Community project : Let's found a Chapter ! (Phase 3 & 4)

[ElectricPaladin]

Personally, I like the idea of making them a relatively recent founding. That would work nicely with their aggressive stance and religious veneration of the Emperor.

[Stercus]

I'd be casting a vote for a mid level founding. I think anything too recent and they'd not have time to really develop such a divergent religious cult and establish it properly. How about something in the region of 5th-9th founding?

As far as the empire idea goes, I'd quite like to think of the chapter being founded as a straight-up Ultramarines-clone and given a world to rule/defend. Over time, they expand their influence over neighbouring planets, with one of the first being a jungly deathworld containing large feline predators and a human society of sun worshipping blood sacrificing tribal savages. After absorbing this world into their influence, the Knights begin to recruit there due to the population's inherent toughness and stable genetic base. (Kept strong through millennia of intertribal warfare). Although seeing themselves very much as descendants of Guilliman, the chapter begin to absorb parts of the deathworld culture, and over millennia become the Knights Panthera we see today. Basically, they start as franko-Saxons and then become Aztecs later.

What I think is important is too make sure we leave plenty of time for the two cultures to mix and absorb each other. I think it would be a shame if we ended up with a chapter that was Aztec-Saxon-Frankish but only because some of the marines are Aztecs and some are Saxons. We need to be conscious that we are creating a single culture, not just cramming two seperate groups together.

[Quozzo]

I agree with Stercus.

 

Although, chapters don't usually absorb their recruiting worlds into their own beliefs, it can happen. But to be honest, it would make more sense if the chapter was similar to the Aztecs and then afterwards started to venerate their veterans as aspirants were now being recruited from Saxon-esque society and the new neophytes wanted hear stories about the great heroes due their own beliefs that the more kills a brother has deserves greater respect from his peers, or more captives.

[Gorkimedes]

Maybe 10th founding? That puts them at around M.35 so the Ecclesiarchy and worship of the Emperor has been widespread for a few thousand years and no training cadre will include individuals from the beginning of the Imperium but there's 5000 years to develop their own beliefs. 

[GreyCrow]

Hey guys, sorry for the delay in the response, I got a bit sick this week and couldn't really focus on the project :) Let's push the deadline to Monday 12:00 am GMT, I'll have time tomorrow to read through all the contributions and contribute myself ;)

[Tiberius Cato]

Have we discussed how the chapter views regular imperials? I think that will be an important element since they'll have a small collection of worlds under their wing. There is likely to be a regiment or two of the Miilitarum present. Do you think they would throw them at enemy lines, or perhaps they use the Militarum as their flanking element while the marines act as the heavy infantry (a la Saxons).

[Gorkimedes]

I could see them having a certain amount of standard Astartes indifference, using troops however best to accomplish their goals. Try to limit casualties if only to save resources but not hesitating to sacrifice them when necessary.

 

Maybe serfs from their home-world help oversee the chapters treaties and connections with other worlds? No reason for to tie up warriors in bureaucracy when you could send a trusted citizen.

[Tiberius Cato]

I could see them having a certain amount of standard Astartes indifference, using troops however best to accomplish their goals. Try to limit casualties if only to save resources but not hesitating to sacrifice them when necessary.

 

Maybe serfs from their home-world help oversee the chapters treaties and connections with other worlds? No reason for to tie up warriors in bureaucracy when you could send a trusted citizen.

Sounds good to me. Does the chapter still step in when the world's compliance is found lacking? Or do they leave it to the appointed bureaucrat take care of business?

[Gorkimedes]

In my head I was picturing something like.

 

World is attacked by random xenos horde, everything is getting wrecked. The Imperial forces that come to aid in the defense include some Knights Panthera, who find the PDF not up to par and the planets defenses sub-standard.

 

After the battle is won the Knights Panthera leave behind a representative, who reports to them, with a list of stipulations that the locals need to comply with. Prepare better for next time, increase your tithe of men and women to the guard etc. Maybe the position is permanent or other times the appointed overseer hangs around for a few decades?

[ElectricPaladin]

In my head I was picturing something like.

 

World is attacked by random xenos horde, everything is getting wrecked. The Imperial forces that come to aid in the defense include some Knights Panthera, who find the PDF not up to par and the planets defenses sub-standard.

 

After the battle is won the Knights Panthera leave behind a representative, who reports to them, with a list of stipulations that the locals need to comply with. Prepare better for next time, increase your tithe of men and women to the guard etc. Maybe the position is permanent or other times the appointed overseer hangs around for a few decades?

 

I think it's a permanent position - it plays up the Knights Panthera's arrogance and domineering nature, that they expect any world they rescue ti permanently change its ways, and they leave behind a well-equipped badass serf to make it happen!

[Tiberius Cato]

Since they have a permanent position, is a serf responsible for creating and maintaining a PDF and coordinating with the Munitorum? Would this mean the chapter has regiments of the Militarum at it's disposal?

 

That could definitely change combat doctrine when you have hordes of soldiers to assist the chapter. That could make them even moreso aggressive, since they have an almost endless supply of scapegoats to cover their advance.

[Black Cohort]

Since they have a permanent position, is a serf responsible for creating and maintaining a PDF and coordinating with the Munitorum? Would this mean the chapter has regiments of the Militarum at it's disposal?

 

That could definitely change combat doctrine when you have hordes of soldiers to assist the chapter. That could make them even moreso aggressive, since they have an almost endless supply of scapegoats to cover their advance.

I would say not. The serf is there to provide advice and to ensure the planet is worthy of protection, but actual governance should be left to planetary government.

[ElectricPaladin]

 

Since they have a permanent position, is a serf responsible for creating and maintaining a PDF and coordinating with the Munitorum? Would this mean the chapter has regiments of the Militarum at it's disposal?

 

That could definitely change combat doctrine when you have hordes of soldiers to assist the chapter. That could make them even moreso aggressive, since they have an almost endless supply of scapegoats to cover their advance.

I would say not. The serf is there to provide advice and to ensure the planet is worthy of protection, but actual governance should be left to planetary government.

 

But I do think that the serf comes with a fairly powerful cadre of "bodyguards," usually just elite serfs with combat training, but potentially sometimes including a demi-squad of Astartes (either newly elevated scouts or Astartes working off some dishonor), which means that sometimes his advice is "advice."

[Black Cohort]

True, but even "advice" is different from actually commanding the PDF.

[ElectricPaladin]

True, but even "advice" is different from actually commanding the PDF.

 

Yes.

 

Though, I don't think anything is stopping the planet from deciding that navigating this situation is just too complicated and making the serf the governor/PDF commander/both. It's probably happened. In the chapter's vast history, it's probably even happened because the serf decided that this would be expedient and used his influence to "convince" the planetary authorities to get out of his way.

 

But no, I don't think that governance of the planet or command of the PDF are the serf's goals... I just don't think that the Knights Panthera do anything to prevent that from happening, either.

[Black Cohort]

 

 

True, but even "advice" is different from actually commanding the PDF.

Yes.

 

Though, I don't think anything is stopping the planet from deciding that navigating this situation is just too complicated and making the serf the governor/PDF commander/both. It's probably happened. In the chapter's vast history, it's probably even happened because the serf decided that this would be expedient and used his influence to "convince" the planetary authorities to get out of his way.

 

But no, I don't think that governance of the planet or command of the PDF are the serf's goals... I just don't think that the Knights Panthera do anything to prevent that from happening, either.

I think this is good compromise, it happens but it isn't the reason the Knights Panthera do it. And it might even be a result of a serf going beyond his instructions for personal gain/ power.

 

Perhaps the Knights Panthera have even had to step in to deal with serfs who went beyond their orders.

[ElectricPaladin]

True, but even "advice" is different from actually commanding the PDF.

Yes.

Though, I don't think anything is stopping the planet from deciding that navigating this situation is just too complicated and making the serf the governor/PDF commander/both. It's probably happened. In the chapter's vast history, it's probably even happened because the serf decided that this would be expedient and used his influence to "convince" the planetary authorities to get out of his way.

But no, I don't think that governance of the planet or command of the PDF are the serf's goals... I just don't think that the Knights Panthera do anything to prevent that from happening, either.

I think this is good compromise, it happens but it isn't the reason the Knights Panthera do it. And it might even be a result of a serf going beyond his instructions for personal gain/ power.

Perhaps the Knights Panthera have even had to step in to deal with serfs who went beyond their orders.

But, I think they'd only do that if the result was that something bad happened. As in, if the serf bit off more than he could chew, turned out to be incompetent, found himself faced with a planetary uprising he couldn't control, turned to Chaos, became corrupt and inefficient, etc. The Knights Panthera don't really care of the serfs they leave behind engineer a coup so they can become local despots. It's not against their rules or anything - and besides, sometimes that's what it takes to bring a planet around. But, they do consider it their responsibility to correct the serf they leave behind to restructure the planet if he screws it up.

EDIT: But I want to stress that I really do like the idea of putting it into the Knights Panthera's history that they have had to go back to previously conquered planets to deal with the consequences of the serf they left behind turning out to be the wrong man for the job, for one of several possible reasons. Possibly they've done it several times - once or twice "gently" (ie. retiring the serf and replacing him, possibly with local leadership this time) and once or twice with extreme force (ie. that one time the serf fell in with the remains of the cult the Knights had conquered in the first place, pledged himself to Slaanesh, and crazy went down).

[Tiberius Cato]

I like that, the remote rulers thing is nice. Maybe amassing a massive PDF isn't always for personal gain, maybe the serf looks at it like he's honouring his masters with a force to be reckoned with. But the :cuss hits the fan and the serf is killed and anarchy rages across the world, the massive PDF turned into renegades and began spreading amonst the Knights Panthera's worlds. Thus forcing the chapter to withdraw from whatever campaign they were on to quell the uprising, or risk losing their recruiting base and supply chains.

 

Just out of curiosity, how many worlds do we think is in the Knights Panthera's empire? I'm thinking there's likely around 15; two of them being recruiting worlds, one the homeworld, a reclaimed forgeworld (Not controlled by the chapter, but since it was rediscovered by them the Mechanicus is willing to send a few extra things their way), multiple agri and mining worlds, maybe a shrine world, and whatever else they may have under their command.

[Black Cohort]

I like that, the remote rulers thing is nice. Maybe amassing a massive PDF isn't always for personal gain, maybe the serf looks at it like he's honouring his masters with a force to be reckoned with. But the :cuss hits the fan and the serf is killed and anarchy rages across the world, the massive PDF turned into renegades and began spreading amonst the Knights Panthera's worlds. Thus forcing the chapter to withdraw from whatever campaign they were on to quell the uprising, or risk losing their recruiting base and supply chains.

 

Just out of curiosity, how many worlds do we think is in the Knights Panthera's empire? I'm thinking there's likely around 15; two of them being recruiting worlds, one the homeworld, a reclaimed forgeworld (Not controlled by the chapter, but since it was rediscovered by them the Mechanicus is willing to send a few extra things their way), multiple agri and mining worlds, maybe a shrine world, and whatever else they may have under their command.

I think the number would fluctuate. A small core of worlds in a couple of systems. Then varying levels of connection in nearby systems, most of which wouldn't have the serf replaced once his task was done.

 

Thus you would have a core of maybe 5-6 worlds that are considered knights Panthera "territory" then a bunch of worlds spread throughout nearby space that have been "blessed" with a serf being sent to sort things out.

[Gorkimedes]

So the relationship might be like the world in Titanicus? A forgeworld with both an imperial governor and a fabricator general with no one being quite sure who gets final say.

[Black Cohort]

So the relationship might be like the world in Titanicus? A forgeworld with both an imperial governor and a fabricator general with no one being quite sure who gets final say.

Maybe, I would say in most cases the serf sent to the planet has no official role. Just whatever influence being the representative of a space marine chapter would have. Particularly since they are normally sent to world's found lacking

[Stercus]

I'm liking the idea of this mini-empire. Especially the idea of control being quite loose with at least a couple of failed episodes in the past. I think its important to emphasise that the Knights Panthera are not infallible. Certainly our guys would not be adverse to executing one of their own if they're not up to scratch.

[Tiberius Cato]

I'm liking the idea of this mini-empire. Especially the idea of control being quite loose with at least a couple of failed episodes in the past. I think its important to emphasise that the Knights Panthera are not infallible. Certainly our guys would not be adverse to executing one of their own if they're not up to scratch.

Are you saying that they summarily execute brother Astartess, or the serfs? I think having a... reluctant (for lack of a better word) collection of worlds that every now and then rebel is an importnat aspect. They are not the Ultramarines, not everything is perfect and goes their way.

 

I think we may have covered all that need be covered, unless someone has a proposal for another thing that is part of the chapter's beliefs. Like perhaps the cult aspect might benefit from some more detailing?

 

I can't wait for the finalisation of colours, I must make a small squad of these guys.

[Stercus]

I was thinking more that their serfs and representatives would feel the business end of an obsidian dagger if they stepped out of line.

 

As regards the Primarch pantheon, I'm running a bit dry to be honest.

[Tiberius Cato]

As regards the Primarch pantheon, I'm running a bit dry to be honest.

That's the only part I'm stuck on, I have no idea how to develop it further. But we could always save it for later.