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[incinerator950]

I dunno, M34 sounds too far off from Honsou.

 

Right, the can of worms is ending here, I'm not continuing the conversation on battle attrition and ressuply.

[Iron_Within]

On the note of Iron Warrior attrition. Nothing has been said that the Iron Warriors don't create new Legionaires. Quite the opposite, e.g. Honsou and plenty of other fluff suggesting that new aspirants are created all the time. Iron Warriors Geneseed was particularly strong and they had a high success rate of implantation and while not represented on the tabletop, there are still Apothecaries out there.

 

IMO creating new marines will be happening, it might be a more chaotic process, but attrition in this conventional manner is explained.

 

There is another thing though: the Warp. The Warp renders time and even death meaningless, in the Daemon Codex an Ork Warboss dies and is reborn every day for the whims of the daemonworld. There are plot hooks of time displacements and time travel all over the place (there is a whole Inquisitor Ordo dedicated to it). So the idea that Iron Warriors dying in the Eye being an absolute is balderdash. There are possibly Lords out there named "the Undying" because they kept getting killed and a different version appears from a different stretch of time (like time has intersected in a knot and there are two version of him) or there are alternate versions of the same person. Hell there could be marine  dissappearing and reappearing in time all over the place.

 

In essence the death of Iron Warriors doesn't mean the Legion is wounded, not at all. 

[incinerator950]

Sorry, just my military background speaking out of context. I understand from a background perspective, but from a logic perspective, wasting your own men when legion repleneshment is sporadic, unpredictable, and sometimes counterproductive when Warbands splinter, join the bl, or go completely rogue is rather stupid. Also, the ressurection of beings is not reliable, and that instance was through Khorne reviving a Khornate Warband and an Ork horde to mutually destroy each other over and over again. There are very few instances to gloss over the exceptions. You die, you almost always stay dead unless someone rebuilds you or wills you back to life.

[Kol Saresk]

On the one hand, I can see Incinerator's point. The way we're told the Loyalists do things with picking ten to twenty aspirants and having a full implantation rate of only two or three, a Loyalist Chapter should have severe trouble rebuilding heavy losses without seriously upping its game.

 

The only way this is even remotely alluded to in writings is when it calls the loss of a Company a "severe loss". Of course, with this rate, even a whole squad should be a severe loss.

 

On the other hand, you get the Traitors who from the three instances of picking up recruits that I can immediately think of, are more concerned with quantity over quality and have no real problem of being able to create and implant Marines. The only one of those three that was a failure would be the daemoncubala because as written, the Newborn was the only successful subject. Everything else either died or became an Unfleshed.

[incinerator950]

Even the old fashion way is still unpredictable. The IW had one of the best Geneseeds for implantation, but you're talking a pointless waste of men who are already trained and experienced. I can understand and expect battlefield losses, but meat grinding just to "cull the ranks" is hilariously bad writing and inneffective. Weeding training aspirants is not the same as having your own men kill each other while you're kicking back on your couch snickering.

[Kol Saresk]

True. Implantation may be a negligible problem, but throwing away full Astartes for no reason is just as it sounds.

[Iron Skull Mask]

The thing is, with the scale of the warfare and destruction in 40k, it's hard to believe that anyone can replenish their losses except maybe for Orks and Tyranids. I think this is simply something about 40k that does not really stand against cold logic. Anyway, in regard to the IW incident it is only speculation that Perturabo really initiated the civil war as a purge. And even if he did, he's a mad daemon primarch and we're talking about chaos here. The IW were definitely described as being able to manufacture new Space Marines, and I don't think they are as picky about new recruits as loyalists. I mean, the Newborn was described as a complete psycho wrapped in someone elses skin. I think someone also already mentioned the thing about time in the eye, so the process might be much quicker at certain worlds in the eye than it is in real space.

[Nehekhare]

"Perturabo throws men at walls. If the Araakites so much as thought a wall he would pelt it with our legionaries as if there were no other way."

-Rogal Dorn

 

you two sound an awful lot like this.

 

Your fallacy is thinking of Astartes as though they were not a (plentyful) ressource like anything else. Death in the impersonal and uncaring meatgrinder of siege warfare is what an Iron Warrior is mass-produced for. We're not Ultramarines with their shining medals and fancy notions of personal achievement. To be superior to this kind of vanity, an Astartes of the IV. Legion must be aware at all times that he has but a singular purpose, which is the destruction of the enemy, and that he can and will be replaced when his ability to fulfill that purpose has expired. There is no room for individual attachment. From iron cometh strength.  

 

 

p.s.: the unfleshed were a by-product. Those that made the transition were granted skin harvested from the human population.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Nehekhare

[incinerator950]

The thing is, with the scale of the warfare and destruction in 40k, it's hard to believe that anyone can replenish their losses except maybe for Orks and Tyranids. I think this is simply something about 40k that does not really stand against cold logic. Anyway, in regard to the IW incident it is only speculation that Perturabo really initiated the civil war as a purge. And even if he did, he's a mad daemon primarch and we're talking about chaos here. The IW were definitely described as being able to manufacture new Space Marines, and I don't think they are as picky about new recruits as loyalists. I mean, the Newborn was described as a complete psycho wrapped in someone elses skin. I think someone also already mentioned the thing about time in the eye, so the process might be much quicker at certain worlds in the eye than it is in real space.

I expect Chaos astarte production regardless of its method to be haphazard. The point standing is the logic behind human repleneshment is a joke. It's not as bad as some factions, but you have to draw the line between the running joke of super soldiers and cannon fodder, and spending them like toilet paper is one of the turnoffs about this faction.

 

It stopped being cold and calculating and went full twirly mustache.

[Kol Saresk]

p.s.: the unfleshed were a by-product. Those that made the transition were granted skin harvested from the human population.

But as far as was mentioned, the Newborn is the only success. Which makes the ratio like one out of forty. And that's not even counting those that didn't survive. You're trading speed over efficiency.

[Iron_Within]

I'm not going to try and argue against bad writing, there is no way around it, there is plenty.

 

That said though.

 

Assuming that all Chaos production is haphazard is fallacy IMO, it's been demonstrated in several Black Library novels (Siege of Castellax for one) that Chaos forces are perfectly capable of manufacturing processes equal to the Imperium; it tends to be more brutal and utterly given over to success of the task though. I would assume this is the case with new Aspirants. In the Iron Warriors case, I would assume a conquered world would have male children taken wholesale to be Aspirants whether they like it or not. It was suggested in a piece of fluff that new aspirants among loyalists is around 1 in 100 success rate and the traitors aim it be 1 in 1000. While this sounds ludicrous, about 10% of modern earth is male children with a population of 7 billion with a hive world is between 1 hundred and 5 hundred billion. Scaling up Earth population to Hive world size even assuming you wipe out 90% of the population, you'd be left with between 1000 and 5000 new Iron Warriors from the culling. From a single Hive World among millions of worlds. Making sense of it just doesn't work.

 

Similarly attempting to apply modern military logic (hell, any logic) to the setting. Even assuming that the Iron Warriors are a military force like today is an error IMO. Iron Warriors operate like tribal forces of the dark ages under chieftain (to gloss over a lot), even that isn't accurate as it is a romanticized/bastardised version of it who are all ultimately answerable to Perturabo (when he chooses to and isn't playing with toy Titans). IW troops are loyal to the leader by force of personality and little else. Having 5000 warriors and 2000 are of questionable loyalty is not as good as 3000 troops whose loyalty is undeniable. Couple that with the esoteric nature of chaos; killing those 2000 might give other powers that those 2000 could never bring, the loyalty of a greater daemon and its hordes for example. Also, if a Leader stops listening to Perturabo do you think he will care if the leaders subordinates knew about it? That's not his personality, he will destroy the leader, any loyal to him and have other warbands absorb the rest. And that's when he notices.

 

Being a Daemon Primarch means that they are bound by the whims of the chaos gods to one extent or another, and so utterly insane by our standards. Look at Betrayel (SPOILERS, well not really, but kind of) when the now Daemon Primarch Angron demand 300 slaves be killed to make him a throne of skulls, it makes no real logical sense, you've cost yourself 300 in manpower for no gain in logical terms.

 

Essentially, everything is quite abstract and fluid to allow for cool story telling in the setting. That doesn't excuse bad writing though.

[Vesper]

With the recent opening of the Call of Chaos VII. I decided to start a new army based on the Iron Warriors, the "Steel Brethren", a warband who participated in the Siege of Vraks. I still do not have any fluff thought, as the event goes by and begins to have painted miniatures, I will write something. 

 

So this is the color scheme:

 

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u573/mandaloriano/Steel%20Brethren/Steel_Brethren_Marine_zps6fae99b9.jpg

 

New fluff about them in IA13.

They used to be IW, but left or were expelled following a vast civil war called the Dispute of Iron (C. 600-730.M34). The war was apparently started by Perturabo himself who wanted to.weed out the weak and unworthy from his scions.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Vesper

[Warsmith Aznable]

If Perturabo instigated a civil war to "cull the weak" it would have been more about the quality of Warsmiths rather than individual IW space marines, IMO. His interest would likely be on the Iron Warriors as a "brand" with the Warsmiths as "franchisees." So after a period of growth he engineers the civil war as a shakedown to flush out who meets his standards as opposed to who has been riding the name after getting lucky.

[incinerator950]

Except that doesn't happen like Daala assassinating half of the Imperial Moff's at a meeting. That is a Faction wide open war between Warbands throughout the Legion. Edited October 22, 2014 by incinerator950

[Vesper]

If Perturabo instigated a civil war to "cull the weak" it would have been more about the quality of Warsmiths rather than individual IW space marines, IMO. His interest would likely be on the Iron Warriors as a "brand" with the Warsmiths as "franchisees." So after a period of growth he engineers the civil war as a shakedown to flush out who meets his standards as opposed to who has been riding the name after getting lucky.

Just stating what's infered in the book. It looks like a major event for the Iron Warriors, though. Here's the actual quote :

 

Its cause hidden to the eyes of the Imperium, a vast civil war erupts on the Daemon world of Medrengard and rapidly spreads to the other domains of the Iron Warriors. Acient pacts of fealty and alliance are called upon and scores of Chaos Space Marines warbands, Daemon cults and Traitor Titan Legions are drawn into the maelstrom of relentless battle. This bitter feud is accredited as creating several sub-factions of the Iron Warriors still active to the present day, such as the Steel Brethren, while utterly destroying others such as the Shattered Tower. As abruptly as it was begun the war suddently ended, leading some to believe that the conflict had been carried out according the the Daemon-Primarch Perturabo's desing in order to weed out the weak and the unworthy from his scions.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Vesper

[chaplain belisarius]

Good topic. Got a question. How fluffy is it to take a daemon prince? I really like the model and he is fun and effective on the battlefield too!

 

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance!

[Iron Skull Mask]

 

I expect Chaos astarte production regardless of its method to be haphazard. The point standing is the logic behind human repleneshment is a joke. It's not as bad as some factions, but you have to draw the line between the running joke of super soldiers and cannon fodder, and spending them like toilet paper is one of the turnoffs about this faction.

 

It stopped being cold and calculating and went full twirly mustache.

 

Well, we're talking Chaos here, so who knows for what reasons Perturabo did this - IF he did. On the other hand, whatever Dorn or others might say about the IW is simply vile propaganda. I don't get the impression that the IW throw away Astartes as a general principle - they may use the hide of killed enemy Astartes as toilet paper, though. If you look at Storm of Iron, or Siege of Castellax, the IW always try to get the maximum out of their ressources, meaning they spend fodder first and only use Astartes at the right moment. Of course, if the gain is big enough, Astartes are ordered on suicide missions as well, as is only fitting the IW's pragmatic nature.

 

 

Good topic. Got a question. How fluffy is it to take a daemon prince? I really like the model and he is fun and effective on the battlefield too!

 

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance!

 

There's no problem with using a daemon prince with the IW. There are several IW DP in the fluff. There's even fluff that shows the IW using daemons as tools and fodder. So yeah, a lot of things are possible nowadays. You still probably won't find scores of marked IW, or cult troops in their ranks (meaning Plaguemarines, Berserkers and such).

Edited October 22, 2014 by Iron Skull Mask

[chaplain belisarius]

Thanks! I'm looking at either black legion or is. I don't like cult troops or gribbliness. Want my army to be a hardened,veteran force with no cult troops,mutations etc.

 

Odd question but in the new rules can you take whatever you like? As I have an foc in mind but don't know if its OK.

 

Sorry for all the questions! Returning player.

[Iron Skull Mask]

Thanks! I'm looking at either black legion or is. I don't like cult troops or gribbliness. Want my army to be a hardened,veteran force with no cult troops,mutations etc.

 

Odd question but in the new rules can you take whatever you like? As I have an foc in mind but don't know if its OK.

 

Sorry for all the questions! Returning player.

 

If that's what you're looking for, look no further! Yes, nowadays you can use everything from the codex, there are no 0-1 restrictions or rules that say IW can't take this or that anymore. You can even kick the foc out the door and play unbound (literally anything that has 40k rules). You should talk to your opponent about this before the game, though.

[Nehekhare]

one might add that obliterators are exeptionally fluffy for IW forces and that the old Index Astartes list made an exeption from the undivided only/no cult troops - rule for 0-1 Khorne Berzerkers as an elite choice. Anything daemonic/mutated is available, but would propably turned into (daemonic) machinery (i.e. cyborg possessed, robots counts-as 1k Sons, etc.).

[chaplain belisarius]

Thanks. Opened a separate thread regarding foc.

[Warsmith Aznable]

 

If Perturabo instigated a civil war to "cull the weak" it would have been more about the quality of Warsmiths rather than individual IW space marines, IMO. His interest would likely be on the Iron Warriors as a "brand" with the Warsmiths as "franchisees." So after a period of growth he engineers the civil war as a shakedown to flush out who meets his standards as opposed to who has been riding the name after getting lucky.

Just stating what's infered in the book. It looks like a major event for the Iron Warriors, though. Here's the actual quote :

 

Its cause hidden to the eyes of the Imperium, a vast civil war erupts on the Daemon world of Medrengard and rapidly spreads to the other domains of the Iron Warriors. Acient pacts of fealty and alliance are called upon and scores of Chaos Space Marines warbands, Daemon cults and Traitor Titan Legions are drawn into the maelstrom of relentless battle. This bitter feud is accredited as creating several sub-factions of the Iron Warriors still active to the present day, such as the Steel Brethren, while utterly destroying others such as the Shattered Tower. As abruptly as it was begun the war suddently ended, leading some to believe that the conflict had been carried out according the the Daemon-Primarch Perturabo's desing in order to weed out the weak and the unworthy from his scions.

 

 

I did read that. Here is my line of reasoning:

 

1. Weak Chaos Space Marines inevitably die in the performance of regular duties anyway.

2. Individual Chaos Space Marines are treated like chattel by Chaos Lords, who often absorb the surviving rank and file of defeated warbands.

3. Warbands are ultimately a reflection of their current leaders, who are ultimately responsible for their performance.

 

Assassinating individual leaders would work on a smaller scale, but if he wanted to purge the entire Legion (of perceived weakness or complacency) it would be easier (for him) to push the feuding, jealous, and ambitious leaders toward violence and let them sort out the end result among each other.

Edited October 22, 2014 by -Max-

[incinerator950]

Regardless its still refreshing that one Legion has some indirect association with its Primarch.

[Gree]

I expect Chaos astarte production regardless of its method to be haphazard. The point standing is the logic behind human repleneshment is a joke. It's not as bad as some factions, but you have to draw the line between the running joke of super soldiers and cannon fodder, and spending them like toilet paper is one of the turnoffs about this faction.

 

It stopped being cold and calculating and went full twirly mustache.

Yes, I personally would agree with much of that. I think that that sort of thing probably fits the Orks or Fantasy Skaven better. That sort of thing never really fit the Chaos Marines to my mind, with Astartes in general being a valuable resource that is hard to replace, especially so for Chaos Marines who often lack the supply lines and unmutated geneseed of the loyalists.

 

At least for me, I always saw the Iron Warriors as more pragmatic seigemasters rather than pointless attritionists.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Gree

[incinerator950]

It was loyalist stigma with the heresy that painted them as mere attritionists. Amazing siege fighters and having the largest amount of ammo and ordnance, but they had a high spendature of casualties in some of the bloodiest grindout battles.

 

Unfortunately that is war, the cost of fighting brutal heavy engagements is a heavy cost of lives. It's when you start wasting your men pointlessly as an expendature after the Crusade, Heresy, the Legion wars, demon attacks, that civil war seems a tad off.

 

Anyway sorry for derailing the thread. Your primarch still operates behind the scenes and your Legion still exists in more of an extended capacity. Which is awesome, I may be coming home.

Edited October 23, 2014 by incinerator950