BA Today

[Charlo]

I started out collecting Talons for HH but then decided that I just can't give up on the IXth for anything and traded all my talons models for Calth boxes and a leviathan dread. Besides Sanguinius for 30k is going to be awesome!! and i have a stellar paint scheme i want to use and it fits 30k better I think. My urge to play 30k though is definitely on hold, 7th ed rules are like nails on a chalkboard right now.

Talons was the first 30k army I could actually settle on, after some flirtation with the 14th legion.

 

Fully expect to go hard on the 9th when Angelus arrives.

[Spagunk]

After a very humiliating defeat today, I decided that I'm going to stop playing till our codex comes out. The power level spiked a bit too hard with the new codex and it's just a bit ridiculous.

 

Specifically, hitting an entire UM gunline (24 some odd VanVets/Sanguinary Guard) and basically only getting 9 of his while having the entire assault wiped in one turn of shooting. Also, the person had started with 7 command points (after spending 2 for a chapter master upgrade) but through the UM trait for reclaiming command points, he managed more like 12-14 command points total in the game. It's too much at the moment.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Spagunk

[Thoridon]

After a very humiliating defeat today, I decided that I'm going to stop playing till our codex comes out. The power level spiked a bit too hard with the new codex and it's just a bit ridiculous.

 

 

 

Rather than not playing, we're sticking with the Indices until more factions have their Codex.

 

I could run my Codex Marine units with their new stuff but that would be unfair against a Tyranid player at this point. Hopefully the lesser played factions don't have to wait too long.

[Spagunk]

 

After a very humiliating defeat today, I decided that I'm going to stop playing till our codex comes out. The power level spiked a bit too hard with the new codex and it's just a bit ridiculous.

 

 

 

Rather than not playing, we're sticking with the Indices until more factions have their Codex.

 

I could run my Codex Marine units with their new stuff but that would be unfair against a Tyranid player at this point. Hopefully the lesser played factions don't have to wait too long.

 

 

That's cool but I don't have that luxury I'm afraid.  

 

Also I didn't know they removed the one per army restrictions on vindcare assassins. Had two of them take out my warlord in one round of shooting.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Spagunk

[bc99]

After a very humiliating defeat today, I decided that I'm going to stop playing till our codex comes out. The power level spiked a bit too hard with the new codex and it's just a bit ridiculous.

 

Specifically, hitting an entire UM gunline (24 some odd VanVets/Sanguinary Guard) and basically only getting 9 of his while having the entire assault wiped in one turn of shooting. Also, the person had started with 7 command points (after spending 2 for a chapter master upgrade) but through the UM trait for reclaiming command points, he managed more like 12-14 command points total in the game. It's too much at the moment.

 

May I ask how many VV and SG did you have when you hit his line?

 

Sounds like you went up against the current best shooty army.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Yeah so far my general impression is similar to that of 7th edition... small elite-ish forces can be good against other small elite-ish forces but against weight of fire or numbers they still suck or at best struggle.

 

I've done well against marines a few times now, but everything else has taken me to the cleaners.

 

GW has clearly been at a loss with how to handle BA for a while now... even the most recent "fixes" (Angel's Blade and the Index1) have left us out of the upper tiers. I honestly don't believe that anyone in their studio actually plays Blood Angels.  In a vacuum 10 Sanguinary Guard with several buff characters really IS as great as FLG say it is... but when you realize you've spent half of your points on just that, and they get shot to heck first turn or just do little to nothing all game... eh anyway.

 

The good news is they [GW] seem to be listening, as long as they stop listening to FLG, we might be ok. The clearest sign of hope I've seen so far is that they dropped the punchy dread in Codex:SM down in points quite a lot.

[Spagunk]

 

After a very humiliating defeat today, I decided that I'm going to stop playing till our codex comes out. The power level spiked a bit too hard with the new codex and it's just a bit ridiculous.

 

Specifically, hitting an entire UM gunline (24 some odd VanVets/Sanguinary Guard) and basically only getting 9 of his while having the entire assault wiped in one turn of shooting. Also, the person had started with 7 command points (after spending 2 for a chapter master upgrade) but through the UM trait for reclaiming command points, he managed more like 12-14 command points total in the game. It's too much at the moment.

 

May I ask how many VV and SG did you have when you hit his line?

 

Sounds like you went up against the current best shooty army.

 

 

After failing my first charge,I ended up with something like 18 VanVets (my 10 man assault marines did their meat shield job), 3 Sanguinary guard and the Sanguard Ancient. So maybe 22 total, not 24.

[Indefragable]

Yeah so far my general impression is similar to that of 7th edition... small elite-ish forces can be good against other small elite-ish forces but against weight of fire or numbers they still suck or at best struggle.

 

I've done well against marines a few times now, but everything else has taken me to the cleaners.

 

GW has clearly been at a loss with how to handle BA for a while now... even the most recent "fixes" (Angel's Blade and the Index1) have left us out of the upper tiers. I honestly don't believe that anyone in their studio actually plays Blood Angels. In a vacuum 10 Sanguinary Guard with several buff characters really IS as great as FLG say it is... but when you realize you've spent half of your points on just that, and they get shot to heck first turn or just do little to nothing all game... eh anyway.

 

The good news is they [GW] seem to be listening, as long as they stop listening to FLG, we might be ok. The clearest sign of hope I've seen so far is that they dropped the punchy dread in Codex:SM down in points quite a lot.

^ this.

 

 

40,000x this.

[LutherMax]

Yeah that about sums it up. Edited August 8, 2017 by LutherMax

[Indefragable]

Delayed reaction:

 

Blood Chalice wording:

Hidden Content

BA Infantry and Bikers increase their Strength characteristic by 1 whilst they are within 6" of any Blood Chalice.

 

(Italics added for emphasis)

 

So...does that mean you increase the Strength first, then any effects of weapons? So Power Fists/et all would be S10 instead of S9? ...Mephy would be S12 instead of S11, et

 

The 7th Ed BRB pretty explicitly laid out the order of operations for stuff like this, but I don't remember seeing that in 8th.

 

For whatever reason the phrasing of this one makes me take note.

[Jolemai]

Came up already. The rulebook states that it works as previous - BRB page 175.

[Booley]

Delayed reaction:

 

Blood Chalice wording:

Hidden Content

BA Infantry and Bikers increase their Strength characteristic by 1 whilst they are within 6" of any Blood Chalice.

 

(Italics added for emphasis)

 

So...does that mean you increase the Strength first, then any effects of weapons? So Power Fists/et all would be S10 instead of S9? ...Mephy would be S12 instead of S11, et

 

The 7th Ed BRB pretty explicitly laid out the order of operations for stuff like this, but I don't remember seeing that in 8th.

 

For whatever reason the phrasing of this one makes me take note.

 

Power fists should be s10. First thing in the designers commentary, work out any characteristic modifiers (multiplying before adding) before subsequently using any weapon modifiers (again multiplying before adding)

 

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

 

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?

A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by the weapon’s Strength characteristic. For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.

[Spagunk]

 

Delayed reaction:

 

Blood Chalice wording:

Hidden Content

BA Infantry and Bikers increase their Strength characteristic by 1 whilst they are within 6" of any Blood Chalice.

 

(Italics added for emphasis)

 

So...does that mean you increase the Strength first, then any effects of weapons? So Power Fists/et all would be S10 instead of S9? ...Mephy would be S12 instead of S11, et

 

The 7th Ed BRB pretty explicitly laid out the order of operations for stuff like this, but I don't remember seeing that in 8th.

 

For whatever reason the phrasing of this one makes me take note.

 

Power fists should be s10. First thing in the designers commentary, work out any characteristic modifiers (multiplying before adding) before subsequently using any weapon modifiers (again multiplying before adding)

 

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

 

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?

A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by the weapon’s Strength characteristic. For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.

 

 

HOWEVER, page 175 (sidebar) of the BRB indicates the order of operation is multiplication/division first, then addition and subtraction. I know the design notes say one thing but the Rule book has an very obvious rule in place.

[LutherMax]

 

 

Delayed reaction:

Blood Chalice wording:

Hidden Content

BA Infantry and Bikers increase their Strength characteristic by 1 whilst they are within 6" of any Blood Chalice.

(Italics added for emphasis)

So...does that mean you increase the Strength first, then any effects of weapons? So Power Fists/et all would be S10 instead of S9? ...Mephy would be S12 instead of S11, et

The 7th Ed BRB pretty explicitly laid out the order of operations for stuff like this, but I don't remember seeing that in 8th.

For whatever reason the phrasing of this one makes me take note.

 

 

Power fists should be s10. First thing in the designers commentary, work out any characteristic modifiers (multiplying before adding) before subsequently using any weapon modifiers (again multiplying before adding)

 

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?

A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by the weapon’s Strength characteristic. For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.

 

HOWEVER, page 175 (sidebar) of the BRB indicates the order of operation is multiplication/division first, then addition and subtraction. I know the design notes say one thing but the Rule book has an very obvious rule in place.

It's still multiplication first, but you resolve anything affecting the Strength characteristic of the model itself before the effect of weapons.

 

So Model (multiplication/division and then addition/subtraction)

 

Then Weapon (multiplication/division and then addition/subtraction)

[Spagunk]

 

 

HOWEVER, page 175 (sidebar) of the BRB indicates the order of operation is multiplication/division first, then addition and subtraction. I know the design notes say one thing but the Rule book has an very obvious rule in place.

It's still multiplication first, but you resolve anything affecting the Strength characteristic of the model itself before the effect of weapons.

 

So Model (multiplication/division and then addition/subtraction)

 

Then Weapon (multiplication/division and then addition/subtraction)

 

 

Is this only from the dev article or is there something in the book that says this?

Edited August 9, 2017 by Spagunk

[LutherMax]

 

 

HOWEVER, page 175 (sidebar) of the BRB indicates the order of operation is multiplication/division first, then addition and subtraction. I know the design notes say one thing but the Rule book has an very obvious rule in place.

It's still multiplication first, but you resolve anything affecting the Strength characteristic of the model itself before the effect of weapons.

So Model (multiplication/division and then addition/subtraction)

Then Weapon (multiplication/division and then addition/subtraction)

Is this only from the dev article or is there something in the book that says this?

From the Designer's Commentary. A very specific example is given of how the rules are designed to work, quoted up the page there ^

 

An S3 model has his strength doubled by one psychic power and reduced by one by another. The doubling is done first, then the -1 resulting in him or her having S5.

 

Then (and only then) is the x2 of his or her power first applied resulting in S10.

 

To give a BA specific example, Priest gives +1 for (generally) S5. THEN, Fist gives x2 for S10.

 

 

The wording in the rule book doesn't really cover the 'model before weapon' thing - an unfortunate omission. Hence the need for the clarification in the Designer's Commentary.

Edited August 9, 2017 by LutherMax

[Panzer]

Uhm no clue where to post it, but I've read the White Dwarf and it doesn't seem like regular Marines could be turned into Primaris (or at least not that well).

They actually gave an order of the implants and at which age they are ideally added. Two of the three Primaris ones are supposed to be added at age ~12 and only the third (which is the near-death boost one from Cawl) a good deal later.

 

So yeah, seems very unlikely that any Characters will become a Primaris version of their selfs and if GW ever decides "now is the time of Primaris and Space Marines are history" then that would also probably mean we'd have to say goodbye to Mephiston&Co.

 

Not sure what to think about that tbh.

Note: I don't think such a thing would happen anytime soon tho. 10+ years from now on would be the earliest I'd expect something like that.

[Spagunk]

 

 

Is this only from the dev article or is there something in the book that says this?

From the Designer's Commentary. A very specific example is given of how the rules are designed to work, quoted up the page there ^

 

An S3 model has his strength doubled by one psychic power and reduced by one by another. The doubling is done first, then the -1 resulting in him or her having S5.

 

Then (and only then) is the x2 of his or her power first applied resulting in S10.

 

To give a BA specific example, Priest gives +1 for (generally) S5. THEN, Fist gives x2 for S10.

 

 

The wording in the rule book doesn't really cover the 'model before weapon' thing - an unfortunate omission. Hence the need for the clarification in the Designer's Commentary.

 

 

Definitely going to be a hard sell to a lot of people. No clue why this wouldn't be in the FAQ since it is actually super important.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Is this only from the dev article or is there something in the book that says this?

From the Designer's Commentary. A very specific example is given of how the rules are designed to work, quoted up the page there ^

 

An S3 model has his strength doubled by one psychic power and reduced by one by another. The doubling is done first, then the -1 resulting in him or her having S5.

 

Then (and only then) is the x2 of his or her power first applied resulting in S10.

 

To give a BA specific example, Priest gives +1 for (generally) S5. THEN, Fist gives x2 for S10.

 

 

The wording in the rule book doesn't really cover the 'model before weapon' thing - an unfortunate omission. Hence the need for the clarification in the Designer's Commentary.

 

 

Definitely going to be a hard sell to a lot of people. No clue why this wouldn't be in the FAQ since it is actually super important.

 

I honestly don't even know why a "Designers Commentary" even exists since most of the things are things that should be in the FAQ in the first place.

[apologist]

Today, I painted my second Blood Angel inspired by the army from WD139. There was... a bit of a gap (of twenty years or so) in between.

 

Brother Engel

 

Sergeant Raphael

[Jolemai]

Something's happening at the start of September...

[LutherMax]

Definitely going to be a hard sell to a lot of people. No clue why this wouldn't be in the FAQ since it is actually super important.

Yeah, I know what you mean... The Designer's Commentary is an official document though, so I don't see how anyone could argue against what's explicitly written there in black and white.

 

I'm already groaning under the amount of documents we need though...

[Arkangilos]

I remember when everyone was saying this edition would be document light XD

 

I think all this is just a result of unnecessary rule lawyering.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Well the good news is they are going to release that "Chapter Approved" book with all of the fixes in one place.

[LutherMax]

Well the good news is they are going to release that "Chapter Approved" book with all of the fixes in one place.

Which is great! But it won't be free, because it (rather shrewdly) contains new stuff too!

 

I'm not normally one to be so cynical, or grumble about such things, I just wish they could deliver the promised simplicity.

 

If they went fully digital, you'd only need the rule book and codex, and errata could be handled via updates. Make it subscription based and profit margin is maintained.