[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Theredknight]

Indeed they are, but I think they know that.

Poor phoenix guard at ws4 is terrible!!

 

Alan bligh said that they will get those sorts of rulesets, hopefully a lucius and fabius as they are the 'worst' of the new batch.

The designers said they'd look forward to fabius's 'experiments' and terrata, because they enjoyed the ghal vorbak.

 

As for how I play them.

In a 2500 point list it generally goes

 

Eidolon, j pack

 

15 man Tac squad ccw

15 man Tac squad ccw

15man assault squad 3 pwr weapons tooled sarge.

10 man Tac support squad, volkite calivers, augury scanner.

 

2x apothecaries with art arnour and power sword.

Mortis with kheres

Contemptor with 2 ccw and 2 grav

2x thudd guns

 

Deredeo with missiles

Vindi las destroyer

2x dakka preds (3hvy bolters and pred cannon)

 

 

With this list I have done fairly well. Bodies give me board control and sacrificial units for target priority, whilst my assault squad and dreds get up there.

Firepower is pretty strong, with a las vindi chomping through contemptors and armour. Deredeo and Mortis can intercept or not. Support squad takes backfield objective and intercepts javelins etc.

 

Last night I dropped the deredeo, assault squad, preds and support squad for 10 terminators and primus in Spartan and 10 sniper vets with 2 plasma. Also a chaplain with void shield in a Tac sauad.

 

The terminators were a massive hammer and smashed their way into mechanicum lines. The vets not so well. Chappy did ok, but he wiped my tab squads by t3.

I'm playing a 3k game later. So I might try out ultras or iron hands. Or try another ec list.

 

I play them mainly because they look lovely!!

[WolfOfHorus]

Anybody got any advice for a list with 40 Palatine Blades? Edited October 29, 2015 by WolfOfHorus

[Charlo]

Anybody got any advice for a list with 40 Palatine Blades?

Get them into combat ;)

 

But really I'd use them in a variety of ways. Some in a spartan, some with packs, some in a pod and some in a flyer maybe. Not too much gear, just a couple of spears. That should form a pretty ace force.

[Caustic63]

Anybody got any advice for a list with 40 Palatine Blades?

 

40 Palatine Blades? Interesting.

 

I would strongly consider using Dreadclaws as your Fast Attack choices, and running one unit with Jump Packs and a Primus Medicae leading the unit. Eidolon almost seems mandatory for this type of army if you are planning to use any Rites of War (Angel's Wraith would get great for the Hit and Run). Another question is what Troops units you plan to use. Assault Marines seem a bit too expensive for what they provide, which could be a deterrent to their use versus Tactical Marines or Veterans/Termies.

 

Keep in mind too that there are a lot of Heavy Tanks/Knights in 30K so you will NEED some kind of vehicle killing power that Palatine Blades likely won't be able to provide. 

 

EDIT: On a different point, I'm pretty excited about the new Horus Heresy boxed set coming out from GW. Given the amount of models, and the possibility of them all belonging to the same legion, it could easily jump start 30K at my local GW store. Heres to buying a load more Emperor's Children upgrade kits!

Edited October 29, 2015 by Caustic63

[WolfOfHorus]

Transports are very pricey though, tooled up Squad will be around 240 to 260.

[Slips]

Its either that or Jump Packs, sadly.

 

Going orbital assault for cheap drop pods might help but youd be stuck with the limitations of the RoW.

[WolfOfHorus]

Thoughts? Yes I can use the Strategic Raid Detachment. Foot slogging seems to be the main way running them enmass and I'll add more on later additions to this list.

 

+++ Killing Cut (1850pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List ((Strategic Raid) Raider) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Boarding Shield, Consul, Phoenix Spear, Sonic Shrieker]

 

Navigator

 

Navigator

 

+ Elites +

 

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought [Extra Armour, Two Twin-linked Lascannons]

 

Palatine Blade Squad [Palatine Prefector, 9x Palatine Warrior, 5x Power Sword]

 

Palatine Blade Squad [Palatine Prefector, 9x Palatine Warrior, 5x Power Sword]

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder Squadron

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder [2x Hunter-killer Missiles, Multi-melta]

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder [2x Hunter-killer Missiles, Multi-melta]

 

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder Squadron

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder [2x Hunter-killer Missiles, Multi-melta]

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder [2x Hunter-killer Missiles, Multi-melta]

 

Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron [Melta Bombs, 2x Multi-Melta, 6x Space Marine Sky Hunters]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Legion Sicaran Battle Tank [Heavy Bolters]

 

Legion Whirlwind Scorpius

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [iII: Emperor's Children]

Edited October 30, 2015 by WolfOfHorus

[Caustic63]

Thoughts? Yes I can use the Strategic Raid Detachment. Foot slogging seems to be the main way running them enmass and I'll add more on later additions to this list.

 

+++ Killing Cut (1850pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List ((Strategic Raid) Raider) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Boarding Shield, Consul, Phoenix Spear, Sonic Shrieker]

 

Navigator

 

Navigator

 

+ Elites +

 

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought [Extra Armour, Two Twin-linked Lascannons]

 

Palatine Blade Squad [Palatine Prefector, 9x Palatine Warrior, 5x Power Sword]

 

Palatine Blade Squad [Palatine Prefector, 9x Palatine Warrior, 5x Power Sword]

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder Squadron

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder [2x Hunter-killer Missiles, Multi-melta]

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder [2x Hunter-killer Missiles, Multi-melta]

 

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder Squadron

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder [2x Hunter-killer Missiles, Multi-melta]

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder [2x Hunter-killer Missiles, Multi-melta]

 

Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron [Melta Bombs, 2x Multi-Melta, 6x Space Marine Sky Hunters]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Legion Sicaran Battle Tank [Heavy Bolters]

 

Legion Whirlwind Scorpius

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [iII: Emperor's Children]

 

This list seems strange to me. When you say "Killing Cut" is that just your name for the list or does it mean you are running the Maru Skara right of war? Which Consul are you running your Legion Centurion as? Are your Palatine Blades walking across the board or do they have transports/jump packs? Where are the Navigators going and what purpose are they serving in this list?

 

Your fast attack seems solid, as does your Heavy Support though I think Lascannons on a Sicarian are slightly better.

[WolfOfHorus]

They are infiltrating with Navigators, giving them -1BS to any unit shooting them.

 

Running Maru Skara at 1850 is crazy expensive. With little in return.

 

Got plenty of AT, and I'm personally not sold lascannons on a vehicle meant for light vehicles.

 

I need a nuncio vox though.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Strategic Raid gives you D3+2.

 

To attach the Navigators, these too must have the Infiltrate rule, so requires at least a 3+ roll on the D3. If they don't, they must deploy seperately. That also leaves you with a unit alone. In addition, you may only ever take a single Navigator. 

 

For those reading either, you cannot run Maru Skara, you're not running a; a Praetor, b; the Legion Champion, c; the Age of Darkness Detachment.

[WolfOfHorus]

Fair point on only taking the one Navigator but as for infiltrating , having read Conquest, its confered just before you deploy, and Characters are added to squads before deployment.

 

As for Maru Skara, I didn't say I was running it.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Calling ab army 'Killing Cut' when that is the alternate name in the army book for it when stacking elites and fast attack leaves enough doubt there for it to be a question. For the record, I was stating ti thoae reading that you couldn't have run Rites of War.

 

As for deployment and infiltrate interactions, an independent character must have infiltrate if it wants to join a squad with infiltrate during deployment. Due to the mechanics for infiltrate, and the FAQ interaction, no longer can lone IC's with infiltrate grant units infiltrate. Rolling for infiltrate before deployment means that you do bot have any combined units.

[WolfOfHorus]

The Navigator is a character, not an independent character, it is attached to a unit like an Apothecary.

[Caustic63]

Calling ab army 'Killing Cut' when that is the alternate name in the army book for it when stacking elites and fast attack leaves enough doubt there for it to be a question. For the record, I was stating ti thoae reading that you couldn't have run Rites of War.

 

As for deployment and infiltrate interactions, an independent character must have infiltrate if it wants to join a squad with infiltrate during deployment. Due to the mechanics for infiltrate, and the FAQ interaction, no longer can lone IC's with infiltrate grant units infiltrate. Rolling for infiltrate before deployment means that you do bot have any combined units.

 

This is correct in regards to Infiltrate. It was FAQed that while Independant Characters can confer Infiltrate on any unit they join (and vice versa), they can no longer join a unit that doesn't already have the rule rendering it redundant except under special exceptions such as Captain Shrike. In Shrike's case, he's explicitly allowed to join units of Jump Infantry which then benefit from his Stealth and Infiltrate rules.

 

I have to say that in regards to this list, your tactic of Infiltrating Palatine Blades makes me uncomfortable because after you place them (assuming a good D3 roll as Hesh highlighted above) they don't have the mobility to make it into combat quickly or the toughness to make up for it. A simple -1 BS buff from a Navigator won't be enough to keep them alive if they end up in combat with Terminators (which are abundant), a Contemptor, or simply targetted with any number of the high firepower units available to an enemy legion army. Not to mention that your Scoring capabilities are severely hampered, since otherwise only your Mortis can score.

 

I'd seriously consider bulking up your Elites with some Veterans/Terminators and narrow the Palatine Blades down to a single unit in a Dreadclaw since you have a fourth Fast Attack slot. Perhaps you can use Chainfist Terminators as your Spartan counter or a Primaris Fighter if you drop a Javelin and fold the remainder into a single unit of three?

The Navigator is a character, not an independent character, it is attached to a unit like an Apothecary.

 

Are you talking about this Navigator or a different one? 

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Navigator.pdf

[WolfOfHorus]

The rules were scribbled out on a piece of paper because we couldn't find the rules on the site.

 

Gonna give the updated list a go. Will see how well Palatine will be as troops.

[Caustic63]

One of my core beliefs about 30K is that the minimum points level the game can effectively be played at is 1500 points. Given how the selection system is organized with higher taxes for small units, maximum squad sizes get the biggest discount and hence are the most economical way to design an army. However, this leads to the big problem of a lack of flexibility at lower point levels to the point that balanced lists are nearly impossible. This design philosiphy would work well with a less elite army, but when you are talking about Space Marines its easy for things to get out of hand running big squad sizes.

 

All of us get to choose which Legion we play as, running from the same basic army list, so it makes sense for me to justify why I am playing a particular list as Emperor's Children if that SAME list can be played better as a different legion. Here is an example of a list that I've created, based loosely around the new Betrayal at Calth boxed set.

 

1500pts.

Legion: Emperor's Children

Rite of War: Pride of the Legion

HQ:

 

Legion Centurion

> Consul: Delegatus

> Schimitar Jetbike

> Phoenix Power Spear, Meltabombs

> Sonic Shrieker

> Warp Displacement Field                185

 

TROOPS:

 

Legion Veteran Squad (x10)

> Sergeant w Power Spear, MBs

> Missile Launcher (x2)

Legion Rhino                                      305

 

Legion Veteran Squad (x10)

> Sergeant w Power Spear, MBs

> Missile Launcher (x2)

Legion Rhino                                      305

 

Legion Terminator Squad (x5)

> Lightning Claw (x4)

> Chainfist

> Combi-Melta (x5)

Anvillus Dreadclaw Drop Pod             340

 

ELITES:

 

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnaught

> Two Kheres Assault Cannons         180

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

 

Heavy Support Squad (x5)

> Volkite Culverins (x5)                      185

 

TOTAL                                              1500

 

So why am I running this list as Emperor's Children? At 1500 points its difficult to capture the strengths of the legion, since there isn't much room for toys outside of the mandatory Troops and HQ slots. Because I'm forced to challenge, I feel the combination of Power Spear and bonus Iniative gives my characters the advantage they need to win those small battles when they occur. Likewise, the bonus to running could prove to be important when it comes to grabbing objectives later in the game.

 

To summarize: There are better legions for this list to be (such as Imperial Fists or Iron Hands), but it's a necessary stepping stone to get to higher points lists where our strengths are more usable.

 

Normally I'd take a Praetor to lead a force like this, and I'm still tempted to try and shave points by dropping the Terminator Lightning Claws and the Shrieker. In this case the Delagatus is essentially operating on his own using the speed of the Jetbike, the increase in toughness/armour save, and the Warp Shunt Field to hopefully make it into combat and act as a disruption (this is a tactic I'm inexperienced in, and I'd like to see if it works).

 

I've loaded out the Veterans with Rhinos and the Braced Missile Launchers, which (while pricey) are pretty effective at top hatch firing. The default Veteran Tactic for both of these units is Sniper, but if my opponent has lots of armour (which is not uncommon in 30K) I'll go for Tank Hunters instead. The Terminators are my most effective vehicle killers, and since they drop in on Turn 1 in their Dreadclaw they can either get out and shoot or remain inside and charge next turn depending on the opponent. I'm using converted Phoenix Terminators for them, who are kind enough to give their Spears to other more needy units. I also have Palatine Blades which could potentially go with Eidolon inside the Dreadclaw, but that would change the character of the list.

 

The Contemptor Mortis Dreadnaught is there as anti-air support and to add some more torrent on top of that provided by the proxied Volkite Culverin squad (using the amazing Kakophoni models). That said, I'm debating whether to run a Sicarian with Lascannons instead in my heavy support. What do you guys think?

Edited November 16, 2015 by Caustic63

[Theredknight]

1500pts! I just simply couldn't play hh at that. And my group really use 2500 as a minimum abd 3k as an average, just the way it's geared I suppose for us :-)

[nightwrench]

Has anyone tried to come up with an effective beta strike force at 2500 points?

 

I was playing iron hands but omg they are so boring to paint and play so they are dropping in the stripper.  My daughter's favorite color is purple and her second favorite char out of the char serious is Fulgrim and my son picked Fulgrim first.  So Emp Children it is.  I have liked Nurgle and Slaanesh since 1993 so ultimately it was one of these two.

 

My gaming group plays at 2500 and we allow 40k as the Heresy group gets larger.  We have two death guard, sallie or mechanicum, raven guard, space wolves, iron warriors (starting) and word bearers.  I think we are also getting one more player that might do World Eaters.  Our 40K opponents can not take formations except the Age of Darkness just like 30k.  We also use 30k missions or Adepticon missions.  I want a thinking mans army and one that has a good Primarch that is both good in CC and buffs his legion.

 

I have read the thread and I see there are issues with the children but failing to sweep with iron hands and getting charged and then swept the following turn has happened to me.  

 

Has anyone thought of trying a command rhino to get 2+ re-rollable reserves with Fulgrim?  That is cheaper than the champion tax.  Additionally you could just take the relay comms fortification for cheaper.  This would still give a reliable beta strike and with the command rhino you can deep strike and not scatter within 24 and still get the shots you want with a lighting. Javelins and outrider sqds still have outflank and you can even outflank w/ vet tacs but loose tank hunter but could take the plasma guns instead and have the outriders take melta over plasma.  Finally, with strategic warlord traits you could still outflank or infiltrate several key squads.  Has anyone considered a large squad of breachers with grav guns?  Just some thoughts I had.  Another question.  Has anyone tried to do spear and power axe on a sarg in the tactical squads and not worry about art armor?  

 

Funny thing is as I read the rule if Martial Pride.  It says if they are defeated in combat and their challenger is slain, they suffer an additional blah blah.  So if you lose and do not kill the challenger there is no LD penalty if you lose.  

[Caustic63]

Has anyone tried to come up with an effective beta strike force at 2500 points?

 

By beta strike, do you mean an aggressive Turn 2 assault list? I've made some tries throughout this thread. I've come to the conclusion though that Assault Squads are a bit too overpriced to work with in 30K unless you are playing one of the especially fighty legions such as World Eaters, Sons of Horus, or Night Lords and even then these legions have their own specialized Jump-pack squads that seem to do the job better. Emperor's Children also fall into that category, since Palatine Blades are quite a bit better given their High Initiative, more attacks, better weapon skill, and Counter-attack.

 

Only if I was running the Wraith of Angels Rite of War would I consider running Assault Squads with EC thanks to the synergy Hit and Run and Phoenix Power Spears have.

 

 

I was playing iron hands but omg they are so boring to paint and play so they are dropping in the stripper.  My daughter's favorite color is purple and her second favorite char out of the char serious is Fulgrim and my son picked Fulgrim first.  So Emp Children it is.  I have liked Nurgle and Slaanesh since 1993 so ultimately it was one of these two.

 

My gaming group plays at 2500 and we allow 40k as the Heresy group gets larger.  We have two death guard, sallie or mechanicum, raven guard, space wolves, iron warriors (starting) and word bearers.  I think we are also getting one more player that might do World Eaters.  Our 40K opponents can not take formations except the Age of Darkness just like 30k.  We also use 30k missions or Adepticon missions.  I want a thinking mans army and one that has a good Primarch that is both good in CC and buffs his legion.

 

I have read the thread and I see there are issues with the children but failing to sweep with iron hands and getting charged and then swept the following turn has happened to me.  

 

One thing about the so called 'top teir' legions is they often have a deep drawback to compensate for their relative strength. People forget this when they take them, and occassionally get caught in their pitfalls. Salamanders are huge for this - they have the buff to Leadership checks and powerful Flamers/Meltas that encourage you to play them up close, BUT if they fail that LD test they are almost always going to be swept. Against Emperor's Children, failing a morale test in CC is almost guaranteed death.

 

Iron Hands are pretty tough against shooting, but once you get them locked into close combat their Inviolate Armour stops working.

 

Emperor's Children are a thinking player's legion, and they are that way because their weapons and rules reward good positional play and exquisite planning. I don't need to go through it all again, but Fulgrim's rerolling reserves and picking a warlord trait in additon to the Maru Skara's automatic arrival allow for some devestating ambushes and atypical strategies.

[Theredknight]

The list I posted at the top of the thread works very well for me because it doesn't have any ec specific units in it, yet fluffy.

'Perfectly balanced weights of fire, with perfectly timed assaults' that's the fight I go for. As caustic says, it's basically playing on hard mode at the m omens.

I have a bit of a streak going at the moment, with some variation in the army so people don't adapt, if they think I'm taking one thing, but instead take 6 jet bikes, it throws them, they think they can kill me by a gun line, but I'm assaulting t2.

 

Caustic doesn't like assault squads, me on the other hand will generally take them if I want to take eidolon. They are cheaper and have more staying power than palatines, losing 4/5 to fire isn't going to make me cry like the blades, I can take eidolon, and 3 power weapons, plus the sarge, that can be pretty nasty on the charge. Eidy does his Thor thing and I'm happy, generally 2/3 dead from him alone.

Plus if I need to score up front, they can be utilised if needs be.

 

I have fulgrim, but have never used him since one apoc game. Reason is, he needs babysitting, transport, accompanying unit etc, before you know it, you've sunk best part of 1000 points into just that, then his cost. I have much better effective ways of neutralising the foe. A fellblade for on, war hound even.

 

Since I stopped trying to use outflank and reserves, I have done well, when I was trying to balance it, I just lost game after game, until I realised, I'm losing because I'm getting taken apart bit by bit. If any unit could outflank, not just fa and elite, then I could use it much better. I don't see why they can't tbh, they are known to flank with tacticals in fulgrim book.

 

So anyway, with this list I have taken down those who are over confident in their lists, salamanders, alpha legion, fists, mechanicum, night lords. All think theirs are 'top tier' their army may have an advantage, but it is well placed crossfire, and bait which draws them into those lanes or teases them to try and charge me, so I can counter charge with a harder hitting unit, then mop up the rest behind with weight of fire.

 

So so far, seems good, I'm looking forward to our new rules, hopefully they have changed a lot of things, ideally the kakophoni weapon stats which makes them useless, and bring the others into points line with other legion specialists. I could wish list all night about th se, but we will see what they have come up with I guess

[nightwrench]

I am not expecting anything for the first four legions in book 6. It is supposed to have new units for the legions that got almost wiped out at istavaan 5 and the legions that don't have rules.

[Marshal Loss]

I think he's partially referring to the expected new edition of the red books (Crusade/Legions army lists) coming next year. Not to shoot down your hopes though TRK, but Andy Hoare said at the open day that they were only planning on changing points values, rather than completely redoing many of the earlier rules. With the exception of what the new Rite of War brings you, I wouldn't expect weapons/wargear/rules to change, just points values.

 

The new Rite of War will be interesting though. Relentless Kakophoni sound interesting but not particularly strong

[nightwrench]

A major change would be to give the spear bonus on the first round of combat and not on the charge.  Another fun bonus would be have counter attack give the spear bonus as well.  I doubt either will happen.

[Theredknight]

I am not expecting anything for the first four legions in book 6. It is supposed to have new units for the legions that got almost wiped out at istavaan 5 and the legions that don't have rules.

Everyone gets a new row, and possibly a character..(vaerosian +kakophoni)

 

There's lots of new things including shattered legions and black shields.

[01RTB01]

Definitely no vairosean for book 6. Just kakophoni as troops with relentless.