++ The Brotherhood of Dust - A Thousand Sons Community ++

[Panzer]

It is interesting to see the points and power levels of the Nu marines.

 

Intercessors are PL6 compared to Hellblazers PL8 but HBs are cheaper per model but more expensive weapons.

 

Trying to decern where Rubrics end up points wise.

That's because PL is about the potential strength a unit has. So what it would be if you'd take all the best equipment possible. It doesn't matter what a naked model would cost.

Which is also my problem with the PL system when you care about balance. If you don't max out your unit you gimp yourself compared to another maxed out unit. But this is not the right thread for that topic. :P

[Archaeinox]

I still think we are going to get unique powers for each psyker on their datasheet. Probably why the daemons only have 3 psychic powers in their lores.

[Raven1]

I still think we are going to get unique powers for each psyker on their datasheet. Probably why the daemons only have 3 psychic powers in their lores.

I think your spot on, generic power, faction powers, and psykers powers, probably more for units like demons so psykers can summon them. To cap it off you know the powers or select from the list and can cast equal to your mastery level or some such.

[Archaeinox]

It will be a BIG change going into the game knowing which psyker will have what once you make the list. Even better if you can choose before each game.

[Paladin777]

It used to be like that and I don't think it ever shouldn't have been. I always thought it was really REALLY dumb to make the powers you knew random.

[Archaeinox]

Just a copy of fantasy they tried.. garbage.

[MoGuy]

 

 

I still think we are going to get unique powers for each psyker on their datasheet. Probably why the daemons only have 3 psychic powers in their lores.

 

Agreed. Also: We know that we'll get faction specific powers once GW releases the Codices. I think they'll be just like the Battletomes from AoS, giving us some new detachments, stratagems, artefacts, warlord traits and psychic powers.

[Paladin777]

I just hope that GW doesn't wait too long for our 'battletome'.

[Skerr]

Sounds optimistic on spell selection and i am with you as well. Not that mini mortal wounds is bad but I don't want the aspiring sorcerer to be locked into always taking it every game. It does not make sense.

 

It was great when you could pick your powers, synergies and various strategies were built around them.

 

Granted when I played Eldar i always chose doom and fate but the other powers were kinda underwhelming imo and this trend was seen a lot in other armies also.

 

But rolling can be extremely frustrating. The key though is an attractive base of diverse spells to pick.from..either way I'm glad picking is back as no reason not to build lists that you know powers will compliment, we don't roll randomly for tank guns (though we do pay for them) and powers are just another tool.

[Archaeinox]

From the looks of the Tzeentch Daemon powers, they have:

 

Boon of Change?: roll and get 1 of 3 benefits.

 

Bolt of Change: d6 Mortal Wounds? Make Chaos Spawn for models killed? (remember unlike "damage," Mortal Wounds spill over to single-wound models)

 

Treason of Tzeentch: Something happens that I can't read.

 

It makes perfect sense that each datasheet will detail what each psyker knows. In the case of the Aspiring Sorcerer, he knows the weakened Smite. I bet he can select 1 of the "Thousand Sons Faction" spells, whatever they might be... Remember it might not be much, but you are not required to buy the Index to play the game... You can just roll "simple" with whats on the datasheet.

 

I think its looking great, dudes.

[Skerr]

Sounds great!

[Prot]

Some strange cost observations on Thousand Sons:

 

Scarab Termies are 33 (plus 50 for the Scarab Sorc!)

 

Chaos Termies are 31

 

^That's just weird to me and makes me wonder if Scarabs are special Combi Capable? I'd imagine not, but do they have special ammo? Perhaps all Termies do? Why the 2 point discrepancy?

 

Sorcerer on Bike 130 ! (Okay... sure. Probably for Black Legion/DG?)

 

Sorcerer on Disk 125.

 

Chaos LORD on Disk of Tzeentch 100 (Wow... never thought of Tzeentch Disk users not being Psykers!)

 

Exalted Sorc: 86

 

Exalted Sorc on Disk: 120

 

Sorcerer: 90 (okay now I'm confused)

 

Sorcerer in Terminator armour: 140 (ouch)

 

Sorcerer with Jump Pack 114 (Master 'o the Raptors?!?!)

 

+ EDIT+

Rubrics: 13 points each....

Asp Sorc: 30 (I assume as it is written it is an upgrade to a Rubric cost) 

 

5 Man Rubric inc Sorc = 82 Points * PLUS WARGEAR*

 

5 Man Scarab inc Sorc = 182 Points  *PLUS WARGEAR*

 

 

This begs the question: How much are the bolters? Why is a Scarab 2 points more than a Chaos termie? (What is the difference considering the assumption of no wargear in the costs?)

 

Something else of Note:

Cultists are 5

Tzaangors are 7

 

And of course Named HQ's:

 

Ahriman: 131 (166 on Disk)

Magnus: 415

 

We have no idea if the HQ's are well priced or not. Ahriman at 131 (for comparison) and Typhus is 164

[MoGuy]

 

 

^That's just weird to me and makes me wonder if Scarabs are special Combi Capable? I'd imagine not, but do they have special ammo? Perhaps all Termies do? Why the 2 point discrepancy?

 

Could imagine that the Occult Termis have a better invuln. Or you pay those 2 points for the "All is Dust" special rule. Anyhow, I would imagine the Scarab Occult Termis to be more survivable than vanilla CSM Termis.

 

 

 

Sorcerer with Jump Pack 114 (Master 'o the Raptors?!?!)

 

Just imagine the possibilities! Deepstrike the Sorcerer with the Raptors, cast that movement spell on them and have a pretty much guaranteed charge. Or swap Raptors for Termis etc. :D

[Sonoftherubric21]

I don't believe the aspiring sorcerer is an upgrade, it doesn't say that. 

 

I think those are "these are this cost" Sargent unit upgrades. 

 

At least Ahriman and Magnus are fairly cheap by comparison, this is astounding. 

Tzaagnors are still 7 points a model but if Mark of Tzeentch is a 5++ I could live with that juts fine and use mine. 

 

The *real* head scratcher; Exalted Sorcerers are Very cheap...what the heck does their gear cost?  They are going to be more then sorcerers at max capacity as they are just Sorcerer +1.  (well; used to be) 

[Paladin777]

86 points for an exalted sorcerer but 90 for a regular sorc... I'm confused...

[Raven1]

I'm guessing it will come down to individual points costs of wargear. Otherwise I have no idea.

[Paladin777]

I wonder if they went the other way with the stat-lines than they are now and made the regular sorc more beefy and the exalted more the ultra psychically powerful but physically frail type. I think I could be ok with that.

[Zodd1888]

Its either what Paladin said or it's going to be a restriction of TSons/Tzeentch use for Exalts.

[Prot]

Just an update on the Primarchs:

 

Guilliman comes in at 360. His abilities were highlighted on the WH community page. Wow... he's still pure beast mode.

 

With Magnus at 415, he really -should- be amazing.

[Prot]

I don't believe the aspiring sorcerer is an upgrade, it doesn't say that. 

 

I think those are "these are this cost" Sargent unit upgrades. 

 

At least Ahriman and Magnus are fairly cheap by comparison, this is astounding. 

 

Tzaagnors are still 7 points a model but if Mark of Tzeentch is a 5++ I could live with that juts fine and use mine. 

 

The *real* head scratcher; Exalted Sorcerers are Very cheap...what the heck does their gear cost?  They are going to be more then sorcerers at max capacity as they are just Sorcerer +1.  (well; used to be) 

 

I think you're right... I assumed the Sorc was an upgrade because of the cost, but now I see as listed in most army entries, the squads are usually denoted PLUS Wargear.

 

Exalted Sorcs are a head scratcher. Maybe vanilla Sorcs have more wounds now? Maybe vanilla Sorcs have set wargear, and Exalted Sorcs have options so only their non-wargear cost is reflected in the rules?

 

Agreed on Tzaangors. If "Tzeentch" means 5++ I'll finally be totally happy with them vs Cultists. Darn... I just finished 10 Cultists, but then again they do fill a cheap troop requirement. :)

[Archaeinox]

So exalted with staff is 100.. Ahriman 131.. Please let him be relatively good compared to how good Tiggy is running around on foot currently in 7th

[Skallagoose]

Reason for the differences could be more simple than you guys are thinking...

-exalted may only have one set of spells to choose from

-exalted may not have a pre-determined spell like the sorcerer

-pre-determined spell may be weaker than the sorcerer's spell.

[Sonoftherubric21]

So; I did some math here and I think I have a solid guess for the Rubrics. 

The base cost is 18, I have used the "special issue boltguns" of Sternguard as a basis, these are 3 points each. Bringing a base rubric to 21 points a model.  For those of you who havent seen it; a "special issue boltgun" is 30 inch range, str 4, ap -2.....so its a longer-range inferno bolt. carried by a less-sturdy platform, as the Stern guard come in at a 16 point cost (paying for LD bonus, and extra attack presumably) then buy the special bolter as we would buy our guns. they have longer range, we live alot longer with our 2+/3+/5++ saves. 

So Id say its safe to say rubrics are 21 points each gents. using ANY kind of logic and reason. 

 

Now the Aspiring sorcerer; This leaves us at a solid 30 points + (lets say stave for sake of argument) at 14 points, for 44 points, then we have to look at adding the inferno bolt pistol, Id honestly say 2 points as given its just a pistol version of our bolt weapon, looking at 46 for our Sorcerer. 

Now we sit at a solid and nicely pointed out 130 points, nice and even.  

 

The upgrades I have to toss in some guesswork and dont have anything empirical to work with..... The Warp Flamer (given that a flamer is 9 points) will PROBABLY hit the 11-14 point mark. I dont seem them being to much more then this.  I see the soul reaper being a costly bugger, Probably looking at around maybe 17-20.  As the Assault cannons come out to 21, with the same basic stats with an additional pip of strength. 

 

So my initial guess is that a unit of 10 with a soul reaper is going to be around 240 with 9 rubrics, soul reaper, and an aspiring with stave. 

this is of course some guesswork, along with some assumptions.  But it sure as hell sounds better then 290!!!  And for a much more dangerous unit in general. If its 260 or below I can be happy with that, and it sounds like were on track to hit exactly where we need. 

 

TL;DR, Look at sternguard, their gun is a match for ours. Points are easy to figure past that. We will be fine. 

[Prot]

So exalted with staff is 100.. Ahriman 131.. Please let him be relatively good compared to how good Tiggy is running around on foot currently in 7th

I'm not gonna lie, I'm a bit concerned. Tigurius is phenomenal. And I thought NDK I found his cost in one of the scans. It's nearly unchanged at 136 or similar.

 

I have to admit, it was a small thing but I loved that he was ML4. It wasn't game breaking but showed his, well... mastery of the Warp.

 

Ahriman's cost is seemingly reasonable but imho he should be superior to Tigurius. Tigurius is nearly auto include in most 7th ed competitive lists.

 

 

  

Reason for the differences could be more simple than you guys are thinking...

-exalted may only have one set of spells to choose from

-exalted may not have a pre-determined spell like the sorcerer

-pre-determined spell may be weaker than the sorcerer's spell.

Well this marks the first time I've been accused of not thinking simple -enough-!

 

So if we're comparing a vanilla HQ Sorc to an Exalted Sorc, I think we can agree the Exalted is most likely superior. There is apparently no more real warhead in 40k (like spell familiars, etc) and these point values definitely indicate we may have lost the Silver Tower shot which I really hope we didn't. I found it very fun and fluffy while not game breaking.

 

Otherwise all I can think of is Mastery level differences, but really what does that mean in 8th?

[Skallagoose]

Are we sure marks are getting special rules? AoS doesnt have marks have special rules on most models (characters and some models excluded). What makes us think Tzeentch gives anything other than a keyword? In the Rubric datasheet it didnt have anything in the rules section for it i'm thinking Tzeentch only gives a keyword but maybe a command point is +1 invul for the army (Keyword Tsons)