[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Hesh Kadesh]

Fearless? Whoa there...

[Caustic63]

Hmm, it's definitely a good idea to try and get some use out of our nearly useless kakophoni, wording is 'units that have wounds caused by these weapons take a leadership test at the end of the shooting phase' take a test.

 

Then they have to fail their leadership test, (if they have vex re rolling)

 

Legion Vexillas only work against Morale Tests. They don't work against any other type of leadership check like Pinning checks, Kakophoni, or Mortarion's Shadow of the Reaper SR.

[Theredknight]

That's a little bit of a bonus I suppose, just got to get through all the rest! For that amount of points you could have 2 fellblades though or a Reaver

[Hesh Kadesh]

They'd be better as Salvo 1/2, Rending, heavy just makes them equally useless.

[Caustic63]

I like the idea of putting Palatine Blades inside a Dreadclaw Transport. It could even form the basis of a fairly competitive list, whether you choose to run them as a Drop Army or simply include them in an Emperor's Children force using a different Rite of War (or none at all). Dreadclaws are capable of arriving Turn 1, positioning via Flat Out and Jinking to protect themselves before delivering their cargo Turn 2. Using this arrangement you are virtually guaranteed to get the charge, and can alter the model count of each squad without penalty to ensure added characters fit inside.  Clever addition of units that support this aggressive style of play such as Outriders, Jetbikes, and Fire Raptors can make the army really synergize nicely.

 

Delivery of Phoenix Terminators/Normal Terminators using this transport vehicle is also possible and effective, though there is no room to be found for attached characters and low model count might hamper this strategy. A neat idea is to run a squad of Chainfist Terminators this way and use them as Spartan hunters.

[Theredknight]

Ok so I am playing a little group tournament, with fixed 2k all comers list it's taken me ages to play about with it but so far.

 

 

 

Fulgrim fire blade

 

Eidolon

 

Apothecary

 

10 palatines, 5 Phoenix spears, 2ps, 3 standard.

 

Spartan dozer

 

Scorpius

 

Tactical x10 rhino, dozer

 

Tactical x10 rhino, dozer

 

Legion dread, chainfist, ccw

 

Legion dread, chainfist, ccw

 

My idea is if possible, dreads will move up either side of spartan, rhinos behind them like this

 

 

 

Dread. Spartan. Dread

 

Rhino. Rhino

 

 

I think dreads will get +1 to charge if in 12" of the hull (eidolon)

 

And I can choose a suitable bonus with fulgrim.

 

It's an all comer list, apparently other primarchs are about, one of them has vulkan, 10 pyroclasts and that disgusting av14 dreadnought that is immune to just about everything (including armourbane) for the same price as crappy rylanor..but that's another story lol

 

So..idea is they advance as best as possible like this, dreads crack transports or take the d3 flamer hits for charging, fulgrim and co destroy anyone else. If I need seperate units, I can pull eidolon out of formation (due to fulgrims 5+ out of combat)

 

I use nuncios to call in scorpius fire onto I armoured units.

 

At least..that's my tactic..personally I think 2k is a bit small for primarchs but hey, at least fulgrim can deal with most of them, or I can accept a challenge with the palatines and destroy the accompanying squad with fulgrim and is 9 attacks lol especially nice if they are red butchers or fire drakes (instant death!)

 

If all my dreads and rhinos get smashed t1, then il just cry,

 

One of the choices I can make is swap the 2 dreads for a contemptor and javelin.. But I think I'm better off with target saturation.

[Caustic63]

@ Theredknight

 

I feel like your list would be better if you went with Pride of the Legion and swapped the Tacticals in Rhinos for Veterans in Rhinos. While this would require some major adjustments to your list to accommodate the points changes, Veterans are worlds better as mechanized troops. They can very cheaply take squad-wide melta bombs, have versatile special rules, and can take the right amount of specials/suspensor heavies to do some effective top hatch firing out of the Rhinos they are riding in. Also if your strategy is melee dreadnaughts then they definitely should be Contemptors for the additional protection and Fleet.

 

All this is pretty expensive, which probably entails you cutting Fulgrim to make space for changes. The combination of both him and Eidolon is really expensive, and at 2000 points you're likely to find you don't have the points to take other necessary units like a Sicarian Venator/Primaris Lightning to deal with enemy Spartans (which are pretty common in 30K) for instance.

 

IMO Your list would be greatly complemented by Outflanking Missile Javelins. Fulgrim helps them arrive on time, and they could easily pick up side armour shots of the type that even Cassian Dracos would be vulnerable to (his side and back armour are much weaker, and with no Invulnerable save he's an ideal target for that kind of tactic).

[Sanct]

drop the chainfist on the dreads.  You lose an attack (unless you're doubling them) and you're already S10.  Then consider putting them in drop pods and adding plasma blasters. 200 points of deep striking, ablative armoured av12 who can shoot 4 BS5 plasma at those pyro's.  Or put some pain on cassian the dread (who is costly in extremis)

Edited February 9, 2015 by Sanct

[Raktra]

You don't lose an attack, they're both specialist weapons.

[Theredknight]

Hmm good suggestions, but dropping fulgrim is a bit of a no no. Other primarchs I'm looking at dealing with are mr unkillable, curze and angron at least. Possibly alpharius.

 

Our legion rules aren't on par with theirs, so fulgrim will hopefully counter or tie them up in combat. Otherwise it's a shooting based list, and that isn't what we do.

 

Reason for legion dreads? Price! I'd love contemptors, but I need to keep to an all rounder list here. I could drop the scorpius, but points wise it's to cost effective at killing marines.

 

Again with swapping Tac marines for vets, I just can't find the points!

 

I do need the chainfists on dreds though, as I want to kill something with a14 either land raider or Spartans.

 

Looking at my opponents. I am 1of 3ppl with a spartan ( out of 10 ish ppl), others are foot slogging. Which makes me think drop palatines, to take a kharbydis, a unit of bp ccw Tac marines, and I can fit in a cheeky primaris with kraken and a couple if sunfury or phosphex.. Hmm decisions decisions..

 

I'd like to try and use our meagre legion rules if I can..

[Sanct]

How does the apothecary run?  He can't fit in the rhinos and can't join the palatines.

 

Having primarchs in 2k is tight.  IMO your group should ban them at below 2.5k.

 

You don't lose an attack, they're both specialist weapons.

 

Dreadnought ccw aren't. So paying points to go from 2 x melee to 1x melee, 1 x specialist loses an attack.

[Theredknight]

Yes I spotted that, fulgrim only needs wound takers to get him into combat really.

 

And yes I completely agree, 2k is silly for primarchs..

But if I don't take one il get hammered so it's a bit like an arms race, I have nothing that will kill vulkan or angron at range sure enough, maybe chip some wounds off, but fulgrim is my best weapon against them.

 

Just hopefully don't suffer concussed but even then I'm Still higher initiative than him.. And I'm in with a chance of blind.

 

So now I have:

 

Fulgrim

 

Eidolon

 

16 tacticools bp ccw weapon sgt has a spear.

 

Apothecary p sword aug scanner

 

Kharbydis.

 

Tac squad rhino

 

Tac squad rhino

 

Contemptor c fist plasma blaster

 

Contemptor c fist plasma blaster

 

Scorpius .

 

Should I swap out a contemptor for a Mortis contemptor? Or keep all assault base? They won't get the +d3 to sweep as they aren't astartes ec?

 

My idea is drop the kharbydis and burn them, turbo boost in shooting phase back to my lines. Then advance with the rest again and assault t 2.

 

If I come up against 10 pyroclasts I will sacrifice my apothecary to take the d3 wounds hammering.

Then I should destroy them in combat, with fulgrim challenging vulkan hopefully, if not he will slice the men up after beating the sgt..literally.

Other legions will just take the pain of the unit charging and suffer the consequences..

 

Is that better? I don't want to spread out to much, and hopefully it will use all the bonuses of eidolon and fulgrim together to boost sweeping advance bonuses?

[Slips]

Don't dreadnoughts ignore Specialist Weapon?

[Sanct]

Don't dreadnoughts ignore Specialist Weapon?

 

the 'unlike other models' line in the walker entry makes it a modification of the mulitple close combat weapon rule not a exception to the specialist weapon rule

[Caustic63]

@ Theredknight

 

I like this new list a bit better, though its a shame you couldn't find a way to keep the Palatine Blades cause they are really good in close combat. Are you certain that your Apothecary can leave the squad unless he's a Primus Medicae? Since you have Fulgrim (and therefore cannot use Eidolon's warlord trait), would you consider swapping him for a Chaplain? The Hatred would be a considerable boost to the squad.

[Theredknight]

Ok how about this for a shake up

 

Fulgrim

Chaplain bare bones

 

Tac squad rhino

Tac squad rhino

15 bp ccw tacs

Apothecary

Contemptor 2 ccw

Contemptor 2 ccw

Contemptor Mortis tl kheres

Kharbydis

Scorpius

 

They are all basic, but that's quite a lot to fit In There..what do we think about the Mortis? I was tempted to go for javelins or jetbikes instead, but I think any enemy will have a hard time dealing with that.. I was even tempted to stick a third contemptor in this instead..ouch.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Have you considered the Deredeo instead? It's just that much more effective than a Contemptor Mortis. Are you using a Rite of War? And are you using Fireblade with Fulgrim? Unless facing a lot of Walkers, the Blade of the Laer is really weak.

[Slips]

The Plasma Deredeo with the +1 Invulnerable bubble is also something worth consideration - especially for units that wouldn't normally have an invulnerable or have a weaker one.

 

Granted, its still sacrificing a HS option that could be better used in an AA/AT role and will be at a much higher risk of getting annihilated due to how close it'll potentially be.

 

Then again, its dishing out Heavy 4 Plasma Shots without Gets Hot! or a Heavy 1 5" Plasma Shot with Gets Hot! and a 4++ instead of the usual 5++.

 

 

Consider Deredeos at the very least...

[Theredknight]

Yes, fire blade is a better choice overall I think.

I don't have a row. Master crafted paragon blade is much better..

 

I have thought about deredeo, It's something I would like, the missile launchers are pretty much an auto include on it.

 

Basically as it is, it's the Mortis or primaris at the moment, until I get a deredeo for now.

I have wondered about the weakness of kharbydis though, as it cannot jink against sicarans, and could get shredded in a turn of fire while hovering..

[Caustic63]

The Plasma Deredeo with the +1 Invulnerable bubble is also something worth consideration - especially for units that wouldn't normally have an invulnerable or have a weaker one.

 

Granted, its still sacrificing a HS option that could be better used in an AA/AT role and will be at a much higher risk of getting annihilated due to how close it'll potentially be.

 

Then again, its dishing out Heavy 4 Plasma Shots without Gets Hot! or a Heavy 1 5" Plasma Shot with Gets Hot! and a 4++ instead of the usual 5++.

 

 

Consider Deredeos at the very least...

 

Where is this Plasma Deredeo you speak of?

[Slips]

 

The Plasma Deredeo with the +1 Invulnerable bubble is also something worth consideration - especially for units that wouldn't normally have an invulnerable or have a weaker one.

 

Granted, its still sacrificing a HS option that could be better used in an AA/AT role and will be at a much higher risk of getting annihilated due to how close it'll potentially be.

 

Then again, its dishing out Heavy 4 Plasma Shots without Gets Hot! or a Heavy 1 5" Plasma Shot with Gets Hot! and a 4++ instead of the usual 5++.

 

 

Consider Deredeos at the very least...

 

Where is this Plasma Deredeo you speak of?

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303013-horus-heresy-weekender-2015-news-book-v-tempest/?p=3943013

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303013-horus-heresy-weekender-2015-news-book-v-tempest/?p=3943488

Here you go.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Against a Sicaran, you're going to be facing S7. S7 against AV12 is nothing spectacular. Assuming 6 shots, it's 2 glances. Sure, you can't jink, but it's only -2HP, you have 5, and it can't roll a Destroyed result.

[Theredknight]

So iv figured out my list finally decided that fulgrim was a bit to expensive at 2k, and I need boots on the ground. So my final list apart from tweaks is

 

Eidolon, j pack

 

Assault squad 15, 3 pwr weapons

Tac squad, rhino, nuncio

Tac squad, rhino.nuncio

Tac squad 15 bp ccw, nuncio

Apothecary

 

Legion Mortis dread, tl lascannons

Rapier weapons x2 laser destroyers

Attack bikes x2 autocannons meltabombs

Jetbikes x4 volkite culverin, melta bombs

Javelin missiles, 2x hk missiles

Scorpius whirly

 

I like it for fluffiness and it's a fast paced army that can whip round with scoring troops.

[Theredknight]

Ok feedback, I was tabled turn 4 with this list arg! 10/10 losing streak..

So, To many troops,

Rule query.. The crusader d3 to sweeping advance.. In nowhere there does it say add to your initiative roll, 2 people have come back to me and said it is added to the moment part (after sweeping) has this been questioned? In the rule it states when rolling for sweeping advance, it doesn't say plus d3 to initiative when rolling for sweeping advance..

If that is true, it's another nail in the coffin for purple marines..

[Slips]

I thought it was Add D3 to whatever your rolling when making a sweeping advance? Aka +D3 Initiative in this case, no?

 

Because no matter how you look at it, you're still adding D3 to the result regardless of if its applied at the moment of or afterwards.

 

If you're finding the list too squishy, it might be time to add some heavy hitters like Terminators, Contemptors, Deredeos, Fire Raptors, Land Raiders, Spartan(s), etc.

Because from what I'm seeing, you're pretty much just an army of 3+ saves and Av11. Not that resilient when compared to Av 13-14 and 2+ / 2+ with Invulnerables

Quad Mortars might also be a better choice than Lasdestroyers because of its versatility.

 

The below suggestion isn't taking into account points limit. More what I feel would work ok together while having decent durability / damage potential. Feel Free to mix and match the recommendations to build a 2k List.

 

HQ:

Eidolon JP

Primus JP

(optional) Primus TDA 1 Handed Weapon (he still has the Needle Pistol in TDA so technically gains +1 Attack for it)

 

Elites:

5-10 Palatine Blades, JP, 2+ Phoenix Spears

5-10 Phoenix Guad (If I'm reading this right, if you stack enough rules / cause enough Shenanigans, the Sarge can have I7/8 on the charge/challenge?)

Land Raider Phobos (5) or Landraider Spartan (10) (add TDA Primus only at 10)

Rapier Batteries: 2-3 Mortars

(optional) Contemptor 2 DCCW 2 Graviton Guns

 

Troops:

10 Tactical Squad, Rhino, Vexilla, Sarge Gubbins as normal

10 Tactical Squad, Rhino, Vexilla, Sarge Gubbins as normal

 

Fast Attack:

3+ Jetbikes, Melta Bombs, Culverin Optional Sarge & Usual Gear

 

Heavy Support:

Deredeo, Autocannons, Aiolos Missiles, (opt) Armored Ceramite

Deredeo, Autocannons, Aiolos Missiles, (opt) Armored Ceramite

Fire Raptor

 

A lot more "cookie cutter" I feel but has more Staying power and more Reliable Dakka. Your Lowest (front) AV value is 12 and its on the Fire Raptor and you have a decent brick of 2+ Saves in an Av14 Melta Immune Box.

 

Also, the Aiolos Missile Always hit Side Armor and can shoot at targets regardless of intervening terrain. At S6 Ap3 Heavy 3 and 60" you can technically kill 6 Marines (considering 2 Deredeos) per turn starting on turn 1. Costing 35 points, if you kill a minimum of 3 marines, its already made its points back.

 

The Autocannons are S8 Heavy 4 Sunder at 48" with Skyfire / Interceptor when needed. S8 And Sunder permits more reliable glancing to death and with 2 of them (deredeos) + Quad Mortars with Shatter Shells (also S8  Heavy 4 Sunder, coincidentally) you can pump out 16 S8 Sunder Shots a turn at ground targets.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Slipstreams