[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Theredknight]

I wrote ws1? He came in at i5, mashed my sgt, and I failed my blind test.

Eidolon was i1 due to his hammer, I was charged.

But ALL guys In the unit were ws1.

Hitting on 5s sucks!

The praetor was in a j pack unit, I eventualky finished him with hvy bolters and las to theface from the fellblade.

 

Sorry slip, what do you mean, my 'heavy hitters'?

I was tempted to pop some quad mortars on there. 2 or 3 would be nice instead of the flanking jav, although to be fair, it melted the rear or a Mortis before it died.

 

Oh and the sicaran was dead on his t1 to a lucky quad las shot, and I managed to fail my 4+ cover for it.. Just the way it rolled. aNd cards I picked up..

 

Ironically I chose that side when i won the roll off, if I'd have had his I may have been closer or won just on my cards. But who knows it was still a good game.

[Slips]

Hnnh, the Sicarian also getting instagibbed turn 1 really does suck...

 

By heavy hitters I mean anything that one can reasonably assume will make its points back and then some or equivalent such as Palatine Blades when they get the charge, Eidolon, a Primaris-Lightning loaded for Bare, a Fire Raptor, etc.

 

The fact that the Flanking Jav got a Contemptor is a good enough reason to keep on in then :P Maybe have a second one that would outflank opposite to the first to maybe get some better shots in.

 

Against a JP force (or one led by a JP core, at least) quad mortars would have probably been a good idea. Just shower them in Frag Shells and pray for that pinning check fail. After which you just turn the tables on it.

 

Also, how did you deploy? Conservatively or aggressively? In this scenario, having the Fellblade out in front of say, your LR and Sicarian to block LoS or otherwise keep them safe would have probably worked out better. Because loosing ~400 Points worth of Main Battle Tanks turn one really hurts.

 

Either way, finishing 9-6 means that you're getting there. A bit more fine tuning and you might get the desired results.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Wait quad mortars have pinning? I'll need to check my book again. They don't get it from being barrage anymore. All I know is that they have -1 to pinning.

 

About your game sounded like a close match. Also don't feel bad if you got bad card results. At my club I'm infamous for getting really bad results. Like cause a moral check on tyranids or capture all of his bases. Stuff that takes a miracle to cause. I'm wondering but have you thought about subbing the fell blade for fulgrim? Looking at his rules he adds ALOT to your army. I think my favorite part is that he can choose master of ambush and helps you create an aggressive army. Also doesn't hurt that he's pretty good in cc.

[Theredknight]

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g449/ben_fabz/06099E36-6559-47A4-A8CF-2B40341141F1.jpg

 

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g449/ben_fabz/B8D52329-6586-4D86-A4FE-EBC41F077F16.jpg

 

Here was my deployment, yes, shielding maybe would have been better..

 

Meh, it's the way it goes, he did well to survive, I couldnt finish off his fire raptor, had 1hp left or Id have got d3 vps, as I killed praetor and plasma gunner as well.

[Theredknight]

I was thinking as well, Id like a little allied force, just to keep things interesting.

Which units or legion do you think would be good?

Soh reavers?

Wb gal vorbak?

Or more foot slogging iron warriors or iron hands?

Edited April 21, 2015 by Theredknight

[Caustic63]

I really like the look of your Emperor's Children army Theredknight. You seem to bounce around quite a bit with your list composition so it's difficult to give you some concrete advise on how to improve your game play performance if that is what you are looking for. Looking at your army list:

 

 

I played today 3500 my army was

Eidolon j pack

16man assault squad, 3 pwr weapons, sgt art armour, spear and shield.

16 tacs, sgt combi flamer, art armoyr
16 tacs sgt power fist, art armour

10 palatines 5 spears, 5 p swords

Phobos arm ceremite
Predators x2 , h bolter sponsons and pintle h bolter

Sicaran
Deredeo with launcher
2 apothecaries with p sword and volkite

10 Tac support squad volkite calivers
Javelin tl las and mm
Fellblade armoured ceremite, pintle h bolter

 

I'm thinking that your Palatines might be a bit too heavily equipped (4 Spears should be fine) and that their delivery mechanism (Land Raider) would be much more points effeciant as a Dreadclaw Drop Pod. With the points you save from doing this you could afford a Primus Medicae to run with the Assault Squad to boost their survivability, improve the weapons of the Predators to Executioner Destroyers (your Sicarian, Deredeo and Calivers already cover the non-AP3 mid to high strength shooting, so you need some AP2) and add an additional Javelin with TL Missiles since Max Missiles is the best way to run Javelin Speeders in the role you've picked for them.

[Theredknight]

Thanks! I just need to do transfers and weathering now (im painting my imperialis board for a bit of a change)

 

Yes I have been playtesting different army types to see what their effectiveness is like.

I agree with the dreadclaw, it's been on my get list now and will be on my next trip to Whw.

A friend plays a dreadclaw with his sevetar, and that guy is nearly always in combat t2 and he is a lot worse that eidolon I think.especially in a challenge.

 

You might be right about the palatines, I stick the spears on their for a bit of ap2, but il get a couple of rends with regular swords too I suppose.

 

With the changes to the working of the crusader rule in 7th that someone pointed out before, I'm tempted to give both tacticals ccw and push forward where I need to.

 

My idea to trial the preds was to keep them cheap, and keep them dakka ish. Surprisingly they didn't get shot at with anything nasty really until t3, and one of them died.

They fragged a load of terminators, glanced a 2 hp off a Contemptor and some other things im sure, so did the job. I might look at plasma though and playtest

 

I'm pretty sure id have won this if I hadn't constantly picked objectives which were in his deployment zone! But that's the game!

[Caustic63]

My idea to trial the preds was to keep them cheap, and keep them dakka ish. Surprisingly they didn't get shot at with anything nasty really until t3, and one of them died.

They fragged a load of terminators, glanced a 2 hp off a Contemptor and some other things im sure, so did the job. I might look at plasma though and playtest

 

I'm pretty sure id have won this if I hadn't constantly picked objectives which were in his deployment zone! But that's the game!

 

Cheap, shooting Predators are good in smaller point games (where the high strength low AP weapons are too expensive to fit into a good list) but once you expand beyond 2000 they become just a minor annoyance to your opponent that he can afford to ignore until T3. Executioner Predators can almost never be ignored (especially in Marine on Marine battles) and unless your opponent is spamming flyers and Land Raiders they won't be wanting for targets. 'Strike' Predators with Autocannons get a lot of shots, but for a better point to point value a Sicarian gets Fast, Ignore Jink, Twin-Linked, and Rending.

 

IMO the most effective Emperor's Children armies are designed around fast, positional lists featuring units like Skyhunters, Javelins, Outriders, Jump Pack Palatines, Fire Raptors, Machine Spirit Predators, Sicarians of both types, Primaris-Lightnings and Malcadors. Many of these units benefit from the Maru Skara (which I think is the best positional Rite of War in the game) allowing you to prepare devastating Outflank ambushes that few other legions can reliably attempt.

 

The most effective legions in the current meta-game (Alpha Legion and Raven Guard) rely on alpha-strike attacks against gunline armies (such as Imperial Fists, Iron Hands and Iron Warriors) via Infiltrate or Drop Pods to get in their face and eliminate the most threatening static units. A Maru Skara Emperor's Children army has its most effective units arrive in Turn 2, allowing you to deploy your Outflankers wherever they are needed to mitigate their first turn advantage.

[Theredknight]

I think im playing against Knights in a 3k army.. How the heck would I deal with those monstrosities?!

[Hesh Kadesh]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305009-bring-it-down-facing-down-knight-titans-in-30k/

[Theredknight]

A good thread, but jo real answers apart from 'play iron hands or a primarch'

I might proxy a couple of the new vindis. 2 deredeos and some outflanking graviton temptors..

[Hesh Kadesh]

Really?

 

From the top;

 

2x Deredeo's on the flanks

Culverin's + Misfortune

Allied Knights

Sicaran Venators for the forcing Snap Shot

Scorpius

Tank Hunting Missile Launchers, Medusa, Kheres Contemptors

Fist armed Terminators

Tank Hunting Lightning Primaris with Autocannons

Squads with Meltabombs

Primarch

Warhound Titans

Deep Strikers with Melta (in Pods)

Deep Strikers with Haywire (on Land Speeders)

Allied Solar Auxilia with Haywire Grenades

Barrage Weapons

 

I guess we didn't read the same thread that I linked then.

[Theredknight]

We probably did. But no tactics on it, just mainly units.

 

Plus il be arrayed against 3/4 Titans at the 3500 range at least. With mechanicum support.

 

I don't know much about Knights I know they are 6hp, with a13 front and bringing a lot of pain.

 

so lets go through your list :

 

Tank hunting missile launchers are imperial fists aren't they?

 

Squads with meltas will get destroyed in combat by one? And what squads are we talking about here?

 

Why fists on Termies instead of chainfists? How to transport them up there?

 

With EC, is the best chance to not stand and shoot so much, but hide as best I can and flank? Temptors in combat will just blow over, but the grav guns could be worth a shot or 2? Assuming in range. In which case, sacrificial legion dreads?

 

Jetbikes with a melta? Bombs will be useless really as it has a str d weapon you'd be lucky to get one bomb off. And youv sacrificed a pointless unit?

 

How will you deep strike meltas in a pod unless you take that row?

 

Auto cannons on men?

 

Deredeos is a good idea, il have to assemble both ready..

[Slips]

Tank Hunter is easily gained and conferred with a Siege Breaker. He gives it automatically to Heavy Support Squads that he joins.

 

10 Man Tac Support with Melta Guns in a Drop Pod can: Wreck any vehicle they come near even those with armored Ceramite AND Negate FNP on anything T4 They're shooting at and ID Multi-Wound models such as Characters, Red Butchers, Fire Drakes and other such terminators.

 

Fists or Chainfists on Terminators are fair enough. Either shove 5 into a Fast Attack drop pod, Ally in Night Lords or Imperial Fists for Deep Strike or run Orbital Assault. Only other option is a Land Raider/Spartan, a Storm Eagle or Footslogging.

 

Cheap Haywire Dreads are meh, I don't care much for them but they can be a good sacrificial unit with decent odds of doing some damage.

 

MM Jetbikes can circle around to the back of a Knight quite Easily and hit its Av 12 side or rear which will be unlikely to be Ion Shielded if you play it right. They also dont get Armored Ceramite. Hello 2Dice Pen Rolls.

 

Anvillus Drop Pods. Can be taken as Fast Attack.

 

Autocannons on Men? Not worth it so much. On a Primaris that could more readily get Side or Rear + Tank Hunter? A bit better.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Slipstreams

[Caustic63]

Realistically, Quad Gun Rapiers would be pretty good versus Imperial Knights, as would Outflanking Missile Javelins (which could create an opening by attacking from a different angle so as to circumvent his directional shielding.

 

I do feel like pure Knights lists can be daunting to deal with, especially for 30K armies without a lot of anti-tank, but there are tools as well as techniques for fighting them. As an army built around a few super heavies they are innately going to have issues with scoring, positioning, and making their points back over the course of a game.

[Theredknight]

Hmm good points!

 

A squad of 10 autocannons or volkite culverins with a master of signals and maybe apothecary will help you think? It's an expensive unit, I think the Knights instant kill marines don't they.

 

I ss think about a set of three quad mortars, I suppose it's about positioning as well.

 

I'm thinking that I won't take the fellblade, but will have to bust out the warhound with 2 turbo lasers instead. There's not much points difference by the time youv upgraded the blade anyway.

 

Flanking Termies in a land raider maybe? Or Achilles alpha? I'm worried abouts the strength d combat weapon, and their speed.. Those units are cheap for what they have!!

[Memento Of Prospero]

Breachers + melta bombs. Glorious tarpit that wrecks knights.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Breachers + melta bombs. Glorious tarpit that wrecks knights.

 

A bit expensive but would work pretty well. Just hope you can assure mutually assured destruction with the knight. The only thing stopping it is a stomp and that the knight can out maneuver it if your not carful.

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

Breachers + melta bombs. Glorious tarpit that wrecks knights.

 

A bit expensive but would work pretty well. Just hope you can assure mutually assured destruction with the knight. The only thing stopping it is a stomp and that the knight can out maneuver it if your not carful.

 

 

the average knight doesn't great anti tank shooting ability. To get you off of your objectives he will want to close the distance. Futhermore, unless he rolls a 6 on the stomp table, Breachers will hold their ground and apothecary all day and can blow one into oblivion in a single round of combat.

[Theredknight]

Well the knight was dealt with, successfully forced him to choose a side and side armoured him with the new vindi. It's a beast.

 

So new topic,

What do we think of taking malgohurst and a 15 man tooled reaver squad as allies outflanking with jump packs. Eidolon can join and gain extra charge range and his sweep advantage?

They come in the same cost as a tooled palatine squad, and muchore suitable with the rules.

Who knows, maybe even get a sweep off!!

[Hesh Kadesh]

I like it. Only trick is no assault until 3rd turn and

[Caustic63]

Well the knight was dealt with, successfully forced him to choose a side and side armoured him with the new vindi. It's a beast.

 

So new topic,

What do we think of taking malgohurst and a 15 man tooled reaver squad as allies outflanking with jump packs. Eidolon can join and gain extra charge range and his sweep advantage?

They come in the same cost as a tooled palatine squad, and muchore suitable with the rules.

Who knows, maybe even get a sweep off!!

 

It's nice to hear you are learning the right way to deal with Knights! Their Ion Shield rule makes them particularly vulnerable to Outflankers which we provide whole heartedly. I have to disagree with you on the topic of Maloghurst allying in Reavers from Sons of Horus and using them to replace Palatine Blades though. Compared to PBs, Reavers don't have Counter Attack, Chosen Warriors, high weapon skill or high initiative. They also wouldn't show up as reliably as PBs in a Maru Skara list, and pay a lot more for their weapons. PBs come standard as above average close combat units with Charnabal Sabres/ lots of attacks, and when you add in cheap Power Swords and reasonable Spears they become a gold standard non-terminator CC unit.

 

Not to mention that Maloghurst is basically a tax, since his stats and equipment are pretty poor apart from his Legion Standard (which doesn't give scoring if hes allied cause he can't be your warlord). Since you've taken him you need a squad to put him in, and no Emperor's Children squad likes him since he takes away basically all bonuses granted by the Crusader rule. So from a logical point of view, Maloghurst and Reavers don't bring much as allies (SoH Veterans would probably make more sense).

[Theredknight]

yes, mal is a bit crap, but thought to

Stick him in a back squad or something.

 

The prize is the reavers, the reason I thought those is because frankly, although blades are nice, they are a glass hammer, and don't have a lot of staying power after first combat, going to ap3 and losing the attack hurts, especially if Youv lost one to overwatch, couple in the combat etc.

 

Reavers have staying power, bonus attacks for outnumber and they have the advantage of numbers. Plus you can equip a few with pwr weapons to make it count. Oh and I get to paint some green

[Theredknight]

I wrote this earlier while waiting for surgery :

 

Ok, so here's a little list designed to utilise Maru skara a bit more. (Also including my new additions)

 

Eidolon

 

Standard Maru champ ( spear and shield)

 

15 tacs bp ccw vex, buffed sgt

 

15 tacs, additional ccw, vex buffed sgt

 

Apothecaries x2 pwr wep, ahh scanner.

 

Contemptor talon

 

Temptor 1 chainfist, ccw, 2x grav guns

 

Temptor 2 twin kheres

 

Temptor 3 chainfist, ccw, 2x melta

 

Legion vets

Rhino, dozer, combi melta

10 sniper vets, 2 plasma guns.

 

9 palatine blades

5 spears

 

Dreadclaw drop pod.

 

Plasma preds x2, dozers

 

Autocannon deredeo, launcher

 

Vindicator, laser destroyer array, dozer, machine spirit.

 

After playing a fair amount with these guys, I think this list should be one of the best available, with possible tweaking.

 

I struggled with staying power on the board, before, then I got armoured up.

 

It gives good size Tac squad blobs, and target saturation for armour for the t1 brace for incoming fire.

 

Plan being drop pod drops and burns If possible, with eidolon and blades, jinks anything incoming, and hopefully survives a round of shooting.

 

I have wondered if Id

Be better off with more bodies instead of eidolon, or an assault squad instead of the blades..his hammer is pretty swish, and he's knocked the crap out of castellex before.

Id be worried about a t2 combat if I didn't win and they run, because then we are suffering counter charges and fairly meagre combat chances etc.

 

Advantage of assault marines is a bit of staying power, manoeuvrability and ability to hold out for support (running Tac squad) blades are a bit of an expensive glass hammer unfortunately if used in this way iv found.

 

I think with the amount of targets available, the threat ratio for the pod will be fairly low, preds will be almost sacrificial, is it worth even spending the points for plasma? As they always seem to get popped t1/2 anyway, 70 points could go into something else.

 

3 outflanking temptors in your face will get anyone worried, should destroy transports and hopefully I can use them to shield each other a little. It gives the vets or blades a chance to get at the meat inside. 2 for armour and one to clean up some infantry with those kheres. I could take 3 kheres temptors of course..

 

Vets will be snipering Termies and champions etc. Or whoever is available. Possibly worth sticking a couple of power weapons there for a future charge, couple of axes or swords maybe.

 

The other option instead of these would be 2 more legion dreads with plasma fists.(could be fun!)

 

What do you guys think? Temptors and vindi should force any Knights to choose armour sides, vindi has the punch to get through that front armour and 2/3 shots should glance on rear armour of anything. Seems a pretty good plan?

[Caustic63]

I like this list. I have a few questions though. Are the Veterans in their Rhino outflanking? This seems like the best way to use them in this army considering that having a single Rhino sitting on your side of the board Turn 1 is just asking to give up First Blood. Also, what is your plan for the Legion Champion? It seems like he has more to offer the Tactical Squad he's in if he's given a Sonic Shrieker and Meltabombs.