[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Theredknight]

Yes, I plan to outflank with the veterans and dreadnoughts. I was tempted to put the palatines in a rhino to outflank too, but then it wouldn't be until t3assault. This way they can assault t2 hopefully.

 

I re read the rule for shriekers earlier, the way it's worded is any character or unit is equipped with a sonic shrieker gains +1 initiative. 'A' being key here.

 

Meaning eidolon in an assault squad are actually initiative 5. With eidolon being initiative 6 and 7 in a challenge! So I'm tempted to swap out the blades for these, 3 pwr swords, and a spear sgt.

 

The champ would be good buffing the unit of tacs I intend to push up. All have additional ccw there.

 

I am tempted to drop the executioners, and use the points to fund a flanking t2 javelin or attack bikes.

[Theredknight]

So I have been thinking about our units, palatine blades and phoenix guard.

I know phoenix guard are probably the worst and some of the most over costed terminator units in the game, personally Id only use them in big apoc games. Their only saving grace is power spears.

 

A friend chucked an idea around about attaching a forge Lord with rad grenades to them.

 

Now palatine blades are cheaper at this, and you could arm up 5 or 6 with spears.

Attach eidolon

Attach forgelord (maybe 2 flamer Servs)

Possibly attach chaplain.

Both have spears

 

You could drop them upfield in a kharbydis, the str 6 launchers should pin squads or open some armour.

 

On the charge you are getting hits on ws5, 26 str 6 attacks at ap2. And eidolons 5 thunder hammer attacks first. Re rolling. And as the enemy is reduced to str 3, you are insta killing any tough 2 wound models on 2s.youvare likely to annihilate a squad of terminators or most things before you suffer wounds back.

This costs around 900pts.

 

You could try a smaller squad to fit in a dreadclaw maybe.

A dreadclaw and 7blades with spears, and hqs are about 690.

These won't kill mass tac squads, but you shouldn't be using them for this. They are a scalpel, and will surgically remove a unit from the board.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Theredknight

[Caillum]

How are the Palatine Blades striking at Strength 6? They're only Strength 5 on the charge, aren't they? Unfortunately, unless I'm missing something, you won't get Instant Death. Still, it will rip through 2+ save units! :)

[Theredknight]

Haha your completely right, damn my late night optimism!!!

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

Theredknight, regardless of how you reread it, it's pretty obvious that FW don't actually understand the rules they're writing. The wording on "unit" is completely different on other rules which affect units (i.e Hit and Run, Crusader etc), and is a complete miswording.

 

Don't be "that guy".

Sorry what do you mean by 'that guy' exactly?

I re read it because caustic mentioned before and got me thinking.

I always took it as the model gains the advantage, turns out it isn't as it states 'a unit' does..

Agree that fw seem to have aways to go with wording on some things. Like as you say the crusader rule and a few others. Seems now they have taken the 'discuss with your gaming group' approach but that's why you email them lol

its states that a unit equipped with Sonic Shriekers gains the benefit. Not a unit containing one or more models with a Sonic Shrieker.

 

Per RAW, the unit isn't equipped with them, a model is.

[Theredknight]

So has anyone been using ec lately?

I played world eaters the other day and attempted to mesh reavers into them.

With eidolon in a unit of 15, it can be devastating I think. However rolling 3 on your charge range doesn't help when your 5 away.

Then counter charged by rampagers and 2 Tac squads and Khârn just ended them.

 

As before vindi laser destroyer with machine spirit sniped s load of atmour, blasted a contemptor and got me first blood ( I took a hp though) all his armour and contemptors (3) apart from a hidden Spartan was knocked out by t3.

At the end he was trying to snipe a lone apothecary there wasn't much to shoot at.

 

Deredeo did pretty well glanced up some armoyr and dreads too.

 

Then rounded off by a zm game. Tac support squads with volkite chargers are brutal!

[Deus Mortis]

I have been, although I haven't had a game against another 30k army in about 12 months. I've been fighting 40k armies plenty, but no 30k.

 

I've been doing a lot of work painting up stuff I had left over, 2 veterans and a Scorpius. Next up one of those pew-pew vindicators for sniping heavy tanks.

 

Another thing that I don't know if anyone else has noticed (with regards to the Maru Skara) is that you can give Outflank to an Apothecarion detachment and then each Apothecary can give Outflank to each unit they join. It's not game changing, but it's certainly interesting. Outflanking 10 man plasma support squads seems like a good Hidden Blade (or part of a Hidden Blade), no?

[Theredknight]

I have been, although I haven't had a game against another 30k army in about 12 months. I've been fighting 40k armies plenty, but no 30k.

 

I've been doing a lot of work painting up stuff I had left over, 2 veterans and a Scorpius. Next up one of those pew-pew vindicators for sniping heavy tanks.

 

Another thing that I don't know if anyone else has noticed (with regards to the Maru Skara) is that you can give Outflank to an Apothecarion detachment and then each Apothecary can give Outflank to each unit they join. It's not game changing, but it's certainly interesting. Outflanking 10 man plasma support squads seems like a good Hidden Blade (or part of a Hidden Blade), no?

Interesting way of usage!

I'm not sure how that flies, only because when you select a medic, it's in the elites section, but then it is permanently assigned to a troops choice.

Is there anywhere you saw this? I mean you could probably outflank lone medics, as they are elites, but I'm not sure if it confers to the troops too?

[Deus Mortis]

Well the Outflank rule says it applies to "any unit with one or more model" with the Outflank rule. Plus, I'm pretty sure that in the Apothecarion detachment you can't run them solo, they have to join a unit. Not game changingly brilliant, but there's some new stuff you can outflank like:

 

- Command squads

- Tactical squads

- Breacher squads

- Heavy Support Squads

- Tactical Support Squads

 

Plus, it means if you've got, say, 2 units of Seekers, a terminator squad and a Dreadnought talon that you want to outflank, you can get two apothecaries, chuck them in the seeker squads and you've got 2 for the price of one. 

 

It doesn't allow you to form a massively kill-y hidden blade, but you could, for one of your 1-3 choices, outflank two plasma/melta-support squads to assassinate some target and outflank a 20 man tactical/breacher blob to steal a backfield objective your opponent thought safe so didn't particularly reinforce. Seems like a way to make quite and effective hammer and anvil. Lots of guns ahead and then, turn 2, you've got lots of guns behind. Then you opponent either divides power of leaves one side open. And that's what the Maru Skara is all about, striking in one place to draw up their guard before a knife in between the 4th and 5th rib ends the fight.

[Theredknight]

It could be helpful. I mean outflanking tacticals in a rhino with combi melta can be nifty, for rear/side armour and objective control.

 

As you say Tac support squads Would be helpful as they don't get targeted from t1 with those handy weapons.

 

So not a win button, but a handy thing. Especially if your not playing big point games

[Cruor]

Hey guys, new to the forum. Spent most of last night reading your posts.. 

 

A little about me: So I have about 8k points in EC. A good chunk is in flyers, i love flyers lol. I have 2 eagles, 2 raptors, 2 lightnings, 1 raven and a cardboard hand made thunderhawk (saving for a real one) and 1 assault ram.

 

I play 40k a lot with my 30k marines, Fulgrim has a good habit of dying to d-weapons and grav... :'(

 

I have a few questions.

Some of you put lists up with 3 hq's. Eidelon and 2 consuls for example. how is that?

 

and some of you said the champion has some buffs but i cant find anything other then he gets better WS?

And lastly the master of the signal has all these special rules i cant find either, only that he has bombardment and can make someone within 6in BS5?

 

After reading some of you posts i have come up with this list.

 

HQ

 

> Chaplain, Artificer armour, Charnabal Sabre, refractor field, shrieker, 120 (free axe or power weapon, dunno what to take?)

> Champion, Artificer armour, Charnabal Sabre, refractor field, 115

 

Troops

 

> 10 Tactical, 150

Rhino, 35

> 10 Tactical, 150

Rhino, 35

 

Elites

 

> Palatine squad, 135

DreadClaw = 100

> Apothecary, 45

 

Fast Attack

 

> Lightning, 3x twlinlinked autocannons, tank hunter, ground tracking = 220

> Land Speeder Javalin, LasCannons, 85

> Xiphon Fighter, Ground tracking, Armoured Cockpit = 220

 

Heavy Support

 

> Predator Squadron (2) Lascannon sponsons, 230

> Fire Raptor, Reaper autocannons, 210

 

1850
 

 

Idea is that turn one.

I have my hq's with the palatine squad in the claw, going after infantry.

 

Predators take off light to medium tanks and monstrous creatures. 

Tac squads hiding as best they can till turn 2.

 

Idea for turn 2 is the fast attack come on and target priority the enemy tough killers, the xiphon can kill anything that jinks and the lightning have 6 strength 7 twinlinked shots at bs 5 and rerolling to pen, as well as having a TL lascannon. Javalin aswell ofcourse.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edited July 6, 2015 by Cruor

[Caustic63]

Hey guys, new to the forum. Spent most of last night reading your posts.. 

 

A little about me: So I have about 8k points in EC. A good chunk is in flyers, i love flyers lol. I have 2 eagles, 2 raptors, 2 lightnings, 1 raven and a cardboard hand made thunderhawk (saving for a real one) and 1 assault ram.

 

I play 40k a lot with my 30k marines, Fulgrim has a good habit of dying to d-weapons and grav... :'(

 

Welcome to the forum! Emperor's Children in 30K love to be mobile, so running a list based around flyers is certainly viable given how many powerful (and expensive) selections that are available in legion armies. Given that you've posted here and asked for advice, its clear you are keen to take your army to the next level so I'll offer the best advice I can. Picking a Rite of War is key to running a successful legion army IMO because specialization allows you to preformulate a strategy and run with it rather then making things up as you go and trusting in general strength to give you all the tools you need to win.  For the most part you are playing against other marine armies, so you better make sure you have some advantage over your opponent you can exploit!

 

In your case I would recommend "Angel's Wraith" so you can ensure your FA slot is less crowded, though going this route demands including Jump Pack Troops and forbids you from running a lot of other good units you might want to take.

 

As a general rule, 30K is going to be much weaker then 40K given the disparity in how the points systems work except at large point values. Keep this in mind the next time a 40K opponent asks you to play a game smaller then 1500.

 

I have a few questions.

 

Some of you put lists up with 3 hq's. Eidelon and 2 consuls for example. how is that?

 

and some of you said the champion has some buffs but i cant find anything other then he gets better WS?

 

And lastly the master of the signal has all these special rules i cant find either, only that he has bombardment and can make someone within 6in BS5?

 

 

For your first question, we are using the "Age of Darkness" force organization chart which is the main one for games of 30K. It features one additional HQ slot and Elites slot over a normal 40K list. The buffs the Champion gets (apart from the Mastercrafted weapon and +1 WS) are as follows: With a Sonic Shrieker he grants his entire unit +1 I on the first round of combat (this one is up for some debate, but RAW says so), and with a Boarding Shield he gains Defensive Grenades which means any unit that charges his doesn't get their charge bonuses. A Master of Signal can be run similarly.

 

I must ask, which version of the Horus Heresy rulebooks are you using? With the recent FAQ from Forgeworld and the updated EC rules in the little red books, you may be using an outdated list. In the new rules, all EC Characters get +1 I in challenges for free, Palatine Blades can take additional models up to ten for four times the cost of a meltabomb each and can upgrade to Phoenix Power Spears for double the Power Sword cost.

 

After reading some of you posts i have come up with this list.

 

HQ

 

> Chaplain, Artificer armour, Charnabal Sabre, refractor field, shrieker, 120 (free axe or power weapon, dunno what to take?)

> Champion, Artificer armour, Charnabal Sabre, refractor field, 115

 

Troops

 

> 10 Tactical, 150

Rhino, 35

> 10 Tactical, 150

Rhino, 35

 

Elites

 

> Palatine squad, 135

DreadClaw = 100

> Apothecary, 45

 

Fast Attack

 

> Lightning, 3x twlinlinked autocannons, tank hunter, ground tracking = 220

> Land Speeder Javalin, LasCannons, 85

> Xiphon Fighter, Ground tracking, Armoured Cockpit = 220

 

Heavy Support

 

> Predator Squadron (2) Lascannon sponsons, 230

> Fire Raptor, Reaper autocannons, 210

 

1850

 

 

Idea is that turn one.

 

I have my hq's with the palatine squad in the claw, going after infantry.

 

Predators take off light to medium tanks and monstrous creatures. 

 

Tac squads hiding as best they can till turn 2.

 

Idea for turn 2 is the fast attack come on and target priority the enemy tough killers, the xiphon can kill anything that jinks and the lightning have 6 strength 7 twinlinked shots at bs 5 and rerolling to pen, as well as having a TL lascannon. Javalin aswell ofcourse.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this list does have some problems.

 

For starters, Palatine Blades can't take Dreadclaws as Dedicated Transports unless you are running the Orbital Strike RoW. If you decide to go that route, then the rest of your list needs major changes to conform to the restrictions. Plus your Apothecary can't go with either Tactical Squad because the Rhinos are full, and can't legally go with the Palatines, so I don't know where you are planning to place him.

 

Fix these issues, and then I can comment on the substance of the list.

 

May your quest for perfection continue!

 

Edited July 17, 2015 by Caustic63

[Theredknight]

I think you also posted in the army lists or there was a similar list posted up there where I mentioned a few things.

 

As caustic says, the shrieker thing is raw, I don't think hesh agrees with that though. However as fw say 'ask amongst your gaming group and decide for yourselves' until it is faq'd or not.

 

The dreadclaw can be taken as fast attack, so you would have to move it to this spot.

 

A champ is ok, but not really worth it unless you are taking maru skara, which at this point value I wouldn't. As caustic says perhaps a master of signals would be a better choice or even tarvitz may prove his worth at these points values.

 

As a rule I take eidolon every game and have him hammer the heck out of people. I put him in an assault squad which is also capturing.

 

I use my predators in squads of 2, for manouverability, and I dont bother with lascannon sponsons, you'd be better off shaving the points off for hb sponsons and a hb pintle.

 

Javelin is ok, however I wish id bought the missile one as you can tool up with extra hunter seekers and glance the hck out of things. A mm is a good investment there.

 

Boarding shield also allows you to throw a blind grenade (I always forget this) and can reduce your opponents to ws1, giving you a great advantage.

 

Chaplain comes with a free 'power weapon that just be shown on the model' Id probably go for a power axe, and arm him with a spear as well, that way he can use his ap2 spear on the charge and switch out to his axe in further rounds if he's in a challenge.

 

You can take 10 palatines, and really you want to be taking the max amount. I arm them with 5 spears and the rest cheaper to take overwatch Fire and General wounds. Any of them can accept or issue challenges. You could always jump pack these instead of a pod and put eidolon in there.

 

Hope my 2pences worth helps also!

[WolfOfHorus]

Just ordered 10 Palatine Blades and 10 Kakophoni, I'm joining this band of deviants!

 

Anyways has anyone used Kakophoni extensively?

[Theredknight]

Welcome to our (future) slaaneshi boudoir!

They are lovely models mate, those are the exact same things I ordered in when I started.

 

Sadly they only get used as proxy for tactical support squads or volkites as their rules are absolutely abysmal, I even had one of the sculptors who made them telling me that at the open day!

 

So until they update them, I proxy :-)

[WolfOfHorus]

That bad that your proxying, damn. Pinning is useful, and picking out characters with AP2 instant death sounds awesome. But heavy 1 sucks and it probabaly deserves AP3.

[Caustic63]

That bad that your proxying, damn. Pinning is useful, and picking out characters with AP2 instant death sounds awesome. But heavy 1 sucks and it probabaly deserves AP3.

 

Not to mention the Kakophoni are Gets Hot! and Fearless units of any kind are completely immune to their damage mechanic (which requires your opponent to fail an Ld. test anyway, meaning he has to fail a bunch of saves for it to have any chance of working). Personally like Phoenix Terminators I try to make the best of them because I like the models, but in almost all cases they are like a lottery - you'll love them when they work but most of the time they won't.

 

One of the things that attracted me to the Emperor's Children in the first place is the beautiful models. They also work great as 40K Noise Marine/Slaanesh proxies.

[WolfOfHorus]

Lot of factors required, same could be said for the Legion in general.

[Hesh Kadesh]

One of our players proposed the following;

 

BS6, gain Deflagrate and Rending on The Cacophany

BioPsychic Shock takes a number of tests equal to the wounds caused, lose the Instant Death Special rule though.

Unit is immune to Blind thanks to their heightened hearing, but models hit by Concussive attacks (not just wounded) are reduced to BS1 as their harmonics are affected.

 

This means that a unit of 10 likely hits with 8-9, causing 6-7 wounds, and perhaps causing 2-6 casualties depending on Rends and Deflagrate; with up to 6 leadership tests, each causing d6 Ap2 wounds if they're failed. They're not too powerful, but on a good roll, can rip apart an enemy unit.

 

It has been tested a couple of times; and doesn't outweigh more reliable options i.e Plasma or Melta Preds or Plasma Deredeos, but provides a neat-o little option that in a pinch can take on medium armoured vehicles.

[Theredknight]

Wow, hesh, I think those are the best rules i have heard by far, and very well balanced! Not over powered, especially compared to some other legion Units, but definately playable for once!

 

Yes I agree with caustic, sorry dude, we have the best models maybe, but some of the worse rules at the mo!

I love the models and colour though, just weathering them all up and switching to scenic 32mm bases.

Alan bligh told me that at some limit theyl get some love, and we can look forward to a more angel exterminatus looking legion.

 

They might not be the best, but if you like a challenge, it's the legion for you! It took me 14 straight losses and lots of experimenting to get it right. Shame open blade doesn't give us more benefits, but I used it the other day. Helped get me in combat round two!

Edited July 28, 2015 by Theredknight

[Caustic63]

In regards to how to fix the Emperor's Children units to make them more consistent and useful, I'd go with a few simpler changes. Assuming I can't change points costs, I'd go with something like this:

 

Phoenix Terminators - give them the 'Hit and Run' Special Rule.

Phoenix Terminators - 'Sudden Strike' changed to: Reroll failed to Hit rolls after charging into Combat.

 

Why? Apart from being overly expensive, the key weakness of PTs is that their maximum damage output takes place only after they charge and lasts for one combat round. This means that if they whiff their dice rolls or get forced into a combat against a rock-hard opponent they will eventually be whittled down and destroyed. Of these two changes the most important one is getting Hit and Run because it allows them (plus any attached characters) to exit combats that are unfavourable and then re-enter them shortly afterwards with all their bonuses. 'Hit and Run' is one of the main reasons why the 'Angel's Wraith' Rite of War works so well for Emperor's Children, because it allows reuse of the charge bonuses against the same enemy. The changes to Sudden Strike might be more 'wishlist' but it makes sense for the overall rule to change (Raven Guard Talons have it too) given that PTs already get improved Initiative from their Sonic Shriekers and Legion special rules (in the case of the champion).

 

Kakophoni - 'The Cacophony' gains the 'Blast' Special Rule.

Kakophoni - 'The Cacophony' gains the 'Ignores Cover' Special Rule.

 

Why? As wonderful as it would be if this unit had all 40K Blastmasters, those are still a bit advanced yet. The purpose of these simple changes would be to more firmly establish the Kakophoni as improved 'Heavy Bolter' Support squads - the unit they are priced on the same level as. Blast increases the number of hits they generate, increasing their base damage output and making their Warp Breach rule more likely to trigger as a result. Ignores Cover gives them some appealing edge over Volkite Culverins which for a few more points would otherwise outclass them in every way.

[Theredknight]

In regards to how to fix the Emperor's Children units to make them more consistent and useful, I'd go with a few simpler changes. Assuming I can't change points costs, I'd go with something like this:

 

Phoenix Terminators - give them the 'Hit and Run' Special Rule.

Phoenix Terminators - 'Sudden Strike' changed to: Reroll failed to Hit rolls after charging into Combat.

 

Why? Apart from being overly expensive, the key weakness of PTs is that their maximum damage output takes place only after they charge and lasts for one combat round. This means that if they whiff their dice rolls or get forced into a combat against a rock-hard opponent they will eventually be whittled down and destroyed. Of these two changes the most important one is getting Hit and Run because it allows them (plus any attached characters) to exit combats that are unfavourable and then re-enter them shortly afterwards with all their bonuses. 'Hit and Run' is one of the main reasons why the 'Angel's Wraith' Rite of War works so well for Emperor's Children, because it allows reuse of the charge bonuses against the same enemy. The changes to Sudden Strike might be more 'wishlist' but it makes sense for the overall rule to change (Raven Guard Talons have it too) given that PTs already get improved Initiative from their Sonic Shriekers and Legion special rules (in the case of the champion).

 

Kakophoni - 'The Cacophony' gains the 'Blast' Special Rule.

Kakophoni - 'The Cacophony' gains the 'Ignores Cover' Special Rule.

 

Why? As wonderful as it would be if this unit had all 40K Blastmasters, those are still a bit advanced yet. The purpose of these simple changes would be to more firmly establish the Kakophoni as improved 'Heavy Bolter' Support squads - the unit they are priced on the same level as. Blast increases the number of hits they generate, increasing their base damage output and making their Warp Breach rule more likely to trigger as a result. Ignores Cover gives them some appealing edge over Volkite Culverins which for a few more points would otherwise outclass them in every way.

Don't forget to take out gets hot! And remove heavy, give them some tactical manouverability as they can take a rhino to position themselves in field.

[exsanguis]

They also really should have 2 wounds like some of the other elite Terminator units. WS5 wouldn't hurt either!

[Theredknight]

Caustic, what do you arm your Maru skara veterans with? I'm curious as I have a couple of bags of mk5s to put together and most weapons.

 

Just keep them shooty Killy? Flanking vets with sniper rule, 2x heavy bolters, x4 combi plasmas

 

I'm feeling they should be able to hit harder infantry targets, as my vindi, deredeo, jetbikes and other things should be able to deal with armour ok.

[Slips]

Depending on how close your Combi-Vets can get, Plasma might be a bit redundant due to sniper. You might be better served by Flamers since you might be causing more hits meaning you might be able to get more Ap2 Wounds; though I'd probably reserve Sniper Flamers to Death Guard or Salamanders since they benefit them the most with Chem Munitions or +1S.