in the fact that our assaults are brutal as hell (sheer number of Power Weapon attacks, combined with Fearless, combined with other Purifiers Cleansing Flame into that combat). Even you mentioned it above in one of your posts. At the point at which you're disregarding that, I think you're overestimating the importance of the Psycannon in this new codex.

 

(shrug) Play some other race then. We pay to be so elite. Purifiers wouldn't be so pricey if they were just melee or just shooty. By way of comparison, a full Sternguard unit in a pod with a mix of combi-meltas and actual melta comes to about the same (335 IIRC). 

 

We honestly don't have many other options for an 'anchor' to our advance. Terminators are great until someone torrents or AP2's them to death, and they don't even fight any harder in melee (exactly the same statline, barring saves). Strikes are trash. Interceptors can't be a mainstay, they're much more useful as a harassment tool to get rid of annoyances like Lootaz, Devastators etc.

We don't pay to be that elite. I payed 250-290 points easy before, but the 310-350 range is where I draw the line. No one should have to pay that much for MEq's without guaranteed first-strike capability.

 

And no, Sternguard are not comparable to Purifiers in this regard. Sternguard can arrive where they please with Drop Pods, and are kitted with weapons that operate at full effectiveness when they move because of how close they've planted themselves to your vitals. A Sternguard unit, combat squadded into Meltas and Plasmas, can handily obliterate a tank and a squad of marines (TDA or PA), before consolidating and waiting for reinforcements to bail them out (whether its more Sternguard dropping in, or the front-line units the opponent had deployed on the field.

 

Purifiers, cannot Deep Strike, cannot take Drop Pods, and find their effectiveness almost halved once they move. Meltas at least get better upon moving into half-range lol

[Gentlemanloser]

Things I like:

 

I'm honestly not a negative nancy, but...

 

 

 

Halberd, makes hammer hand optional vs MEQs and with hammer hand you can glance a soul grinder.

 

HH = wound on 2's.

Halberd = wound on 3's.

 

 

The change to the warding staff

 

AP4 + Adamantite Will < 2++ in CC.

 

Hell Marines get Adamantite Will as an army wide special rule.

 

 

 

The fact the brotherhood champion is not a fighting style chaplain

 

Loss of force multiplication (from Herald of Titan rerolls) sucks.

 

 

 

our detachment is great

 

Space Wolf Drop Pods > our new detachment

 

 

The coteaz henchman spam is gone

 

Hello 330 cheapest cost for a GK CAD...

 

 

 

the hand to hand weapon cost

 

Justified by the *GIGANTANORMOUS* nerfs they received.

 

 

 

Venerable dreadnoughts are cheaper by 25 pt

 

Still too expensive by 25 points.  Venerable is a trap in 6th/7th

 

 

 

Purifiers, cannot Deep Strike, cannot take Drop Pods

 

Space Wolf Drop Pods. ;)

[lt051]

I can't believe I'm saying it, but I'm calling it right now:

Next update will be a digital only codex update. Why hello SoB, fancy seeing you here...

[AnImA8]

Purifiers, cannot Deep Strike, cannot take Drop Pods

Space Wolf Drop Pods.

Lol you filthy heretic! Allies are for the weak of will!

[boreas]

Well, in the limbo of GW's forgetfulness, we'll be able to shoulder-punch the SoB because we at least got to the plastic stage :P

[Gentlemanloser]

Shoulder punch? For a moment I read donkey-punch.

Am I allowed to say donkey-punch here? :/

[Reclusiarch Darius]

No one does as much damage output as Purifiers--period. But I'm more concerned about getting us there. You say that you just camp and wait for people to walk into your death-zone, but I know of no competent player that would allow that at my gaming store

 

Not what I said at all. Also, objective missions force you to move out from your DZ. This isn't 4th edition. 

Nevermind that all of this defensive tech you've spoken of is either redundant with, or applies to Terminators as well.

 

Have you actually used any of those powers? 2+ cover saves are amazing. 4+ invul is amazing. Snap Shooting only (meaning templates and blasts can't hit you) is broken insanity. The reason its worth more on Purifiers is instead of 10 I have 20 of them, along with the attendant doubling in firepower, wounds and melee attacks. Not to mention the flood of Warp Charges I'm drowning in. 

I agree with you, Purifiers are amazing, but certain very specific conditions need to be met in order for them to be fully utilized (which, from the sound of it you don't even use them that way). Namely they practically NEED a stormraven, at which point I'm paying far too much for a squishy unit of marines in a transport that got gimped to hell and was overpriced to begin with.

 

Purifiers have to do double duty as our fire support, because Purgators are garbage. What choice do we have?

With double Psycannons, the terminators will be marginally more expensive. Hammers and a Warding Stave are the only upgrades I see as essential: Halberds are nice so you don't really have to Hammerhand, but since we do have Hammerhand they're not necessary. Falchions definitely aren't necessary.

 

It's 370 for a 10-man Termie unit with double psycannon. 60pts more, and it has exactly the same number of attacks, half the psycannon output (although it stays consistent when it moves) and 10x 40mm bases is a lot harder to move and hide than 10x 25mm. Nemesis upgrades cost the same on both. Warding staves are pointless. Hammers are needed to bail them out of combat with 2+ saves or high Toughness monsters. Halberds are trash. Falchions are so cheap now and given both are melee units, why wouldn't you want more attacks?

I don't disagree with your assessment of Strikes and Purgators btw either. They're absolute garbage now and I have no idea what GW was thinking... But where Interceptors are significantly better than Purifiers is that they can Deepstrike, Shunt, and generally move to where they need to be. These camping Purifiers of yours are impractical to me.

 

But you only get 1 special per 5 man, which is as bad as Strikes. Also, the only usable special weapon on Interceptors is an incinerator. 

Psycannons are no longer our primary anti-tank, and I think you'll find that to be true. The changes to FoC slots was the only thing really barring our way from fielding a decent amount of lascannons and melta. I know how much you hate vehicles, but believe me even mech is better than this overpriced, stand-and-deliver style Purifier stuff...

 

Right. How will your mech list kill other mech lists? How does it deal with AV13 wall? Flyers? FMC? MC spam? 

 

Ravens are the only other reliable anti-tank we have now. DK's have to get into melee to be effective (they only get a 6 shot psycannon attempt at range). 

I'm sure when you do get to fire 16 shots, you practically delete units, but I'll keep saying: you can't enter into 24" AND still fire 16 shots, at which point your opponent has at least one turn of reprisal. How your Purifiers survive that, I do not know.

 

'Forewarning'. 'Shrouding'. 'Invisibility'. Blocking LOS terrain. Shoving Dreadknights and Interceptors at them as I advance. 

Your argument for Terminators points cost vs survivability was true back when PA dudes were half the cost. But once you make the Power Armored unit practically the same cost as the Terminator unit then there is no question of which is more survivable. If you think that TDA gets shredded by weight of fire, just wait until you have to roll your 3+. And if you think that AP2 hurts so much with just a 10 model squad, at least my Terminators get (essentially) free mobile cover.

 

Purifiers were 26ppm in the last codex with halberds. Even now, falchion Purifiers are 29ppm, but Terminators with the same are 37ppm. Still a big gap. 

5+ invul is entirely unreliable, its worse than actual cover except if you're in the open. 

As to not charging with Purifiers, half of our combat potential lies in the fact that our assaults are brutal as hell (sheer number of Power Weapon attacks, combined with Fearless, combined with other Purifiers Cleansing Flame into that combat). Even you mentioned it above in one of your posts. At the point at which you're disregarding that, I think you're overestimating the importance of the Psycannon in this new codex.

 

They're too slow to get the jump on anything, so you should expect to get charged first normally. That's why I take falchions. Of course, I'd like to charge if possible, but they're too slow normally. 

We don't pay to be that elite. I payed 250-290 points easy before, but the 310-350 range is where I draw the line. No one should have to pay that much for MEq's without guaranteed first-strike capability.

 

According to GW we do. Unless you'd rather spend even more points taking garbage like Purgators, who cost nearly the same anyway and achieve far less. 

And no, Sternguard are not comparable to Purifiers in this regard. Sternguard can arrive where they please with Drop Pods, and are kitted with weapons that operate at full effectiveness when they move because of how close they've planted themselves to your vitals. A Sternguard unit, combat squadded into Meltas and Plasmas, can handily obliterate a tank and a squad of marines (TDA or PA), before consolidating and waiting for reinforcements to bail them out (whether its more Sternguard dropping in, or the front-line units the opponent had deployed on the field.

 

But Sternguard have almost no melee capacity, beyond their veteran statline (which just means slightly more S4 punches than a Tac Marine squad). Given Sternguard are 30ppm with combi-weapons, and their special weapon dudes are about the same (30 for melta, 35 for plasma), I'd say they're comparable. I do like special ammo, no question. But equal points of Purifier will disembowel that squad once they close to melee, which given the fact Sternguard like to rapid-fire/shoot melta, is very likely. 

 

Sternguard do shoot a lot harder per model, but they have to. 

Purifiers, cannot Deep Strike, cannot take Drop Pods, and find their effectiveness almost halved once they move. Meltas at least get better upon moving into half-range lol 

 

Hey, I wanna set fire to the person who thought up Salvo as much as you do. GW have decided for us when it comes to psycannons. Either camp, or enjoy have bolt pistol range.