++ The Brotherhood of Dust - A Thousand Sons Community ++

[hivey]

If you take the grand coven detachment, and use magnus as your warlord, you can use the tzeentch warp storm, correct? Meets the criteria, comes from wrath of magnus, warlord has daemon of tzeenth.

[Charlo]

So I'm really liking the look of the Tzeench Decurion for allies, especially to just a load of sorcs.

 

Horrors shooting out autocannon level shots per turn is pretty Damn rad!

[Sonoftherubric21]

That's a very good point. I keep thinking like have normal CSM which isn't the case here. I am struggling to find where these fists or axes would come from though.

 

I have to admit after my last game with max Cabal for the favoured of Tzeentch rule I'm trying to figure out a way to make it more competitive at 1850. That level of survival on Scarab Occult is just darn fun.

 

give 2-3 sorcerers chain fists in terminator armor. abuse the 2+ re-roll.

 

sitting at 1580. 

 

Take rocket launchers for each occult squad. 

 

now your at 1640. youve got 210 to play with. 

 

Its very hard getting a good maxed War Cabal in 1850. so much easier in 2k. gotta trim the fat for a 1850 list.

[Prot]

 

That's a very good point. I keep thinking like have normal CSM which isn't the case here. I am struggling to find where these fists or axes would come from though.

 

I have to admit after my last game with max Cabal for the favoured of Tzeentch rule I'm trying to figure out a way to make it more competitive at 1850. That level of survival on Scarab Occult is just darn fun.

 

give 2-3 sorcerers chain fists in terminator armor. abuse the 2+ re-roll.

 

sitting at 1580. 

 

Take rocket launchers for each occult squad. 

 

now your at 1640. youve got 210 to play with. 

 

Its very hard getting a good maxed War Cabal in 1850. so much easier in 2k. gotta trim the fat for a 1850 list.

 

 

This is great advice. Just one thing... I've been skipping the Termie armour (it's the only place I can find points) to squeeze Ahriman in. He's a big deal in a list with very little damage potential. If I could get that damage from elsewhere, and save the points, I would. Just not sure I can.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

 

That's a very good point. I keep thinking like have normal CSM which isn't the case here. I am struggling to find where these fists or axes would come from though.

 

I have to admit after my last game with max Cabal for the favoured of Tzeentch rule I'm trying to figure out a way to make it more competitive at 1850. That level of survival on Scarab Occult is just darn fun.

 

give 2-3 sorcerers chain fists in terminator armor. abuse the 2+ re-roll.

 

sitting at 1580. 

 

Take rocket launchers for each occult squad. 

 

now your at 1640. youve got 210 to play with. 

 

Its very hard getting a good maxed War Cabal in 1850. so much easier in 2k. gotta trim the fat for a 1850 list.

 

 

This is great advice. Just one thing... I've been skipping the Termie armour (it's the only place I can find points) to squeeze Ahriman in. He's a big deal in a list with very little damage potential. If I could get that damage from elsewhere, and save the points, I would. Just not sure I can.

 

 

In 2000 or above id DEFINITELY take ahriman. its just so hard at 1850. on disc that puts you at 1760. 

 

Though i do agree that his damage potential is great, sitting at 16 warp charges for him and re-rollable saves. 

 

Maybe 1760 + rockets on occult? something like that. 

 

+ Terminator armor on 1 sorcerer + Melta bomb + Missiles on scarab occult. 

 

1850 on the nose. 

[Prot]

I think I played it bare bones on the Rubrics. They basically stood back, held objectives and farted dust.

 

The occults had one bare bones, and the other 2 had missiles. The sorcs were vanilla except the jump relic. Ahriman did most of the heavy lifting. At this point I'm convinced he has to be in there because no other Sorc is going to have his flat out damage potential.

 

On a side note.... with the FAQ regarding Shriek, could I use that to auto hit a flying mc?

[Sonoftherubric21]

I think I played it bare bones on the Rubrics. They basically stood back, held objectives and farted dust.

 

The occults had one bare bones, and the other 2 had missiles. The sorcs were vanilla except the jump relic. Ahriman did most of the heavy lifting. At this point I'm convinced he has to be in there because no other Sorc is going to have his flat out damage potential.

 

On a side note.... with the FAQ regarding Shriek, could I use that to auto hit a flying mc?

 

As an example of a list I am fond of within the war cabal: 

 

This focuses on my love of basic rubricae...

 

Cabal Leader: Sorcerer, Terminator armor

-sorcerer, melta bomb

-sorcerer, melta bomb

-sorcerer, melta bomb

 

-Scarab Occult

-Scarab Occult - hellfire missiles

-Scarab Occult - hellfire missiles 

 

- 10 man Rubrics - Soul reaper

- 10 Man Rubrics - Soul reaper

- 10 man Rubrics - Soul reaper

 

2000 on the nose. 

 

I know that *technically* beefing up the terminators would be better but paying 450 points for nothing more then 12 boltguns and 3 aspiring sorcerers is.........jarring. And this list really fixes the issue with a 23 point marine, you will ALWAYS get your save, and you will always have a chance at that re-roll, being a 3+/4++ (3++ on tap)  meaning that only really rolling a "2" is the thing you don't want to see.  Statistically I think it was something like 6-7 wounds to kill a single rubricae on average? In that range. Which I believe technically makes them more survivable statistically then Plague marines (or comparable at least) against any weapon you can toss at them barring D. 

 

The Soul Reapers are nice because they give the squad some "bite" aside from culling marines/hordes. While the Scarab Occult missiles are cheap and functional and the unit already has a Level 2 Sorcerer in their midst, and they aren't slouches in combat either so they don't need as much "help" as Rubricae. 

 

Of course termies are far more ridiculous within a maxed Cabal with the stat being like something 20+ wounds (assuming Not ap 1/2) to kill a single Scarab Occult within a maxed War Cabal list. which is obviously an order of magnitude more powerful. 

 

Another way of running this in 2000 that I enjoy is dropping a squad of Rubricae to 5 man, use them as back line objective capping/support/warp charge generation, and then use the extra points to give all the occults missiles/reapers.  I usually find this list performs fairly well as you have enough damage output to handle most things and you still have 3 rolls on whatever charts you want, with *13* rolls on the Tzeentch table, you will get all the spells you want from that table, I find that the tzeentch table in this list is 4/6ths useful. Boon of Mutation and Siphon being the odd men out since this isn't a "grand coven" list technically. 

 

1850 Maxed War Cabal is something vaguely similar but obviously a bit more limited -

 

-Sorcerer leader, Melta bomb

-Sorcerer, Melta bomb

-Sorcerer 

-Sorcerer

 

- Scarab Occult, Hellfire missiles

- Scarab Occult, Hellfire missiles

- Scarab Occult, Hellfire missiles

 

- Rubric Marines, 10 man, soul reaper

- Rubric Marines, 10 man, soul reaper

- Rubric Marines, 5 man

 

Same basic idea, but for 1850. If you wish you can drop down the rubric marines, nix the reapers, and go with the terminators getting duel weapons or bulked out. 

 

For these lists I tend to focus on the Rubricae / Occult and not so much on the sorcery. But you still get substantial casting ability within the list even without Ahriman, though you are obviously 100% correct, barring Magnus no sorcerer in the game comes close to Ahrimans straight damage potential, hes just incredibly hard to use within at 1850 maxed war cabal. 

 

Within the Cabal there are some things we dont need; Vehicles, Prescience, and even allied support. We can basically fill all of these things within the Cabal alone. I shoot for 2000 and 2500 for the Max Cabal. 

 

1850 is doable but limited. and 2000 is usually fine with decent flexibility. Astral Grimoire is a thought as well for a large squad of Rubrics, if your meta has lots of Hordes a Rubric unit with 3-5 flamers wouldnt go amiss with a Grimoire Sorcerer. (or even occult, warp flame rule means nothing if you kill the targets) 

[Charlo]

Okay so... I was thinking the Warpflame host for my demonic core... But why spend all those points on bodies just to poop out psychic flame and sit in cover?

 

Lore stealer host is hilariously cheap and the output of blue horrors is still the same, you just lose one Strength on flicker fire - but last I checked massed S6 is still awesome.

 

The cheapest batteries available for the exiles? I think so!

 

Plus they still become brimstone lol

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I'm thinking of Trying this next saturday against Baneblade led Imperial Guar
Grand Coven
War Cabal 
Ahriman
Ensharhaddon Raiku (Sorcerer level 3 with , Terminator armour, force axe, spell familar and astral grimore)
Rubric Marine Squad Curinur (8, Rhino and melta bombs)
Scarab Occult Squad Ozpin (Heavy Warpflamer)
Scarab Occult Squad Mithrandir (Hellfyre missiles)
2 Legion Vindicators
War coven of the Athenaeum
Zarathustra Suicune (Exalted sorcerer level 3 with spell familiar)
Shallamanser (Level 2 sorcerer in terminator armour with spell familiar)
Sargon (Level Two sorcerer, force axe)
Chekt'aten (Level Two Sorcerer, force staff)
1999pts
Plan is fish for invisibility and if not switch to shriek on all of them, with Sargon joining Ahriman with the Rubrics whilst the rest join the Terminators, with the non coven sorcerers bulking out on Heretech.
Is it okay to post fluff on this one? Wanting to write a short of Zarathustra gathering his students in preperation of this battle :P

[Prot]

Trying out an Exiles based army today. It's kind of a no holds barred group so no idea what I may face. I'm a little apprehensive because I'm still only using Thousand Sons and no Magnus.

 

On that note with the release of the new Tzeentch greater Daemon model is there a realistic expectation that he would be used with Thousand Sons or should I just start looking at low level Daemons?

[Charlo]

No reason he couldn't be. Even just Kairos and some horrors can be a lethal addition in the form of an allied detachment.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Has anyone actually ever used a Warlord other then Ahriman with the exception of Magnus or a maxed out warcabal in smaller games?
He just seems to bring so much more then a generic exalted/sorcerer, and buy the time you gie them gear they are costing close to him and yet te ability to spam witchfyres or have at least one unit infiltrate seems to outclass the cheaper options.

[Charlo]

Pretty much.

 

"This unit of Terminators are now in your grill oh and I just blasted you with 3 screams."

[Minsc]

Ahriman is good no doubt, but he has some severe limitations over a Exalted of similar price.

Ahriman has +1 ML so he has a higher chance of getting a power you actually want, and he can manifest one more power.

He can also spamm Witchfires like no other, and his Warlord Trait is really good if you plan on using it (which you often will in a TS army.)

 

However, he can't take a spell familiar, so while Ahriman has +1 ML, he's actually more unreliable when it comes to manifesting powers than a Exalted.

Ahriman is also pretty poor in combat, since he's stuck with his...I was gonna say force staff, but what he has is actually worse than a force staff since it doesn't hace concussive.

The Exalted on the other hand, can be kitted out to be a real threat in combat due to Seer's Bane (or Black Mace). The Exalted also haft that nifty blast, which can make a dent, even possibly outright destroy a enemy vehicle on turn one.

 

 

 

"This unit of Terminators are now in your grill oh and I just blasted you with 3 screams."

 

It's nice, but it's kinda a one trick pony. I'd say it depends on your gamingclub, but I'd have to infiltrate 18" away most of the time, which isn't that close. Astral Grimoire will do the same, but better. The real strenght comes if you manage to get infiltrate on all 3 of your Scarab-units.

Spamming scream is nice and all as well, but if you one-dice them there's a 50/50 chance you just waste a warpcharge, and if you two-dice them, you're taking WC's from someone else. (which isn't an issue most of the time though.)

I'm personally not all that into Psychic screams either. It's really good vs some units, but most of the time it barely does anything.
The average on 3D6 is 10,5 and most things worth killing usually has Ld9, so it's 1, possibly 2 wounds on average. Ofcourse, if you scream at your opponents honourguard and he rolls 17, then you're allowed to gloat.

[Prot]

My Max-Cabal is typically always using Ahriman from now on it appears.

 

At the end of the day it's very easy for me to make this decision because of the ridiculous stuck with Tzeentch side effect of playing 1K sons. (I still say if you're good enough to be a 1K Sorc, just give us the cruddy Primaris and give us the option to leave the rest to fate.).

 

The extra roll on a chart is just massive, and I agree he's really short on that re-roll because of the lack of Familiar. It's just bizarre and reeks of being a super dated rule set. But regardless, his ML4 and 3rd roll fishing is just really big when you MUST have a certain power. 

 

I didn't realize how big this was and I always thought while playing my Ultra's for the past 2+ years that Tigurius was just 'okay'. It's not till I started playing 1Ksons against some competitive stuff that I realized how much this sucks to not have clearer choices. Even my GK kind of spoiled me because Sanctic is not only pretty darn good, it's easier to get off and easier to select from (wargear).

 

Just the way I look at it is coming off of Grey Knights, and years of Ultramarines with Tiggy, LibCon, Cent-Gate, etc I didn't realize how much more difficult it was for 1K Sons because it didn't really make sense to me. 

 

I'm just being honest here, but even fluff wise, I mean these guys live the dream... they're on a planet that looks like a cross between something Harry Potter and Stephen King dreamed up. The way they were cooking Space Wolves, you never got the feeling these guys had trouble getting a power they needed, or required the assistance of space hippies from the warp to get 'er done. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

My Max-Cabal is typically always using Ahriman from now on it appears.

 

At the end of the day it's very easy for me to make this decision because of the ridiculous stuck with Tzeentch side effect of playing 1K sons. (I still say if you're good enough to be a 1K Sorc, just give us the cruddy Primaris and give us the option to leave the rest to fate.).

 

The extra roll on a chart is just massive, and I agree he's really short on that re-roll because of the lack of Familiar. It's just bizarre and reeks of being a super dated rule set. But regardless, his ML4 and 3rd roll fishing is just really big when you MUST have a certain power. 

 

I didn't realize how big this was and I always thought while playing my Ultra's for the past 2+ years that Tigurius was just 'okay'. It's not till I started playing 1Ksons against some competitive stuff that I realized how much this sucks to not have clearer choices. Even my GK kind of spoiled me because Sanctic is not only pretty darn good, it's easier to get off and easier to select from (wargear).

 

Just the way I look at it is coming off of Grey Knights, and years of Ultramarines with Tiggy, LibCon, Cent-Gate, etc I didn't realize how much more difficult it was for 1K Sons because it didn't really make sense to me. 

 

I'm just being honest here, but even fluff wise, I mean these guys live the dream... they're on a planet that looks like a cross between something Harry Potter and Stephen King dreamed up. The way they were cooking Space Wolves, you never got the feeling these guys had trouble getting a power they needed, or required the assistance of space hippies from the warp to get 'er done. 

 

"Chaos is worse then loyalist counterpart" is sad but true usually. I dont think the "new" units have this issue, but rubrics definitely do, Ahriman does but hes so powerful even with the older rules it kinda makes up for it. 

 

Fluff wise the 1k sons just kinda rock and always have. at least the grand coven, along with the scarab occult and exalteds, are a great step in the right direction ;-)  

 

I also think we can expect to see some major changes in 8th edition. who knows how thats gonna end up. 

[Prot]

Frankly I'm terrified of 8th. I'm looking very forward to the Emperor dying and being reborn, etc, etc, but I don't want to end up selecting a squad of Thousand Sons from the 'forced of evil doers' in the next edition. :)

 

Seriously though, I'm okay with the idea of the Thousand Sons not being the greatest on the table top. But I do think that in many areas their back ground doesn't match their capabilities on the table top. 

It's interesting though because we could be having this conversation for the next 4-5 months then -poof- it's all been flipped upside down. Guess we'll see. I don't want to take this off topic too much. My point more was the idea of not being forced into Daemons to play them, so let me segway into that topic....

 

How do I even start incorporating Tzeentch Daemons into my Thousand Sons without having it become a Tzeentch summoning list?

 

I ordered 3 screamers. But I hear the Chariot is the way to go? I also don't know if a Daemon Prince for Thousand Sons is the best way to go? Or do I bring in a small Daemon CAD first?

[Zodd1888]

I'd recommened getting 22 Horrors and a Tzeentch Herald or few for WC farms. I'd also get a few Screamers like you're already planning (probably 3 - 6) because they are solid AP2 and cool concepts for models.

 

The Daemon Prince I'd roll as TSons CSM for sure. Have him head your Cabal or whatever ans you've got more AP2 and sheer awesome.

 

Chariot is good for the new summon spell and basically a Land Speeder w/ S5 AP3 Template or S9 AP2 Heavy3 users choice.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Frankly I'm terrified of 8th. I'm looking very forward to the Emperor dying and being reborn, etc, etc, but I don't want to end up selecting a squad of Thousand Sons from the 'forced of evil doers' in the next edition.

 

Seriously though, I'm okay with the idea of the Thousand Sons not being the greatest on the table top. But I do think that in many areas their back ground doesn't match their capabilities on the table top. 

It's interesting though because we could be having this conversation for the next 4-5 months then -poof- it's all been flipped upside down. Guess we'll see. I don't want to take this off topic too much. My point more was the idea of not being forced into Daemons to play them, so let me segway into that topic....

 

How do I even start incorporating Tzeentch Daemons into my Thousand Sons without having it become a Tzeentch summoning list?

 

I ordered 3 screamers. But I hear the Chariot is the way to go? I also don't know if a Daemon Prince for Thousand Sons is the best way to go? Or do I bring in a small Daemon CAD first?

 

For Tzeentch Daemons; I own 12 horrors, 6 screamers, a chariot, 3 flamers, and a single herald (using a Age of Sigmar Gaunt Summoner as a stand in cause its cooler) Though admittedly theres plenty of room both in my lists, and my life, for that lovely LOC model coming out soon ;-)   

 

I find this is more then enough for 95% of situations seeing as how I don't spam summoning. The only time I summon is when using Magnus, its built in! (Ill nab a box of brimstones/blues when they come out eventually) 

 

Flamers fix our horde issue, Horrors fix our number/weight of fire issue (And help with warp charges), Screamers fix our tank issue and assist in melee, Chariots help with both hordes and tanks, and heralds give us easy access to divination if you don't want to take a Exalted. 

 

Pretty much "Whatever 1k sons cant do, the Tzeentch daemons fix that" and honestly I think that's why they fall the way they do, they perfectly compliment (#Justasplanned) 

 

I use them as supplementary and they work perfect for what they are. Using 2000 i may drop 400 into daemons. using 1850 or 1500 I will do between 150-300 points in daemons, the remainder goes to the 1k sons proper for whatever formation / CAD I see fit.

 

P.S. - You may have figured it out. I rarely EVER summon, *read; almost never* Magnus the Red being the only exception as he is 650 damn points with a summoning spell built in (flamers/chariot) so yeah ill do it then :p 

[ronin_cse]

When you all say a chariot is the way to go are you saying a herald or an exalted flamer in chariot?

[Sonoftherubric21]

Exalted Flamer usually, the heralds so fragile and the exalteds so good on the chariot. 

[Charlo]

I'd personally never use the WC for summoning unless it was necessary to clinch a game (Or Magnus' Chariots of Fire on a 2+) which is kind of hilarious as MAgnus technically costs like 50 points over the course of a 6 turn game

 

Oh heres one...

 

If you summon Horrors from a Herald in a CAD, are the new horrors then Objective secured, or just nothing as they aren't part of the detachment...?

[Prot]

Summoned and conjured units by default are not obsec.

 

So the first thing to summon is a chariot? And the flamet is better than the herald?

 

I understand that Magnus has a summoning power built in but for a DP what am I looking to summon typically?

[Charlo]

I guess whatever fits the situation:

 

• Do you need bodies and WC? Horrors.
• Do you need AP2, Anti-AV or speed? Screamers.
• Anti-Horde? Flamers.
• Another Caster? Herald on Chariot.
• Balance? - Flaming Chariot with Flamer Herald.

Chariots & Screamers are the mos immediately effective, as you can summon them and then turbo boost for slash attacks or get to firing off that Torrent AP3 Flamer or  1-3 shot Lascannon immediately.

 

I mean, this is coming from a guy who just started looking at Daemons, so I'm sure others can say more too :)

[Sonoftherubric21]

I guess whatever fits the situation:

 

• Do you need bodies and WC? Horrors.
• Do you need AP2, Anti-AV or speed? Screamers.
• Anti-Horde? Flamers.
• Another Caster? Herald on Chariot.
• Balance? - Flaming Chariot with Flamer Herald.

Chariots & Screamers are the mos immediately effective, as you can summon them and then turbo boost for slash attacks or get to firing off that Torrent AP3 Flamer or  1-3 shot Lascannon immediately.

 

I mean, this is coming from a guy who just started looking at Daemons, so I'm sure others can say more too

 

Basically what you just said. This is an incredibly effective list of tools for the 1k sons to tap into.  I find the Sehkmet with a level 3 Prince that summons usually fits the bill pretty well. T6 prince with a 4++ re-rolling 1's and a 3+ re-rolling 1's. 

 

Then he just hogs dice to summon stuff. or at least takes a couple rolls on daemonology.