[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Deus Mortis]

Sorry, but maru skara still sucks, that's why 3rd company has become a go-to option.

No shriekers, no +1 init, kakophoni useless?

I'm not convinced the Maru Skara does suck mate. I was wary of if so I waited until I played with the Legion for a while before I started using it and, whilst it's not a guaranteed win RoW, I do win more than I lose with it. I find it especially useful for guaranteeing my Lightning comes in turn 2 and usually gets a side armour shot, but I also use it to outflank a pair of contemptor dreads which tear into rear armour with their pair of Kheres assault cannons. Some other things I've yet to try out are outflanking support squads with attached apothecaries, outflanking melta/plasma-gun bikers, outflanking seekers. I think the strength of the Maru Skara comes out when you use it to outflank shooting units into good positions, rather than outflanking cc units.

 

All of this does come with the caviat that I play loyalist Emperor's Children, so I don't care about Sonic Shriekers or Kakophoni. The +1 I I do use but that's just generic legion rules so I have no problem using that.

[Theredknight]

I suppose we all have our play styles.

Each to their own I guess!

You couldn't flanks tac supports though as they are a troops choice

[Deus Mortis]

Aye, but if you throw an Apothecary in there, since you literally cannot have the apothecary separate from the squad, they would get pulled into the Hidden Blade with the apothecary?

[Terminus]

Why would you even want to? But I would say no, the apothecary becomes part of the unit, not the other way around.

[Charlo]

HMMMMMMMMM.....!

 

Certainly a grey area. Personally I'd call it very gamey if you were to do so as it would let you abuse the rite a little...

[Ethrion]

 

Sorry, but maru skara still sucks, that's why 3rd company has become a go-to option.

No shriekers, no +1 init, kakophoni useless?

I'm not convinced the Maru Skara does suck mate. I was wary of if so I waited until I played with the Legion for a while before I started using it and, whilst it's not a guaranteed win RoW, I do win more than I lose with it. I find it especially useful for guaranteeing my Lightning comes in turn 2 and usually gets a side armour shot, but I also use it to outflank a pair of contemptor dreads which tear into rear armour with their pair of Kheres assault cannons. Some other things I've yet to try out are outflanking support squads with attached apothecaries, outflanking melta/plasma-gun bikers, outflanking seekers. I think the strength of the Maru Skara comes out when you use it to outflank shooting units into good positions, rather than outflanking cc units.

 

All of this does come with the caviat that I play loyalist Emperor's Children, so I don't care about Sonic Shriekers or Kakophoni. The +1 I I do use but that's just generic legion rules so I have no problem using that.

 

How would you get support squads to outflank using the Maru Skara? I thought it was only fast attack options or elites that could do that... oh wait...does attaching an apothecary allow the support squad to outflank too?!

[Deus Mortis]

I don't know that it would let you abuse it per say. I mean it would let you outflank most things from the troop selection, heavy support squads and command squads. But you still can only outflank 1-3 units. I suppose I wouldn't consider outflanking any of those units considerably more powerful than what you can already outflank.

 

However, it is a very loose interpretation of the effects of the rite. To be honest, having read over it again and seen the bit where is specifically mentions independent character being attached to the unit being able to outflank with the unit makes me think that the 'spirit' of the rule is that units joined by the apothecary can't outflank. I mean, you could try and argue that the squad is attached to the apothecary but then in the apothecary's entry it specifically says it is attached to the unit, not the other way around. Hmmm...guess I just talked myself out of it.

 

In any case, you can still outflank a bevy of decent units and I still stand by the fact that the Maru Skara is a good rite. I just requires a little finesse to pull off.

[GorgeousGoat]

I've been lurking and reading the RoW discussions of Maru Skara vs III Company Elite. 

I feel they are easily EC's strongest in terms of fluff and competitive, I'm open to others and play others but they are my favourites. 

 

However, I do feel the spam pain/concern playing III Company and my opponents know to focus these down asap, to the point where Laernen Alpha Legion Terminators with chainfists and volkite charged them instead of the 3 laser destroyer vindicators next to them.. I was like  .

But back to the point - Maru Skara is limiting in which choices to outflank really, it's either the Terminators in a Spartan (DT), Contemptors, Jetbikes (always, always do this - it's hilariously fluffy and amazing) and/or Lightnings for me. 

The guaranteed reserves are amazing and have a real game changing impact if your dice don't hate you I've found (the new FW EC dice are fickle for me but beautiful).

 

In summary:

I like to swap between the 2 as it keeps my friends and opponents guessing and also I'd get sick of having all these wonderfully expensive toys and just using one or two of them all the time. 

p.s. please can Phoenix Terminators get a points decrease.. I charged Gal Vorbak with them (+ a Chaplain) and I got my *** handed to me!! And these are 'elite' honour guard.... grumble grumble

[Deus Mortis]

I've been lurking and reading the RoW discussions of Maru Skara vs III Company Elite. 

I feel they are easily EC's strongest in terms of fluff and competitive, I'm open to others and play others but they are my favourites. 

 

However, I do feel the spam pain/concern playing III Company and my opponents know to focus these down asap, to the point where Laernen Alpha Legion Terminators with chainfists and volkite charged them instead of the 3 laser destroyer vindicators next to them.. I was like  .

But back to the point - Maru Skara is limiting in which choices to outflank really, it's either the Terminators in a Spartan (DT), Contemptors, Jetbikes (always, always do this - it's hilariously fluffy and amazing) and/or Lightnings for me. 

The guaranteed reserves are amazing and have a real game changing impact if your dice don't hate you I've found (the new FW EC dice are fickle for me but beautiful).

 

In summary:

I like to swap between the 2 as it keeps my friends and opponents guessing and also I'd get sick of having all these wonderfully expensive toys and just using one or two of them all the time. 

p.s. please can Phoenix Terminators get a points decrease.. I charged Gal Vorbak with them (+ a Chaplain) and I got my *** handed to me!! And these are 'elite' honour guard.... grumble grumble

 

I don't think Terminators, Contemptors, Jetbikes and Lightnings are the only options. Storm Eagles loaded up with psychos, Attack Bikes, Land Speeders, Javelins, all of these are solid choices. The bikes/speeders can be loaded for bear against armour or infantry as needs must and you can put whatever the hell you like in the Storm Eagle plus the flyer itself is a pretty locked and loaded.

 

As for Phoenix Guard, they probably do need points decrease, but they aren't bad. Now that they are WS 5 and can Sweeping Advance they've certainly got more viable, especially as a retinue for Fulgrim. You can't charge them and Fulgrim into another Primarch and their retinue, because Phoenix Guard really need to be able to run down 2+ armour after the first round of combat otherwise they're dead in the water. 

 

I would suspect that the reason they bounced off the Gal Vorbak is due to their 2 W (which Phoenix Guard struggle to cut through) and T 5. But still  a unit of 5  (using Zealot) should have inflicted 4 wounds, so killed 2 Gal Vorbak, and then the Gal Vorbak should have basically been hoping for Rends, so maybe your dice were bad?

 

To be honest, the main thing I wish Phoenix Guard has was the option that Suzerains have where they can become a command squad. I mean, they are a retinue for Fulgrim but they don't get anything like "Favoured of Horus/Mortarion"?

[GorgeousGoat]

Apologies - completely forgot about the Javelins for Maru Skara and I use them (ML and MM) LOL!

 

Storm Eagle though - if you put a unit in it, can it still Maru Skara with the unit in it unless that unit is also an Elite or FA? I've been playing it that if it is not, it cannot outflank automatically, hence, it hasn't been the most effective for me. 

 

Phoenix Guard, you run down a unit with Sweeping Advance at I6 minimum (Challenge and charge etc) then you are out in the open and shot or psychic shrieked to pieces  .

It's happened to me so often. I run Cataprachti now as the 4+ invul is just so much better, plus more versatile/reliable and higher strength AP2. 

 

But the Gal Vorback had Erebus so re-rolled to hit and he did get lucky with Daemon saves and Rends (it was the Champ with the S10 powerfist - killed 2 on his own). 3W model is just too tough at T5 to hurt!! 

 

Completely agree about the command squad for Fulgrim choice etc by the way!! 

Edited September 5, 2016 by GorgeousGoat

[Deus Mortis]

I'll be honest, I just assumed that since the unit starts the game embarked in the transport, and the transport is outflanking then they would be able to as well. I can't give you a rule where is says so, but I also can't find one that says it can't and, to be honest, it just seems logically consistent. I mean if a spartan full of terminators can outflank why not a storm eagle full of terminators (or some unit of a similar size). However, I don't own a storm eagle (yet) and so I've never actually had this problem on the tabletop.

 

Also you always do Sweeping Advances at your unmodified Initiative, so Phoenix Guard are actually only Sweeping at I 4 (if I understand the rules correctly).

 

You are right that Sweeping does leave them out in the open but that's why they shouldn't be up on their own. The Living Icon is a clue that they are meant to be used as part of a combined assault on multiple fronts rather than a spearhead to make a way for the rest of your army. If the Phoenix Guard run down their targets, but all across your opponent's line they have several other units running down their opponents and breaking through then they won't be able to gun them all down at once (in theory). Your Phoenix Guard may well still die because they're big, shiny and scary, but if that means the rest of your assault units break through and start cutting through your opponent, then that's a win overall right? Phoenix Guard are definitely still over-costed somewhat, but they seem even worse when you try to use them like Justaerin or Firedrakes. I don't deny Cataphractii armour is more survivable, but somehow it always looked too bulky to me to be part of the Emperor's Children so I never use it!

 

Unlucky about the Gal Vorbak combat. Multi-wound models are hard to deal with to be honest, that's why they're such a good speed bump because they just take forever to chew through. Out of curiosity, how many Phoenix Guard did you have and how many Gal Vorbak were there? I'm curious to see how the math-hammer would compare to what actually happened for you.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Deus Mortis

[Terminus]

The dark martyr will have a S10 power fist and crush half the squad single handed.

 

Phoenix terminators fold the moment they run into multiple wounds, fearless, and/or high invulnerable saves. Given that these are basically what you're going to face in elite melee units, and it relegates them to a bully unit. Their base cost is like 40 points more than Justaerin, when they should probably be 40 points cheaper than them. It's a ~200+ unit rather than a 300+ unit as it is currently priced.

[Deus Mortis]

Aye, but are we actually going to see them get a points decrease? I mean, we just had the LA:AoDL book and they changes the WS and how Tartaros terminator armour works, but did nothing about the points so I can't imagine they will change them in the immediate future.

 

Maybe that relegates them to a bully unit and you can't use them to face the other legion's elite terminators. But, if you know that, then you can use them as an effective bully unit and form an effective gunline behind them to deal with the elites (or whittle them down enough that the Phoenix Guard can bully them too).

 

Alternatively, if Phoenix Guard are over-costed, take some units that are under-costed and it should all equal out somewhere along the way!

[Terminus]

They might once the Legions book is reprinted to include the upcoming Legions, but before that I wouldn't even bother with them and just bring stuff that is actually effective to the table. You could use a unit as a base for a sweet command squad, and salvage the spears for your various characters.  As is, I would only basically bring them with Fulgrim in tow as a deathstar, because he can deal with things they can struggle with, plus his resolution bonus and their win on ties should keep you winning.

 

WIthout those buffs, they aren't even an effective bully unit. If they don't break the unit they charge, they are just swinging power swords afterwards.

[GorgeousGoat]

The reason you can do it with a Spartan as it becomes a Dedicated Transport for the unit (Elites) - just like Alpha Legion can infiltrate rhinos etc as the Legiones Astartes special rule from the unit is extended to the Dedicated Transport I am led to believe. 

If you put Elite terminators in a Storm Eagle, or Palantines etc then I'd have no issue with it etc. Otherwise you're outflanking a unit entry that is not Elite or FA etc. 

 

I've actually read the rules now and everyday is a schoolday!! I thank you sir for pointing this out - I am still able to add the D3 for crusader onto the sweeping advance so from memory I don't believe I've cheated anyone and certainly not deliberately! 

 

Oh, I should point out the squad of 6 and chaplain charged the Gal Vorbak in ZM and they helped a unit of veterans win further against a larger unit of tacticals etc with the +1 Combat Resolution. 

I usually only take them in ZM not but I cannot agree more with the honourable gentleman Terminus about how much they suck compared to other Terminators in a meta where shooting is key. But taking 300+ points for AP2 at initiative when most 2+ armour saves are terminators or other elite units, with good invulnerables etc.

I agree that Cataphracti don't look as good but they just have a lot more versatility than PG, anti-armour with chainfists, TH on sergeants for concussing Primarchs or multi-wound T5+ models. (Gal Vorbak).

PG are saved for fluffy games where the narrative is more than important than being "competitive" for me. Either give them 2W's for a slight pts increase or buff the Phoenix Spear to be AP2 at all times etc (Like White Scars have with their Glaive).

[Deus Mortis]

Oh don't start on the White Scar's glaive! The fact that you can pick S User AP 3 or S +1 AP 2 Two-handed at will whereas we have to get the charge and then it only lasts a turn. I mean theirs is just some mongol weapon, but it's better than a weapon that is supposed to be an approximation of the freaking guardian spears! Plus their apothecaries can take it. To be honest I'm just hoping that in the phoenix spears get better in time... 

[Charlo]

True - but the spears are balanced around the fact that EC have all the bonuses to combat resolution, sweeping and striking first as well as WS debuffs.

 

Just need to break the enemy on the charge, which currently you will do better than WS etc.

[GorgeousGoat]

However, back to the Tactica:

 

I've just got 3 Laser Destroyer Vindicators and wondering what successes people have had running those with the new squadron rules, or would you bother to run all 3 etc?

I am just thinking the twin-linked (up to 3) shots with ordnance will help me deal with LoW Fellblades/Typhons and Spartans etc. 

[Theredknight]

However, back to the Tactica:

 

I've just got 3 Laser Destroyer Vindicators and wondering what successes people have had running those with the new squadron rules, or would you bother to run all 3 etc?

I am just thinking the twin-linked (up to 3) shots with ordnance will help me deal with LoW Fellblades/Typhons and Spartans etc.

Youl have to get up fast, to close that 36" range your pretty much sacrificing a turn of shooting if you need to move them, in which case flat out.

 

I have seen good results from having 2 las vindis and a demolisher cannon one at the front tanking shots. It also has machine spirit enabling it to shoot at other targets.

[GorgeousGoat]

That's a great shout about having the demolisher cannon/machine spirit to tank up the shots etc. 

 

But still looking at around 400pts which in the next 2,500pts tournament I've got coming up seems a bit steep - I've had success with MB Jetbike squads and the LR Phobos can kick out some damage but wondering outside of quad mortars how an EC army would deal with an armoured breakthrough etc. 

[Caustic63]

I've tried running a Maru Skara army using Assault Squads + Apothecaries + Eidolon taking into account the recent changes to the red book. While they are unlikely to get any first turn charges, the combination of movement boosts is really intriguing and makes for a fun, fast rush list that gunlines have difficulty dealing with. Generally I stick the Champion in a unit of Jetbikes or run him on his own as a disruptor unit which can sometimes yield dividends.

 

In order to be good though a list like this must be really solidly built. 

[Theredknight]

I've tried running a Maru Skara army using Assault Squads + Apothecaries + Eidolon taking into account the recent changes to the red book. While they are unlikely to get any first turn charges, the combination of movement boosts is really intriguing and makes for a fun, fast rush list that gunlines have difficulty dealing with. Generally I stick the Champion in a unit of Jetbikes or run him on his own as a disruptor unit which can sometimes yield dividends.

 

In order to be good though a list like this must be really solidly built.

What are your flanking units in this?

[Terminus]

I'll take a crack at a list.

 

HQ: Eidolon with jump pack - 205

HQ: Champion with artificer, refractor, jump pack, phoenix spear, mb - 145 (this guy sucks so much)

Elites: 2x Apothecaries with jump packs/swords - 140

Elites: 2x Cortus Contemptor Dreadnoughts, fist/chainfist, double grav (hidden blade) - 350

Troops: 10x Assault Marines, combat shields, 1 sword/1 axe, Sgt with artificer/power fist (Champ goes here) - 250

Troops: 10x Assault Marines, combat shields, 1 sword/1 axe, Sgt with artificer/spear/mb (Eidolon goes here) - 255

Fast Attack: Lighting Strike Fighter with 2x kraken missiles, 2x phosphex clusters, auguries/servitors (hidden blade) - 225

Heavy Support: Leviathan with melta lance/phosphex/drill/volkite/ceramite/pod - 440

Heavy Support: Deredeo with Aiolos and Anvilus- 220

Heavy Support: Scorpius Whirlwind - 115

2345

 

Pretty low model count, but lots of brutality. items are pretty self-explanatory, Leviathan drops turn one in his pod to be a big distraction and take out the hardest target on the other side.  Whirlwind and Deredeo target infantry and transport vehicles as needed.  Turn two automatic entry of Lighting and two Cortus Contemptors.  The lightning load-out is something I've been playing with and it's pretty hilarious. Fly over something and drop two S5 AP2 phosphex templates on them, then still shoot 3 tank-killing shots at something else. The reason I took more clusters rather than kraken missiles is because the Lightning will probably die after this run anyway, and the bombs are 20 points cheaper and not hindered by Jink. Plus I feel the list needs more ways to deal with infantry with the tank hunting more or less covered. 

 

The assault squads do what assault squads do, try not to die with their invuln and FNP, and charge softened up targets. With 2 power swords, axe, fist, and phoenix spear in each unit, they hit like a truck (not to mention potential hammer of wrath).

 

The list has 155 points of play left depending on your needs.  Options I would consider are bulking out the assault squads, adding a Javelin squadron as part of the Hidden Blade, dropping the Scorpius for a pair of squadroned Vindicators, or dropping the Scorpius and adding some Sky Slayers with multi-meltas. Another option is to drop the Lightning and bring a Seeker squad for another scoring unit and some pin-point AP2 that gets delivered reliably. This option should also leave enough points for a Javelin to shore up the tank-hunting capability you gave up in the Lightning. So:

 

FA: 6x Seekers with combi-plasmas, Sgt with artificer armor/MB, Rhino with multi-melta and dozer blade (hidden blade)- 300

FA: Javelin with lascannon, multi-melta, HK missile (hidden blade) - 80

 

Some may accuse me of being biased towards dreadnoughts, but I assure you this has nothing to do with the fact that the Relic Contemptor is super pretty and festooned with aquilas that would make it a perfect pair to the EC Contemptor.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Terminus

[Caustic63]

 

I've tried running a Maru Skara army using Assault Squads + Apothecaries + Eidolon taking into account the recent changes to the red book. While they are unlikely to get any first turn charges, the combination of movement boosts is really intriguing and makes for a fun, fast rush list that gunlines have difficulty dealing with. Generally I stick the Champion in a unit of Jetbikes or run him on his own as a disruptor unit which can sometimes yield dividends.

 

In order to be good though a list like this must be really solidly built.

What are your flanking units in this?

 

 

In this arrangement I typically use:

 

Outriders w TL Plasmaguns (x5)

Javelin Speeder w Missiles, MM, HKs (x2)

Primaris Lightning w Kraken Missiles

 

If I have the room I also like to have a Dreadclaw riding unit of Terminators (Chainfist Cataphractii) or Palatine Blades.

[Terminus]

^ For what it's worth, the Champion can go into the Hidden Blade and give those outriders a bit more punch if they get engaged (and you still have the option to split off from the unit after outflanking)

Edited September 28, 2016 by Terminus