[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[GreyCrow]

Is dancing around looking fabulous a good tactic for Emperor's Childrens ? :D

[Theredknight]

Definitely no vairosean for book 6. Just kakophoni as troops with relentless.

Hopefully they make the weapon useful i.e remove gets hot, it's not a plasma gun, or anywhere near as good as one, that has always seemed a harsh punishment for having cool models.

 

Be nice if the row is useful as we have been hampered by a crap one for a long time now. Can't be any worse that we have surely? (Weakest in the game)

 

All we can do is wait! I love the idea of kakophoni marching across the table and kivkjng arse, be nice to make this a reality!

 

And of course, gold, and fabulous dance moves are what EC are all about

Edited November 21, 2015 by Theredknight

[01RTB01]

Agreed, I'd go further and argue we have the weakest primarch, RoW and units. Palatines rock, rest, sadly no good. I spoke with Andy Hoare and he spoke of the possibility of new sonic weapons in the future but that's a long way off afaik. 2 shots and no gets hot combined with relentless and being troops would make kakophoni more palatable. Currently I run mine as heavy volkites.

[GreyCrow]

Yeah, I usually haven't got much trouble seeing the niche of units but the Kakophoni puzzle me. The only way I would run them would be 10 strong with a Master of Signal for the BS5 (because you want to maximize the number of wounds inflicted).

 

I have a question about the special rule, which I find poorly worded :

1) It says to make track of the number of Wounds suffered by the unit.

2) You take the Ld Test if you suffered an unsaved wound (and unsaved is specified).

3) You reduce the Ld value by the number of wounds suffered.

 

Imagine the following scenario : I shoot with 10 Kakophoni at a Marines unit, 7 hits, 6 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds. Let's assumign the Sergeant is alive.

Does that mean they would take the Ld check at Ld9-6 (due to having suffered 6 wounds) or at Ld9-2 ?

 

I would tend to go with the Ld check at Ld3 due to the rule explicitely using both wounds suffered and unsaved wounds suffered. And that would make them more interesting, but still quite disappointing.

Efficient as a budget HS though.

[nightwrench]

 

I am not expecting anything for the first four legions in book 6. It is supposed to have new units for the legions that got almost wiped out at istavaan 5 and the legions that don't have rules.

Everyone gets a new row, and possibly a character..(vaerosian +kakophoni)

 

There's lots of new things including shattered legions and black shields.

 

 

 

I am not expecting anything for the first four legions in book 6. It is supposed to have new units for the legions that got almost wiped out at istavaan 5 and the legions that don't have rules.

Everyone gets a new row, and possibly a character..(vaerosian +kakophoni)

 

There's lots of new things including shattered legions and black shields.

 

 

 

I am not expecting anything for the first four legions in book 6. It is supposed to have new units for the legions that got almost wiped out at istavaan 5 and the legions that don't have rules.

Everyone gets a new row, and possibly a character..(vaerosian +kakophoni)

 

There's lots of new things including shattered legions and black shields.

 

Didn't realize everyone was getting a new RoW.  If it is post Istavaan 5 and Calth I wonder if we will see some more chaotic tendencies or if that will be more towards the siege.

[Theredknight]

Yes, blood Angel and white scars will get two (one before, one after) legions are supposed to be more degraded etc, like world eaters getting more nails etc.

Also there will be somethings like 13 general rites of war available to all and 2 new consul types.

[Sheesh Mode]

Agreed, I'd go further and argue we have the weakest primarch, RoW and units. 

Well that's dramatically different from the first page's opinion of the Emperor's Children. What changed? 

[Hesh Kadesh]

It is?

 

words

[Sheesh Mode]

Here you are. 
 

There seems to be a consistant theme throughout the Emperor's Children of Combat Resolution Bonuses, Initaitive bonuses, speed increases, and sporadic (but still present) non-Unwieldy AP2 in close combat. Naturally almost all of these gear the Legion towards Close Combat, which would be BAD in 40K where many armies can outfight you (since you're still just marines with some perks in most cases) but in 30K since it's for the most part MEQ on MEQ its sort of okay.

 

With some of the upgrades and improvements that have been applied to 30K with the release of new books, there's actually a new angle that can be played quite effectively - Outflanking + reliable reserves. This particular combination comes to fruitition when using the legion's unique Rite of War the Maru Skara.

 

The ability to have reserves arrive exactly when you plan them to is invaluable, and having Outflank means you can set up some pretty devestating ambushes to catch more stationary gun-based opponents off-guard. I could write a whole article on the Maru Skara and the application of it, but instead I'm going to move to the next most important point:

 

Fulgrim.

 

Amongst his brothers, Fulgrim is arguably one of the best Primarchs in the game. With the upgrade he can take a Mastercrafted Paragon Blade (which also has higher chance to ID) which is pretty much a no-brainer, and so armed is statistically likely to kill any other Primarch in the game in a one on one battle (except Horus, who can wear him down and kill him over many turns). This is just a perk however, not his main draw - the big benefits to taking Fulgrim in your EC army are:

 

1) You can choose his Warlord Trait from the BRB or Crusade Army List. This opens up a whole pandoras box of army building options... you can have Master of the Ambush Fulgrim to press in your Bikes/Marines, Fighty Fulgrim with Coordinated Assault, Shooty Fulgrim with Target Priority, or even Victory Fulgrim with Legendary Fighter (you can count on your opponents refusing pretty much every challenge though...)

2) Reroll Reserves - as if the Maru Skara isn't enough reserves shenanigans, you can ensure everything else arrives right on time too!

3) Combat Resolution Bonus - stacks nicely with Rylanor's Aura for a +3 bonus. If you can't get enough of this, Paladin of Glory Fulgrim increases it to +4. So basically unless you completely whif versus World Eats you are unlikely to lose too many combats...

The most simple approach to the Emperor's Children appear's to be taking Fulgrim and using the Master of Ambush trait to push your troops up immediately in order to effectively support the outflanking reserves on turn 1. Then take advantage of your crusade abilities turn 2. But it all feels so frail to me.

[Charlo]

I'd Say Fulgrim is pretty legit. He'll dismember anyone in combat. Sure he's "slow" and needs a transport but most Primarchs do.

[Theredknight]

I never use him, but I prefer to spend that amount of points for boots on the ground, one unit can be avoided and picked apart.

One game I played recently involved terminators, eidolon and primus in a spartan driving up one side of the board, getting there only to discover everything had been destroyed,and driving back again.t5 assault on 2 remaining guys yay.

 

Of course, if you go for a primarch v primarch fight, they generally get stuck together (having played it out with ferrus once = 28 turns or something)

[Hesh Kadesh]

Still not sure where you are coming from.

 

There are Terminators who cost too much for their situational use and are too easily countered. They are an assault unit with Move Through Cover and cannot Sweep yet have combat res bonuses. They don't have WS5.

 

Palatine Blades are okay but prone to the issue of being a 3+ Save on an overly capable unit. You don't want to sweep with these because they cannot charge another unit and so get left in no mans land facing down 20 odd bolters, and losing a 25-30pt model hurts.

 

Sonic Squads? Lets not go there.

 

Eidolon. He is ace. As ever, got to be careful about over extending, but +1" charge, and i7 s8 ap2 charges are incredible. Candidate for 3rd place best non Primarch character in the game (after Dynat (1st), and Maun (2nd), alongside Sigismund or Erebus.

 

A defensive EC army isade better.by Cpunter Attack but it won't win you a game really. It only really becomes useful if you can force your opponent to charge you on a unit in which it is most effective. So basically 200 pts set up in a CC squad sitting on home objective doing nothing all game only to be denied by a late jetbike turbo boost or blown away by a Typhon.

 

The only thing they have going for them is to be strong while sweeping, but the game sets that portion to be weak, because of 3rd edition CSM and Eldar nonsense.

 

There is just no domino effect that would allow them to do so. You would have thought that overwatch and disordeted charge mechanics would allow, but apparently not.

 

If there was, EC would bump up to tier 2. as it is, with Deep Strike making its way back into the game and other reserve manipulation with the existence of Alpha Legion, Fortifications being taken more seriously, and the Damocles Command Rhino, every army can do reserves like EC, and the Maru Skara loses out even more.

 

Benefits? You can recoup the cost ofnDeep Strikijg and spend the extra on Contemptors/extra Dreadnought.

[Theredknight]

I don't even think about phoenix Termies, as hesh mentions.

Basically for cheaper points, regular tartoros termies are more adaptable and can load out how you want. It's why I will use them over phoenix.

 

And yes, lots can do a copy of maru skara now, im Sure there will be more in the new book as well which will see it outdated even further.

 

So really we are hoping for the new row to upgrade ec to being good, or we will be in the same boat as others using the new generic ones.

 

I only use eidolon from the entire ec range. Literally nothing else.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Theredknight

[Caustic63]

I feel like Emperor's Children in their current form will likely be completed by new rules in the future representing their descent into Chaos. By the time we get to Terra for example Fulgrim is a Daemon Prince, Noise Marines are a strong main body of the legion and Fabius Bile has gone is own way. Speaking of which, doesn't it seem odd that both Lucius and Fabius don't have rules at this point? My intuition is telling me that there is a lot of development that has yet to be done on our legion, so patience is a virtue.

 

 

Still not sure where you are coming from.

There are Terminators who cost too much for their situational use and are too easily countered. They are an assault unit with Move Through Cover and cannot Sweep yet have combat res bonuses. They don't have WS5.

Palatine Blades are okay but prone to the issue of being a 3+ Save on an overly capable unit. You don't want to sweep with these because they cannot charge another unit and so get left in no mans land facing down 20 odd bolters, and losing a 25-30pt model hurts.

Sonic Squads? Lets not go there.

Eidolon. He is ace. As ever, got to be careful about over extending, but +1" charge, and i7 s8 ap2 charges are incredible. Candidate for 3rd place best non Primarch character in the game (after Dynat (1st), and Maun (2nd), alongside Sigismund or Erebus.

 

Phoenix Terminators are insultingly weak when compared to Lernean Terminators on the Alpha Legion, as are Justaerin Terminators from the Sons of Horus. This is a symptom of power creep between the books, as the book one legions had to be brought up to speed in the second book to be on par with the book two legions. After the third book a number of small changes were made in the red books, such as adding additonal models to Palatine Blades, +1 I in challenges, etc. but they merely put a bandaid on the gap that was already starting to widen between the book one and book three legions.

 

On the subject of the Palatine Blades I find it hard to criticize a unit for being TOO effective, as it could very well end up being a good exchange if they wipe out a unit of Terminators with a character for example. I have found that a squad of them with Eidolon ultimately ends up just being a boat to deliver the Lord Commander into combat anyway, however a Primus Medicae leading the unit is rarely a bad idea.

 

Kakophoni aren't especially good at the moment, but if the rumours are true they can be decent as Troops and with Relentless.

 

I'm surpised you've ranked Dynat and Maun as your two best characters. Yes they both have the luxury of being great support HQs, but both are fairly weak in Combat (Dynat has less attacks then a normal praetor, and Maun has a Power Sword and no Invulnerable save) which is where they will likely end up. Its a give and take I suppose.

[SkimaskMohawk]

You don't want to be too good in combat because you'll end up winning it on the turn you charged, leaving you exposed in the enemy's shooting phase. This hurts even more if they have no real defensive capabilities (2+ armour and/or invuls, 3+ doesnt cut it)

[GreyCrow]

You don't want to be too good in combat because you'll end up winning it on the turn you charged, leaving you exposed in the enemy's shooting phase. This hurts even more if they have no real defensive capabilities (2+ armour and/or invuls, 3+ doesnt cut it)

 

This is true when fighting a weak melee unit that will have trouble killing your unit in combat, but when going against Terminators it means that you're potentially giving them 2 rounds of fighting to kill your squad so it's not a good alternative either ^^

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well the blade's save and kit incentivezes them to win on the charge and get lots of them with sonic shriekers, power/phoenix spears and jump packs.

 

And even if you are going against terminators, the most efficient kit for 5 at 235 probably more than that unit of 5 terminators, meaning you lost points if your opponent decides to kill your 5 marines afterwards. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

You don't assault terminators. You're in a Dreadclaw. You choose the charge. 

[Charlo]

I think Phoenix terms will be among those getting a points drop in the new Red book due after/when 6 drops.

[MorgothNL]

I think Phoenix terms will be among those getting a points drop in the new Red book due after/when 6 drops.

I'd prefer them to stay at the current points cost, but make them better. EC are not about cheap ok units, they should have expensive awesomely good units IMHO.

So give them WS5 and allow them to sweep, give them meltabombs, extra change distance.. give them something. The WS5 seems a no-brainer to me. 

 

Same goes for palatines, if they'd even just allow the option for an apothecary to join them, it would make them so much more viable. Why can 2+ armour pyroclast have an apothecary, but our palatines can't?

 

EC aren't completely broken, they can be fixed with some minder adjustments, made by someone who knows the game. 

 

The legion special rules and the downside of the ROW (kill enemy warlord), frustrate me the most.

 

 

I've actually send FW a mail asking about the EC rules, using Rylanor vs Honoured Telemechrus as my prime example. 

(both dread cost the same amount of points, Telemechrus has every rule Ryalanor has, but also has +1 attack, +1 HP and hatred traitors). Rylanor should be about 50 points cheaper than Telemechrus just for the extra HP and Attack.

 

The told me that the designers are looking into the old legions, but that we shouldn't expect anything to change soon. 

 

They added:

For now, we in the Forge World team champion the "House Ruling system" and suggest having a conversation over the rules at hand with the groups you play games with and see which interpretation(s) or changes are the best for your games.

 

But I for one would not enjoy winning with army that has it's rules tweaked. Even is both players agree that the changes are completely balanced and justified.. it wouldn't feel the right.

 

I am considering to ask my opponents if they are ok with an apothecary joining Palatines. This just makes sense to me. But I'd have a list without apothecary ready for those that are not in 100% ok with it. If they don't agree it's balanced and even then the EC are still way underpowered, I will defeat him with the current handicaps :D.

(actually, when playing EC I feel like I start the game with 2 points behind on the scoreboard AND playing with 1 eye closed and 1 arm tied behind my back).

Edited November 24, 2015 by MorgothNL

[Marshal Loss]

 

I think Phoenix terms will be among those getting a points drop in the new Red book due after/when 6 drops.

I'd prefer them to stay at the current points cost, but make them better. EC are not about cheap ok units, they should have expensive awesomely good units IMHO.

So give them WS5 and allow them to sweep, give them meltabombs, extra change distance.. give them something. The WS5 seems a no-brainer to me. 

 

 

Unfortunately, that's not what is going to happen in the next red book. They're rebalancing points costs & maybe clarifying some rules, not redoing the rules for existing units

[MorgothNL]

 

 

I think Phoenix terms will be among those getting a points drop in the new Red book due after/when 6 drops.

I'd prefer them to stay at the current points cost, but make them better. EC are not about cheap ok units, they should have expensive awesomely good units IMHO.

So give them WS5 and allow them to sweep, give them meltabombs, extra change distance.. give them something. The WS5 seems a no-brainer to me. 

 

 

Unfortunately, that's not what is going to happen in the next red book. They're rebalancing points costs & maybe clarifying some rules, not redoing the rules for existing units

 

 

A simple FAQ with 2 or 3 changes would be enough to fix the legion. Too bad that FW and GW designers don't seem to play with all the legions/armies themselves.

[Theredknight]

The designers do, that's why kakophoni are changing, the model designer for them said he had to fight for strength 6! We even joked about how crap they are back in July.

In October this new row has come about because of conversations just like that, and many emails to them from numerous sources.

We can hope for a bit more love, but time will tell.

Either way, fw actually listen to their fan base. Unlike the morons in gw 'rules design team'

[Ishagu]

I'm just visiting here, but I assume everyone is bringing Fulgrim?

He's almost worth it for the Warlord Traits alone...

Edited November 25, 2015 by Ishagu

[Caustic63]

Reading some of the recent posts on this thread, I've noticed that there are a lot of generalist arguments in regards to unit strategies. I'm pretty experienced at playing 40K and also 30K, and I'm constantly amazed by how different the game seems to play on the tabletop versus how the internet says its supposed to play. There are over a dozen legions now, plus additional armies such as Mechanicum, Solar Auxilia and Imperial Knights. The potential compositions one could end up playing against are almost limitless, and since games are timely affairs most players can't say they've played against even a fraction of these. To this end, I'm going to try doing a case study (or two) where I take a list that I am happy with using Emperor's Children and I put it up against the lists other players have posted on the Horus Heresy Army Lists forum here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/187-horus-heresy-army-lists/

I examine the list my 'opponent' has created and I explain how I would tackle it using the units and resources in my own army. I'm hoping that through this approach I can educate in a more specific way about how I feel the game works. I appreciate and look forward to feedback regarding this new method.

The list I am going to start with is this one:

2500pts. Legiones Astartes (Emperor's Children)

HQ: Rite of War: Maru Skara

Lord Commander Eidolon

[rides in Dreadclaw]

Legion Centurion

> Consul: Champion

> Phoenix Power Spear (MC), MBs

> Artificer Armour

> Boarding Shield, Sonic Shrieker

[with Tactical Squad #1]

TROOPS:

Legion Tactical Squad #1 (x15)

> Sergeant w Phoenix Power Spear, Meltabombs

> Legion Vexilla

Legion Tactical Squad #2 (x15)

> Sergeant w Phoenix Power Spear, Meltabombs

> Legion Vexilla

ELITES:

Palatine Blades (x9) 215

> Prefector w Phoenix Power Spear, Meltabombs

> Phoenix Power Spear (x2)

[Rides in Dreadclaw]

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnaught

> Kheres Assault Cannons

Apothecary Detachment (x2)

> Artificer Armour (x2)

> Augury Scanner (x2)

[with Tacticals #1 and #2]

Legion Terminator Squad (x5)

> Normal Terminator Armour

> Chainfist, Power Swords (x4)

> Combi-Melta (x5)

Dreadclaw Assault Pod

FAST ATTACK:

Javelin Land Speeder (x2)

> Cyclone Missile Launcher (x2)

> HK Missile (x4)

Dreadclaw Assault Pod

Legion Outriders (x5)

> TL Plasmagun (x5)

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Sicarian Battle Tank

> Lascannon Sponsons

Legion Predator

> Executioner Plasma Destroyer

> Heavy Bolter Sponsons

...

Why Maru Skara?

After I finished building this list as a normal army, I realized that with a few small adjustments (such as changing my Consul from a Chaplain into a Champion) I could guarentee that my reserves arrive the exact turn I want them to. This ability is pretty valuable as it removes the random element altogether. No opponent can mess with this asset, and it comes with the bonus feature of an extra inch of movement first turn. The Champion is less of a tax because he gives his unit defensive grenades from the Boarding Shield, and bonus Initiative through his Shrieker.

2500pts. Emperor's Children VS Raven Guard: A Case Study (Part One)

The list I've chosen to do an example on is this list from the forums: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316419-rg-2500-decap-strike/

It's an alpha strike Raven Guard army, with a bunch of bonuses to deployment and going first. So I would expect to get hit early and get hit hard. Its not optimized to what RG are truely capable of (lots of Rhinos which should be Pods) but it is nonetheless pretty frightening. There is a vicious amount of firepower here, backed up by reserves of his own coming in from turn two onward. My feelings are the best way to beat this kind of list is to simply let him go first, and then use my Outflankers to eliminate his freshly arrived units (rather then the other way around). A typical setup (with adjustments depending on the scenario) would look something like this:

My Raven Guard opponent would likely take full advantage of his Infiltrate capabilities, waiting until after I've setup to position his attacking units 18" away from me in their transports. His attack comes in two prongs, one featuring two naked Tactical Squads and the other with his two Mor Deythan Squads tooled up with Combi-Plasma Guns to lay on the pain right away. Captain Maun joins them, no doubt to aid the arrival of his planes and Javelins which are sure to be arriving soon.

Given this setup, my primary concerns would be starting with my Tacticals as spread out as possible, and with my valuable characters as near to the back as possible. I expect to take quite a few casualties, even with the Apothecaries, so the more I can mitigate the effects of his blast weapons the better. Keep in mind this hypothetical table has NO TERRAIN and that you will suffer less casualties the more things you have to climb up/hide behind. It's important to ensure before the game starts there is enough difficult terrain and ruins to keep things from favouring shooting too much.

My secret Maru Skara list looks like this:

(Turn 2)

Javelin Speeders

Outriders

Dreadclaw - Eidolon and Palatines inside

An aggressive (and effective) battleplan from him would look something like this:

The lines represent the Rhinos moving forward and unloading their cargo into Rapid Fire range (note this strategy is not avoidable if he starts 18" away, so deploying further back doesn't help at all). The diamonds represent optimal deployment zones for his Tank Hunter Meltagun Veterans. Depending on what he wants to go after with his Graviton Cannons, he would more then likely favour the far right zone to go after the Predator Executioner. If he's aware and timid he might not land in either place, due to the threat of Interceptor from the Tactical Squads (who have Augary Scanners) and Mortis Contemptor. The Hexagons represent possible Typhon targetting points (he'd probably wait until after all the rest of his shooting is done so friendly fire isn't as damaging), while the Circles are Graviton Cannon targetting points. As you can see, things aren't looking too amazing for what units I have on the board!

I'll continue this later by using some supposition to guess how the game would proceed. However, as with all games its ultimately up to the dice.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Caustic63