[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[01RTB01]

I run 10 palatines, 3 spears, jump packs, eidolon and chaplain. They do get shot, but opponents have to worry about the leviathan that podded in first :) mine have always butchered what they charge and shriekers just made them better vs other elites.

 

I personally love the new RoW and 20 kakophoni are my default troops choices now.

 

Going to try seekers with combis and a pod next game for some hopefully accurate bs5 doom

[Frater Cornelius]

Is it worth investing in Jetbikes outside of the Skyhunter Rite?

[Caustic63]

Is it worth investing in Jetbikes outside of the Skyhunter Rite?

 

It is, but you need to have a good plan because you pay a lot for them being tough and fast. Since they don't score when they are in Fast Attack, they are of questionable use if you are running them with HBs and Culverins because there are better, cheaper sources of anti-horde weapons available. I've argued in the past that the most useful arrangement of Jetbikes is with Multimeltas and squad-wide Meltabombs. Take this unit and zoom around tagging vehicles in their side armour and if possible assaulting them... a few vehicles are immune to the additional effects of the Multimeltas through Armoured Ceramite but many are still quite vulnerable to it.

 

The Skyhunter RoW works really well for Emperor's Children in my opinion, because our legion rules and special units favour aggressive play over gunlines and any force swap that allows us to take Fast Attack as Troops is a good thing. Granted this RoW is highly restrictive in what it allows you to take (basically only Jetbikes, Skimmers, Flyers, and Infantry inside Flyers) which makes list building fairly challenging.

 

As a side note, Phoenix/Standard Terminators are excellent choices in a Skyhunter Phalanx list because:

1) They can take Dreadclaws as Dedicated Transports (which are Flyers of course) thus keeping your important Fast Attack slots free

2) They can be tooled to perform any role that Jetbikes aren't particularly good at, such as Combi-Weapons and close combat

3) They Score, which means they can take and hold objectives without bogging down your Jetbikes

4) They are just as tough as your Jetbikes, leaving fewer good targets for AP3 weapons such as Missiles

[Frater Cornelius]

Given that my loyalty reaches such obscene levels that any traitor model I touch immediately catches fire. That would be my reason for possibly trying the 3rd Company, but unlikely to continuously use it. I really like the style of the original RoW and like fast-moving units and some solid hitting power in melee. Hence why I was thinking about 2 units of 3 Jetbikes with a MM and MB across the board to supplement Dreadpods, Rhinos, a Raider, a Dreadclaw and possibly a Rhino.

 

Having said that, I like that idea you mentioned with Skyhunter and PG in a Claw.

[nightwrench]

Ok, I am willing to admit I maybe selling Palatine Blades short.  On the charge they are just as strong or stronger as they will hit first.  You lose the str 6 power axes but you do not necessarily need the sonic shriekers though I think I would still purchase them as you would hit on 3's vs. other WS5 units.  I am going to have to try them out.  The loss of melta bombs should not be that bad as I have other sources of melta bombs. 

[Terminus]

It's nice to hear you've got some experience in with the new RoW. The performance you describe with your Vets is kind of surprising, considering the only AP2 weapon they possess striking in initiative order is the sergeant's Phoenix Spear. It's certainly possible to kill between 5-8 Cataphractii Terms on the charge, but its unlikely without the specialized equipment and superior stats the Palatine Blades have. I typically run my Palatine Blades in a unit of 9 giving the Prefector and two Blades a Spear (for a total of 3) while the rest just use their Rending swords. I then attach a character such as Eidolon without a jump pack, Fulgrim (reducing to 8), a Primus Medicae or a Chaplain.

To put it simply, Veterans are more all around flexible (thanks to ranged weapon choices, scoring and meltabombs) while Palatine Blades are pure bloody murder in close combat.

You'd need to cut down to 7 to fit Fulgrim.

 

Sonic shriekers on a WS5 model also mean WS3 enemies need 5s to hit you in combat.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Terminus

[nightwrench]

I believe the difference has to be double WS+1.  So WS 3 would need a 5 to hit on WS7.  WS2 would hit WS5 on a 5. 

[Terminus]

I believe the difference has to be double WS+1.  So WS 3 would need a 5 to hit on WS7.  WS2 would hit WS5 on a 5. 

 

Right. So opponent is WS3 (which is relatively common outside of the Astartes). Sonic shriekers reduce them to 2. Phoenix Guard and Palatines are WS5. WS2 vs. WS5 = hit on 5s.

[Caustic63]

Fulgrim is Bulky not Very Bulky (note that some Primarchs are smaller while others are understandably bigger). This means he only takes up 2 Transport slots.

[Frater Cornelius]

Alright, given my funds I will need to choose between certain setups now. In the end I could do both, but it will be a long time apart until I can do it. I was wondering if people who have played either could comment and help me choosing :)

 

Setup 1

Hidden Content

This one is more infantry focused. We are looking at 20 Tacs (or 2x 10, both are possible - they can also be magnetized and used as Veterans), 10 Kakophoni, Rylanor, Eidolon, 10 Palatines (with maginetized JP), a Sicaran, a Scorpius and 2-3 Thud Guns. I also have a Land Raider, two Rhinos and two Predators from 40k that I can convert to use with EC.

I can play both of the EC RoW, both of which I really like, and create a balance between assaulting and shooting.

 

The next purchases would be 5 Phoenix Guard, a Dreadclaw and possibly a flyer and 1-3 Javelin Speeders, at which point I will have a complete a coherent list and won't need to invest in further into the army for quite a while.

 

Setup 2

Hidden Content

This one will be more of a Blitz army. I will be looking at Jetbikes and characters on Jetbikes, Javelin Speeders, Phoenix Guard in a Dreadclaw, possibly a few more Dreads in Pods, a Storm Eagle or Fire Raptor (or both). I would possbily invest in JP units as well.

 

The next purchase would be a few Palatines to stick into the SE. This is way faster, but far more specialized. It will see more assault as well compared to the setup above, which is definitely more balanced.

 

I would appreciate any input. Cheers ;)

[01RTB01]

Alright, given my funds I will need to choose between certain setups now. In the end I could do both, but it will be a long time apart until I can do it. I was wondering if people who have played either could comment and help me choosing :)

 

Setup 1

Hidden Content

This one is more infantry focused. We are looking at 20 Tacs (or 2x 10, both are possible - they can also be magnetized and used as Veterans), 10 Kakophoni, Rylanor, Eidolon, 10 Palatines (with maginetized JP), a Sicaran, a Scorpius and 2-3 Thud Guns. I also have a Land Raider, two Rhinos and two Predators from 40k that I can convert to use with EC.

I can play both of the EC RoW, both of which I really like, and create a balance between assaulting and shooting.

 

The next purchases would be 5 Phoenix Guard, a Dreadclaw and possibly a flyer and 1-3 Javelin Speeders, at which point I will have a complete a coherent list and won't need to invest in further into the army for quite a while.

 

Setup 2

Hidden Content

This one will be more of a Blitz army. I will be looking at Jetbikes and characters on Jetbikes, Javelin Speeders, Phoenix Guard in a Dreadclaw, possibly a few more Dreads in Pods, a Storm Eagle or Fire Raptor (or both). I would possbily invest in JP units as well.

 

The next purchase would be a few Palatines to stick into the SE. This is way faster, but far more specialized. It will see more assault as well compared to the setup above, which is definitely more balanced.

 

I would appreciate any input. Cheers ;)

First build for me. More variety and plenty of dakka. Also I play Ec as the models are beautiful and you've more in the first list :)

[Caustic63]

I'd make the choice based on how experienced you are going into this. I'm assuming that you are choosing between a 3rd Company Elite army and a Skyhunter Phalanx army? If you feel you are inexperienced and not terribly secure in 30K I'd recommend going with the first option because there are very few army restrictions (apart from Rylanor and Kakophoni never being allowed to be in the same army together because one is loyalist and the other is traitor) so you can try as many new things as you want. The first option is also pretty easy to play since Kakophoni have so much firepower.

 

If you have a few games under your belt and feel like an aggressive army is what you want then the second option could work well for you. I say this because its a riskier and more positional option that requires good judgement to use effectively. This applies not only on the table but also off the table when you are writing up your list - the Skyhunter Phalanx Rite of War heavily restricts what units you are allowed to take (so no Jump Pack troops or Dreads in Pods) so you need to use finesse to make sure every role is covered.

 

I hope this helps your selection process.

[Frater Cornelius]

Heh, well, experience is the last thing I lack. I am very adept at playing pretty much anything in 30k and 40k. It is just that I have not tried EC is either of those setups yet, so I can only judge those builds by way of logical thinking and theorycrafting as opposed to practical experience.

 

Having said that, I am also gravitating towards the first build, as is allows a greater variety of builds. As for Kakophoni, Rylanor and Eidolon, as well as the 3rd Company, the loyalist and traitor thing does not really matter in my gaming group. They accept anything as long as the fluff is right. I will create myself counts-as and play full on loyalists, as I always do. Those restrictions have no influence on my choice in this particular case

Edited March 11, 2016 by Immersturm

[ThatOneMarshal]

I'm a little suprised your playing EC Immersturm. From previous posts you wanted a good faction, the EC are the complete opposite :D.

 

I like the second list, though that's only because I like playing armies that try to go as fast as possible. The first list is definetly more well rounded and make use of the EC special units more.

[Frater Cornelius]

I'm a little suprised your playing EC Immersturm. From previous posts you wanted a good faction, the EC are the complete opposite .

 

I like the second list, though that's only because I like playing armies that try to go as fast as possible. The first list is definetly more well rounded and make use of the EC special units more.

 

No one is more surprised than I am. However, I created an awesome character backstory and I am in the process of making said character. It really appeals to me so I decided to build an army around it. It was literally a decision that happened within 30 minutes or so and I was very adamant about it, which is very unusual given how indecisive I usually am when it comes to armies.

 

I think one reason why I am also gravitating towards the first one, because the central theme is patience and inner strength. Let the enemy make his move that so that you can counter it. I can represent it way better with swordsmen on foot and with a more balanced approach as opposed to the blitz style like BA or Ravenwing.

[Frater Cornelius]

I played my very first game with EC yesterday. It was a spontaneous decision. It was a 1650 game. My buddy was preparing for a tournament while I was having fun. I played the 3rd Company with Eidolon with 5 Palatines (2 Spears) in a Dreadclaw, 2 units of 5 Kakophoni in Rhinos, a Sicarans with HBs, a Scorpius, 2 Thud Guns with a Master of Signal and 2 sets of 3 Jetbikes with MM and MB.

He was playing a White Scars Battle Company with Grav Bikes (with Ignore Cover), Razorbacks, Scouts in Speeders and Devs with Grav Cannons and everything was Scouting. I think he outnumbered me at least 3:1.

 

However, I was pleasantly surprised. I managed to set up correctly and chip away it him. The Dreadclaw with the Palatines was priceless. That feeling as Eidolon and his guys took apart his Command Squad on the charge before he even got to hit back with his HQs was very satisfying. The Kakophoni were very solid as well. They took apart Rhinos and the Marines falling out of those. I really enjoyed using them, especially because they allow you to play an effective army below 2000 points.

I think the only ones that did not pull their weight were the Jetbikes. I was unable to hide them so they all died in T1. Ignore Cover Grav is a nightmare to face.

 

Obviously he won with objectives, which was to be expected given how 40k scoring and Maelstrom works. However, if it was a 30k game, the victory would have probably been mine. We had to end after bottom of turn 3, at which point he lost more than half of his army (including all the Grav and the most threatening Razorbacks, leaving only Bolters and Heavy Bolters on the board) and I was only down 6 Jetbikes, 1 Rhino, 2 Palatines and 1 Kakophoni. I would have never expected to actually put a dent in that army, but the high initiative on the charges and excellent fire support made it happen.

 

Either way, it was a very succesful first game. Both of us enjoyed it

Edited March 12, 2016 by Immersturm

[Da Once & Future Git]

Has anyone tried the Orbital Assault RoW?  I'm thinking it might be a good way to get all the assault units down on turn one ready to assault turn 2, something like this for 2k:

 

First Wave

Dreadclaw 1: Praetor, Pimus medicae, Palantines

Dreadclaw 2: 5 Phoenix Termies

Dreadpod: Leviathan

 

2nd Wave

2 10 man tac squads

 

Reserves - Primaris-lightning

 

Thoughts?

 

For the exact list (and another list I'm pondering (help me choose!), see here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320270-2-2k-emperors-children-lists-help-me-decide/

[ThatOneMarshal]

Orbital assualt gets its real power from its drop podding support squads. If you can find a way to get some in then I think that would be pretty good.

[Caustic63]

Has anyone tried the Orbital Assault RoW?  I'm thinking it might be a good way to get all the assault units down on turn one ready to assault turn 2, something like this for 2k:

 

First Wave

Dreadclaw 1: Praetor, Pimus medicae, Palantines

Dreadclaw 2: 5 Phoenix Termies

Dreadpod: Leviathan

 

2nd Wave

2 10 man tac squads

 

Reserves - Primaris-lightning

 

Thoughts?

 

For the exact list (and another list I'm pondering (help me choose!), see here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320270-2-2k-emperors-children-lists-help-me-decide/

 

Looking at this plus the list you've put on the other forum, the first thing I notice is that it doesn't really need to be Orbital Assault to be legal. The only part of this army that hinges on it is the Tactical Squads, but you can buy them Rhinos or pick a different more beneficial Rite of War (such as 3rd Company) and simply run them as Kakophoni. Alternatively, this would also allow you to take some vehicles to give you some more firepower.

 

I also think that your Praetor would be better as Eidolon, since he is more capable of dealing serious damage on the charge. Leviathans are good dreadnaughts, but I can't get over how expensive they are for a 2K army especially if you are dropping one in. My instincts are telling me it will get focus fired down quickly by whatever anti-armour your opponent has. Smart deployment could see it do a lot of damage however, so this could just be my tactical preferences as opposed to actual weakness. If I was in your place I'd be more inclined to try fitting in two Contemptor-Cortus Dreadnaughts in Pods...

[Frater Cornelius]

I guess this is a matter I need to discuss. While in games of 30k vs 40k, that take place in the 40k era it doesn't really matter what models I use, neither would it in games where this not matter or with the opponent consent.

 

However, I will still need to comply with rules in most games, so I need to see what sort of army I can build with EC that both fits my vision and the models I own, but is as loyal as the Emperor's own slippers.

 

Here it goes:

Hidden Content

After the recent purchase I now own the following:

• 20 Tacs

• 10 Palatines

• 5 Phoenix Guard

• 10 Heavy Supports

• 2 Boxnaughts

• 3 Quad Launchers

• Rylanor

• 1 Sicaran

• 1 Scorpius

• 2 Rhinos

• 1 Land Raider

• 1 Dreadclaw

And a bunch of HQs in the making. I can add some more units to this mix, but within reason.

 

The idea behind this whole army is that once Fulgrim went traitor, the leader started to doubt Fulgrim's perfection he admired and started to think inwards. Honing the spirit and soul against the corrupting powers of Chaos and reach perfection from within as opposed to succumbing to temptation from without.

As such I want a rather patient but still rather agile force that makes good use of the EC melee and combat resolution shenanigans with solid fire support to open metal boxes and take out key elements that should not be charged.

 

I have some ideas, but I wanted to hear what you guys have to say

 

Oh, and the single most important question: With Eidolon not being an option here, what rules do I use to represent the one character that single-handedly led to down this path and ended a search that lastet almost half a year

 

Cheers

Edited March 16, 2016 by Immersturm

[Theredknight]

I suppose rules wise your better off with a praetor if you don't want eidy. I played a campaign and ended up as loyalist, my praetor was Solomon Demeter.

Poor old tarvitz is probably the worst character in the game.

His sword sucks in challenges always hoping for a rend and he always dies to the power fist attacks back from a lowly sarge..Even if his sword was rend 5+ it'd give him a better chance.

 

That being said you haven't really any other options.. Maybe tarvitz, but as a knights errant character. Depends on how your group is I suppose

Edited March 16, 2016 by Theredknight

[Frater Cornelius]

I am sure I can cook up some solid character, be it an Errant or a Praetor. In fact, I just had a fun idea with the Lucid Blade that would fit the patient and defensive nature of th dude. But that's a side issue anyway. The list matters most, as the HQ would need to work in concert with it, not the other way around ;)

[Caustic63]

I guess this is a matter I need to discuss. While in games of 30k vs 40k, that take place in the 40k era it doesn't really matter what models I use, neither would it in games that do not matter or with the opponent consent.

 

However, I will still need to comply with rules in most games, so I need to see what sort of army I can build with EC that both fits my vision and the models I own, but is as loyal as the Emperor's own slippers.

 

Here it goes:

Hidden Content

After the recent purchase I now own the following:

• 20 Tacs

• 10 Palatines

• 5 Phoenix Guard

• 10 Heavy Supports

• 2 Boxnaughts

• 3 Quad Launchers

• Rylanor

• 1 Sicaran

• 1 Scorpius

• 2 Rhinos

• 1 Land Raider

• 1 Dreadclaw

And a bunch of HQs in the making. I can add some more units to this mix, but within reason.

 

The idea behind this whole army is that once Fulgrim went traitor, the leader started to doubt Fulgrim's perfection he admired and started to think inwards. Honing the spirit and soul against the corrupting powers of Chaos and reach perfection from within as opposed to succumbing to temptation from without.

As such I want a rather patient but still rather agile force that makes good use of the EC melee and combat resolution shenanigans with solid fire support to open metal boxes and take out key elements that should not be charged.

 

I have some ideas, but I wanted to hear what you guys have to say

 

Oh, and the single most important question: With Eidolon not being an option here, what rules do I use to represent the one character that single-handedly led to down this path and ended a search that lastet almost half a year

 

Cheers

 

When I look at this list of units you own, I notice a distinct lack of Fast Attack telling me your plan for the army is centred around a handful of close combat units backed up by a gunline of dreadnaughts, armour, and gun batteries. Since you have chosen to run Loyalist Emperor's Children and tossed out the possiblity of running 3rd Company (which is now the standard competitive build for the legion), your first decision is what Rite of War (if any) you want to run. Playing without one is fine, but if you can find one where the drawback doesn't impact your army's performance at all then the effectively "free" benefits are a no-brainer.

 

In your case I'd zero in on two Rites of War in particular - Orphans of Betrayal and Pride of the Legion.

 

OoB makes sense for an army where you want to be Loyalist and no RoW in particular because the benefits are light while the drawbacks are light - its effectively the standard loyalist instead of traitor RoW. Having Hatred against your own legion and not being subject to your own Primarch's Fear are pretty situational, but FNP(4+) in challenges is pretty gold standard for a legion like Emperor's Children where we are forced to challenge and penalized for losing. The only real drawback to this approach is that you need to take three Troops to use all of your Heavy Support selections.

 

Pride of the Legion requires the conversion of your Tactical Squads to Veterans, but allows you to take Phoenix Terms as Troops which frees up an Elites slot for Apothecaries which are a boon in an elite army or spreading out your Dreadnaughts/Quad Guns so they can engage more targets. Overall I'd say this build is more effective then the above as a Rite of War, but it comes at the obvious cost of surrendering a VP if all your Troops die.

 

As a side note, I'd take the Phoenix Guard in a Land Raider Phobos (so you don't take a HS slot) and the Palatine Blades with your character in the Dreadclaw (Fast Attack).

[Terminus]

The FNP in challenges will mostly only help against other Emperors children using swords or lances to take advantage of the initiative. Everyone else will be using power fists. A third troop choice is a heavy tax to pay for that.

 

Also, dedicated loyalist and yet using Kakophoni? For shame! Join us on the traitor side! We have candy. Also "candy" and candy. All guaranteed to make you dandy.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Terminus - Where does it say that I will be using Kakophoni? :P Besides, I tried playing traitor once and the models caught flames and melted away in my hands. Too much righteousness :D

 

@ Caustic63 - You make it sound like not playing 3rd Company is something bad :P If there is anything that I have learned from competitive 40k, it is that it is not the list that wins games, but the player. As such, I would reserve the 3rd Company for bleeding edge games like Eldar WAAC players at the store or something.

As for the lack of FA units, that is easily explained actually. Since I come straight from 40k, I own pretty much no FA unit seeing as they are not very good pretty much across all SM factions. Hence I never had need to buy any and focused to HS units instead. However, I am not opposed to introducing those into my 30k ;)

 

I suppose I should mentioned that my Tacs are magnetized to serve as Vets and my Palatines will have magnetized Jump Packs.

 

As for the RoW, I like OoB. It is fluffy and would serve as my go-to list style for purely narrative games that are set after Istvann III. Pride is also on my list, seeing as I am a fan of Phoenix TDA and elite-looking armies. So we are in agreement there ;)

 

Next to the OoB and Pride I have also gained interest in Maru Skara. I like the concept of using deployment and T1 to set up and kill the opponent in a masterfully executed flurry of striked in T2 and T3. However, I will need a good amount of FA choices and possibly different Elite choices to make it work. Any suggestions? I am not too attached to the Quad Mortars and as mentioned, I can run Palatines with JP if needed.

 

Cheers ;)